Interpreting the scripture

[Peds nurse]

Hello people!!

I have talked with a couple of non believers who are somewhat disturbed when Christians claim to interpret or have more insight to scripture than they do. I am wondering why this is an issue? If we read multiple books on electric conductivity of the brain, and how various diseases interfere with that process, would we claim to know as much as a neurologist?

I don't think that Christians are claiming that nonbelievers are incompetent in any way, or that they lack the skills to interpret scripture, rather I believe it is because we as Christians, have God living in us (His Spirit), giving us discernment in how to apply and live out those scriptures in our life (New Testament).

Question for debate: Do you think it is reasonable to think that Christians have an advantage over nonbelievers in interpreting scripture? Why do some find this claim offensive?

HAPPY 4TH of JULY!!!

[Korah]

[Replying to post 1 by Peds nurse]

Thanks, PN.
Yes, I commend you for your confidence in God working through you. I don't doubt that.

Unfortunately God's work in us focuses mainly on the Good, rather than the True.
That glow we get from God we misunderstand as necessarily telling us what Christian Truth is

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Korah!!!

Isn't the truth of God, ultimately good? God's work in us cannot go against the scripture, and His work in us can only be good, regardless of how it makes us feel.

So how is it that there are so many denominations, many of which (basically ANY that have been around long enough) kill other Christians?

Can you please be more specific here? Give examples of what you are referring to?

I'm thinking you're seeing me as meaning that lots of denominations of Christians go around persecuting and killing other Christians. No, if you meant that, that does not happen any more. Except you might say SOMETHING LIKE THAT does happen all the time, that one "Christian" nation goes to war against another Christian nation and kills millions of Christians on the battlefield and maybe even kills millions of civilians by bombing, etc.
Actually what I was talking about was the HISTORY of Chriistianity. Even in the relatively early Church whatever "Christians" had the upper hand might well kill "heretics". We don't have any of that in the Bible, of course, but one might say that the sentiment was already there in the I John condemnation of those with the spirit of the Antichrist. (As for myself, I always found I John my favorite letter of the NT--go figure.) Priscillian and some followers were killed around 384, the start perhaps of 1400 years of Christianity having the civil power to kill for no other reason than being on the wrong Christian side, but the worst examples came in the 13th Century.
Obviously Roman Catholics killed other Christians, but all the early Protestants were as ready to kill other Christians. Even the Quakers in the 17th Century emerged as quite obstreperous souls, but who never had the opportunity to reciprocate the hate inflicted upon them. Only sects emerging in the 18th Century (like Methodism) seemed to be free of the urge to kill other Christians. (Full disclosure: I was raised as a Methodist.)

None of us should delude ourselves that we can know that other Christian denominations are false, maybe even demonic, that we can cavalierly call most other Christians not Christians at all.

I am not debating whether or not other denominations are true or false, I am debating why some nonbelievers get frustrated when Christians claim to interpret scripture more accurately.

[Hamsaka]

Hello people!!

I have talked with a couple of non believers who are somewhat disturbed when Christians claim to interpret or have more insight to scripture than they do. I am wondering why this is an issue? If we read multiple books on electric conductivity of the brain, and how various diseases interfere with that process, would we claim to know as much as a neurologist?

The logical 'lapse' I see there is comparing Christian believers' 'authority' to interpret scripture with a neurologists' 'authority' to interpret MRIs or findings of a neuro assessment.

The relationship of a Christian with their sacred scripture and a neurologist with his/her knowledge base is a different kind of relationship. The former is deeply dependent upon faith and subjective resonances, and the latter is dependent upon evidence-based theory and application.

Which brings me 'round to the issue of "Christian authority", based upon faith and belief, as a less accurate measure of objective truth than an evidence-based approach. I'm not granting Christian faith any special permissions based on the faith-based claims used to support their faith-based claims , instead I'm putting Christian faith-based interpretation on par, no special permissions, with evidence-based interpretations (such as a neurologist would use for MRIs).

In general; faith-based claims fare poorly, in terms of truth-aptness, than evidence-based claims.

Now, people being offended that Christian's claim authority in scripture interpretation can be offended for many reasons, including it being human nature to get offended when someone else says they are better at something than you . That's silly, especially when they are. I've put more thought into it than taking it as a blow to my pride, of which I have rather the opposite when it comes to knowing scripture the way some o' these folks (theist and nontheist) around here do.

