Interpreting the scripture

[Peds nurse]

Hello people!!

I have talked with a couple of non believers who are somewhat disturbed when Christians claim to interpret or have more insight to scripture than they do. I am wondering why this is an issue? If we read multiple books on electric conductivity of the brain, and how various diseases interfere with that process, would we claim to know as much as a neurologist?

I don't think that Christians are claiming that nonbelievers are incompetent in any way, or that they lack the skills to interpret scripture, rather I believe it is because we as Christians, have God living in us (His Spirit), giving us discernment in how to apply and live out those scriptures in our life (New Testament).

Question for debate: Do you think it is reasonable to think that Christians have an advantage over nonbelievers in interpreting scripture? Why do some find this claim offensive?

HAPPY 4TH of JULY!!!

[ttruscott]

From Post 37:

...
Jesus was gentle, except to the pharisees, who with their rigid laws, made it impossible for people to know God.
...

I propose the greatest impediment to folks knowin' God, is him not being there for 'em to do it.

...

I must reject this proposal in favour of the scripture that says we ALL have indeed seen HIS power and glory but because we loved our sin more than the truth, we have repressed these memories and so have blinded ourselves to the truth.

This is the greatest impediment to our knowing the truth, imCo,

Peace, Ted

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 38 by JoeyKnothead]
Lest any prig or over-sensitive Christian be inclined to file a report about the final word used in the previous post, I advise that person first look up that word in the dictionary, EXACTLY as spelled here.

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[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 41:

I propose the greatest impediment to folks knowin' God, is him not being there for 'em to do it.

I must reject this proposal in favour of the scripture that says we ALL have indeed seen HIS power and glory but because we loved our sin more than the truth, we have repressed these memories and so have blinded ourselves to the truth.

And I reject your proposal for it being all blankety libely.

You do nothing but libel good folks of conscience who reject what can't be shown to be truth, much less "repressed".

You do nothing but libel good folks of conscience when you accuse 'em of having "blinded" themselves to a "truth" you can't show is there to be blinded from.

This is the greatest impediment to our knowing the truth, imCo,

I reckon I must amend my comments to "Maybe it is, an even greater impediment to knowing the truth is to libel folks."

If all you can do is serve up a mess o' hominy, ya might do well to put a little butter on it first.


But thanks for one more example of how some theists'd just as soon cuss ya, as to save ya.

[arian]

From Post 35:

The more we know God, the more freely His Spirit works in us, or we allow it to.
...
Christians are not perfect (surprise...lol). We deviate from God's word, His Spirit, and even from the church at times.
...
We are not perfect, but the good news is, that we don't have to be, because we serve a perfect God.
...

So we're being asked to accept this Christian God's
'perfect' based on the testimony of imperfect Christians?

Good point Joey, that would be like me (aircraft machining inspector) asking a carpenter to cut me a block of steel within a +-0.0001 (tenths of a thousandths of an inch) tolerance when I know what he uses is a tape measure. And then accepting the carpenters answer: "Well I'm not perfect, but my brother Jesus the machinist is! He can hold even 0.0000001 inch tolerance!"
So how does this work? Should I accept a piece of steel cut measured out with a tape measure, or do I wait for Jesus to come and cut me a piece within my asked tolerance range? But I'm not God, for God requires perfection!

Matthew 5:48
Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.�

James 1:