I don't think that Christians are claiming that nonbelievers are incompetent in any way, or that they lack the skills to interpret scripture, rather I believe it is because we as Christians, have God living in us (His Spirit), giving us discernment in how to apply and live out those scriptures in our life (New Testament).

That sounds completely reasonable, and only once in a while have I witnessed (IRL or otherwise) a Christian insisting nonbelievers are incompetent to interpret scripture. More often this sentiment is cloaked and then abandoned when the heat gets turned on beneath it, because it really is an ignorant and prideful thing to say out loud, and people know that and are ashamed to have their ignorance or pride displayed in all it's glory.

Question for debate: Do you think it is reasonable to think that Christians have an advantage over nonbelievers in interpreting scripture? Why do some find this claim offensive?

HAPPY 4TH of JULY!!!

You too Guess what I'm doing? Working. Yes, that's right, nurses wouldn't know a holiday or a weekend if it slapped them upside the head (except that they mean 'premium pay'). My little guy is too medically fragile to attend a fireworks show so we're going to sit in the back yard and blow bubbles with his bubble machine which will probably entertain me at least as much as him.

IMO, it IS reasonable to think that Christians have some advantage over nonbelievers when interpreting scripture.

That is, until a nonbeliever (an ex-Christian perhaps, or a nonbeliever who is fascinated with religious literature, or a biblical scholar) comes along with some powerful and thorough applied knowledge of biblical scripture. Then, it is reasonable to amend the above.

When it comes to interpretation (of anything), 'the act of explaining something', a person using basic reasoning skills needs to have a knowledge foundation in what they're interpreting.

That knowledge foundation can be had by anyone, regardless of their persuasion, right? We can think, and learn and know that way regardless of any preference or aversion to the subject, and naturally, our interpretations will be colored by preference or aversion.

And (ideally) a person attempting to be reasonable will avoid overly emotional interpretations, because emotions cause our reasoning to become increasingly self-referential, rather than inclusive of pertinent details one is averse to, or over-glorifying details one is very fond of. Facts are notoriously indifferent to what a person thinks about them. Like Haven said in another thread, when folks believed the Earth was flat, it did not make the Earth flat. It was still nice and round.

That said, it is also reasonable to consider that some Christians, due to the mechanics of faith-based interpretation, may overly value or neglect scriptural meaning. Especially if cognitive dissonance shows up, and faith is felt to be threatened.

Blanket generalizations are unfair and end in error, inevitably. So going on a case-by-case basis will determine who's got the most accurate interp. And even then, the best interpretation of religious scriptures is by the nature of scripture, going to be imprecise. Religious belief (and scripture interpretation) as applied to LIFE is naturally going to carry out as subjective and personal, which is evidenced by all the different Christian sects (much less world religions). I know people call each other 'wrong' all the time when it comes to interpreting scripture, and the irony is their 'right' interpretation was arrived at in exactly the same way as the 'wrong' one -- filtered through unexamined mental and emotional biases, none of which can be shown to be 'true'.

[Stonez]

I have talked with a couple of non believers who are somewhat disturbed when Christians claim to interpret or have more insight to scripture than they do. I am wondering why this is an issue? If we read multiple books on electric conductivity of the brain, and how various diseases interfere with that process, would we claim to know as much as a neurologist?

With your analogy, wouldn't it be more accurate to say the Christian is the Amateur and the Scholar is the expert?

I don't think that Christians are claiming that nonbelievers are incompetent in any way, or that they lack the skills to interpret scripture, rather I believe it is because we as Christians, have God living in us (His Spirit), giving us discernment in how to apply and live out those scriptures in our life (New Testament).

Don't you mean "We Christians Believe we have god's spirit"? Considering there is zero evidence for your claim, Isn't this just a Christian attempt at taking the high ground?

Question for debate: Do you think it is reasonable to think that Christians have an advantage over nonbelievers in interpreting scripture?

No, not at all. I don't think it comes down to Christian and non believer. I think it comes down to education...Some Christians haven't a clue what's in the bible. Some non believers like myself have spent decades in study and research on the bible and it's historical contexts. So, it isn't as simple as claiming Christians understand scripture just because they are believers and ?Have gods spirit?

I wont argue that a Christians should know the bible better than most non believers but I would argue that it is those non believers and scholars who study it for it's true written context who do know it best. Religious views can easily taint peoples view of the bible...

Why do some find this claim offensive?

Hmm, does this offend you;

My non believers view of Scripture is far superior to most Christians due to my Biblical education. Most Christians lack a good education to start with and have trouble reading the bible in it's true context...

There are different ways of reading the bible and reading it through faith and religion rarely gives you the true interpretation. When taken in it's historical context, the non believer and scholars understanding of scripture is far superior to those of faith.

[Haven]

[Replying to post 1 by Peds nurse]

I have noticed this as well, and it has often confused me. Even if we take an entirely atheistic standpoint and say nothing about the Spirit of God, shouldn’t a reasonable atheist realize that someone who currently spends time studying the scriptures is likely to have a better understanding of the scriptures than someone who doesn’t?

This assumes atheists/secularists/non-believers don't study the scriptures, but many of us do. I definitely do (for academic and intellectual reasons), even though I'm far from Christian. It also assumes atheists/secularists/non-believers were never Christian, but that's often not the case.

[bjs]

This assumes atheists/secularists/non-believers don't study the scriptures, but many of us do. I definitely do (for academic and intellectual reasons), even though I'm far from Christian.

Some non-Christians have studied the scriptures. However, a common (though of course not universal) practice among Protestants is to devote a portion of every day to studying the scriptures. Such a practice is exceedingly rare among non-Christians. You claim to study the Christians scriptures for “academic and intellectual reasons.� Are you saying that you read the Christian scriptures every day? If so, you are a rarity among non-theists. If not, then you do not study the scriptures as much as an average, non-academic Christian who is active in her faith. This says nothing of those who are both devote Christians and who are involved in the academic study of the scriptures.

It also assumes atheists/secularists/non-believers were never Christian, but that's often not the case.

Yet my experience – and I claim this as nothing more than my personal experience on this forum and in other areas of life – is that who claim to be former Christians tend to have the least clear understanding of the Christian scriptures and Christianity in general. The tendency to “have an ax to grind� is exceedingly pervasive.

Even setting that aside, those who are currently studying the scriptures are more likely to have complete understanding of them than those who studying the scriptures years ago.

Of course we need to be careful not to paint everyone with a broad brush. For instance, on this forum there have been a handful of non-Christians who seemed to have a strong grasp on Christian teaching and on the Bible. But they were by far the exception to the rule. And understandably so. Since most non-Christians do not study the Bible as much as Christians, we should rightly expect non-Christian to have a less firm grasp on the larger context of the Bible.

[tokutter]

[Replying to post 1 by Peds nurse]

question 1

Peds if you believe you have "the" GOD living inside you........Why would you need to study anything???

question2

Peds if indeed "the" GOD........has in fact lived inside christians and "guided" them.......shouldn't after 1500 plus years it all be settled by now instead of more and more fracturing of christianity

question3

Peds...since "the" GOD lives inside you I would assume YOU absolutely know what a "true christian" is......can you provide us...... the unwashed nonbelieving simpletons with some sort of mechanism of how to discern the "real christians" from the others.


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[Stonez]

I don't mean to intrude on Havens response as I know she can probably answer this better than me but it was hard to not say anything to these claims bjs...

This assumes atheists/secularists/non-believers don't study the scriptures, but many of us do. I definitely do (for academic and intellectual reasons), even though I'm far from Christian.

Some non-Christians have studied the scriptures. However, a common (though of course not universal) practice among Protestants is to devote a portion of every day to studying the scriptures. Such a practice is exceedingly rare among non-Christians. You claim to study the Christians scriptures for “academic and intellectual reasons.� Are you saying that you read the Christian scriptures every day? If so, you are a rarity among non-theists. If not, then you do not study the scriptures as much as an average, non-academic Christian who is active in her faith. This says nothing of those who are both devote Christians and who are involved in the academic study of the scriptures.

The problem with the view of a Christian while reading is that it is tainted by their faith and beliefs. This causes a lot of Christians to read it as though it is a personal message to them. They also study the scriptures with the assumption that it is without error and that causes Christians to make errors constantly.

So, in my experience with Christianity, I find their methods corrupted and therefore they can rarely get to the bottom of the understanding of the writer. Christians also restrict themselves strictly to Christian sources. This again dwarfs their biblical education...

I don't think memorising and quoting certain scriptures is studying the bible and I don't think reading special feel good passages to strengthen ones faith is studying the scriptures either and that is how a lot of Christians use the bible.

Getting up every day and studying scripture, like I used to as a Christian, does nothing for understanding the bible if ones approach is as above and in my experience, that is how most Christians approach the bible.

A non believer reads and studies the bible for no other reason but to understand it. The person of faith reads it to strengthen their faith and help them feel better about themselves. That to me is not a good way to study the bible.

It also assumes atheists/secularists/non-believers were never Christian, but that's often not the case.

Yet my experience – and I claim this as nothing more than my personal experience on this forum and in other areas of life – is that who claim to be former Christians tend to have the least clear understanding of the Christian scriptures and Christianity in general. The tendency to “have an ax to grind� is exceedingly pervasive.

And yet in my experience over the years, it seems to me that Christians generally believe what they are told over the pulpit or from a denominational perspective. I see this corrupt pretty much every Christian I meet, causing them to have a corrupted view of scripture...

In other words, not many Christians study the scriptures outside their own indoctrination. That to me is not studying the scriptures...

On the other hand, ex Christians are usually ex Christians because of extensive biblical study, like myself. It was true, real biblical study that lead me out of a faith like Christianity that dose not work.

Even setting that aside, those who are currently studying the scriptures are more likely to have complete understanding of them than those who studying the scriptures years ago.

Those who study the scriptures from outside sources, like history or even Scholarly views are the ones studying scripture. Studying scripture to amplify ones faith is not true biblical research imo...

Of course we need to be careful not to paint everyone with a broad brush. For instance, on this forum there have been a handful of non-Christians who seemed to have a strong grasp on Christian teaching and on the Bible. But they were by far the exception to the rule. And understandably so. Since most non-Christians do not study the Bible as much as Christians, we should rightly expect non-Christian to have a less firm grasp on the larger context of the Bible.

How ironic? I would have said the complete opposite. I would have said that there is a few Christians who have a good grip on biblical understanding in this forum but they are an exception to the rule because most Christians on this forum don't seem to have a clue and that is why it is the non believers who are constantly winning debates in this forum, over what the bible says...

[Zzyzx]

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I don't think memorising and quoting certain scriptures is studying the bible and I don't think reading special feel good passages to strengthen ones faith is studying the scriptures either and that is how a lot of Christians use the bible.

Getting up every day and studying scripture, like I used to as a Christian, does nothing for understanding the bible if ones approach is as above and in my experience, that is how most Christians approach the bible.

I agree. The majority of Christians I encounter here and elsewhere (with an occasional notable exception) quote the "good parts", ignore the rest, and have little or no understanding that the Bible is simply a book compiled by churchmen to advance their opinions and conjectures. A bit of learning about its history and development / evolution might change perspectives.

I would have said that there is a few Christians who have a good grip on biblical understanding in this forum but they are an exception to the rule because most Christians on this forum don't seem to have a clue and that is why it is the non believers who are constantly winning debates in this forum, over what the bible says...

Non-Christians present much more powerful arguments in almost every thread I observe. Part of this may be attributed to Christian debaters lacking knowledge of their own literature and history (while assuming their own superiority in those respects).

More important, however, it seems as though they attempt to defend the weak side of debate – the side that cannot substantiate its claims and stories – with anything more than more unverified claims and stories, testimonials, opinions, conjectures, fanciful thinking, threats, promises (and when those fail, often a resort to personal attacks).

Many seem to be intent upon preaching rather than debating.

[Peds nurse]

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[Replying to post 1 by Peds nurse]

If Christians have greater ability to understand or "interpret" scripture WHY do they disagree with one another on nearly every aspect of the Bible? Why are there 40,000 different "superior" interpretations producing splinter groups / denominations?

I cannot speak for all 40,000 denominations, but I think that most of the more familiar denominations (Baptist, Pentecostal, Church of God, ect), are not because the word is misinterpreted, but that our focus on certain scriptures are more prominent. Some focus on service, some focus on strict Bible reading, some focus on adhering to moral dress codes, while others focus on evangelizing. Everybody does their part, for the complete body of Christ.

I have a fair command of the English language and ability to interpret what I read and do not hesitate to research many topics. When a Bible tale tells of the Earth being flooded "to the tops of mountains" I do not accept that as truthful and accurate. The first Christian that comes along may say that I am wrong because their superior powers granted by spirits or gods in return for fervent belief allows them to know that actually happened long ago.

The next Christian may agree that the Earth was not flooded (or flooded only "locally" which does not fit the Genesis tale) BUT the tale is "metaphorical" and that I just don't understand the hidden "message" that their superior powers allow them to correctly "interpret" for me.

Both base their claims of knowledge upon "proper" reading of scriptures and perhaps proclaim that I haven't studied scripture as much as they have (which is often questionable).

HOWEVER, I base my position on a decade of advanced study of Earth science and another decade teaching the subject at undergraduate and graduate level. Still Bible Believers often want to argue that their knowledge of Earth events is superior even though it is evident that their "study" of such things does not go beyond scripture (augmented perhaps by television shows and creationist websites and maybe a high school science class).

Many of the same people attempt to "interpret" (and "debunk") evolution without studying the subject. They also claim that dead bodies came back to life (once upon a time) in direct conflict with what is known by forensic biologists.

In other words, the Non-Believer is not qualified to "interpret scripture" but Believers are not only qualified to do that but also to "interpret" geology, biology and genetics.

Perhaps this is a lopsided view of one's capabilities and an over-estimation of powers granted by spirits and gods.

I speak solely for myself, and perhaps a few others. I don't ever think that a nonbeliever cannot interpret scripture. I do think there is a huge difference in interpreting and living it out. The more we live it out, the more insight we have into its meaning. This is like the example I gave. We can be a student, and learn all we need to know about a particular subject, but it is only when we apply its truth to our lives that the knowledge takes root.

As believers in Christ

[Peds nurse]

Hello people!!

I have talked with a couple of non believers who are somewhat disturbed when Christians claim to interpret or have more insight to scripture than they do. I am wondering why this is an issue? If we read multiple books on electric conductivity of the brain, and how various diseases interfere with that process, would we claim to know as much as a neurologist?

The logical 'lapse' I see there is comparing Christian believers' 'authority' to interpret scripture with a neurologists' 'authority' to interpret MRIs or findings of a neuro assessment.

The relationship of a Christian with their sacred scripture and a neurologist with his/her knowledge base is a different kind of relationship. The former is deeply dependent upon faith and subjective resonances, and the latter is dependent upon evidence-based theory and application.

Hamsaka, hope this finds you well! I have my dictionary loaded and ready to go (haha).

I understand evidence based medicine. This does not mean that there cannot be evidence based faith, which is equally similar. We read God's word and apply this word to our lives, which in turn increases our faith, and enhances our relationship with Him.

Which brings me 'round to the issue of "Christian authority", based upon faith and belief, as a less accurate measure of objective truth than an evidence-based approach. I'm not granting Christian faith any special permissions based on the faith-based claims used to support their faith-based claims , instead I'm putting Christian faith-based interpretation on par, no special permissions, with evidence-based interpretations (such as a neurologist would use for MRIs).

In general; faith-based claims fare poorly, in terms of truth-aptness, than evidence-based claims.

In both cases, there requires faith. We have faith that the MRI is read correctly. We have faith that the patient is compliant with medications on a particular study, we have faith that the drug companies are not altering data to enhance the benefits of their particular drug. Evidence in any form takes some sort of faith to believe it.

Scripture obviously takes faith, but when that faith is lived out, its evidence is apparent in our lives.

Now, people being offended that Christian's claim authority in scripture interpretation can be offended for many reasons, including it being human nature to get offended when someone else says they are better at something than you . That's silly, especially when they are. I've put more thought into it than taking it as a blow to my pride, of which I have rather the opposite when it comes to knowing scripture the way some o' these folks (theist and nontheist) around here do.

I don't think that Christians are claiming that nonbelievers are incompetent in any way, or that they lack the skills to interpret scripture, rather I believe it is because we as Christians, have God living in us (His Spirit), giving us discernment in how to apply and live out those scriptures in our life (New Testament).

That sounds completely reasonable, and only once in a while have I witnessed (IRL or otherwise) a Christian insisting nonbelievers are incompetent to interpret scripture. More often this sentiment is cloaked and then abandoned when the heat gets turned on beneath it, because it really is an ignorant and prideful thing to say out loud, and people know that and are ashamed to have their ignorance or pride displayed in all it's glory.

Pride goes before a fall!

Question for debate: Do you think it is reasonable to think that Christians have an advantage over nonbelievers in interpreting scripture? Why do some find this claim offensive?

HAPPY 4TH of JULY!!!

You too Guess what I'm doing? Working. Yes, that's right, nurses wouldn't know a holiday or a weekend if it slapped them upside the head (except that they mean 'premium pay'). My little guy is too medically fragile to attend a fireworks show so we're going to sit in the back yard and blow bubbles with his bubble machine which will probably entertain me at least as much as him.

I have such a heart for medically fragile kids! I have fostered several, and took care of kids in their home too (so parents can work). My little autistic, cerebral palsy kiddo, was totally oblivious to fireworks, which I find really odd since she can't handle the blender!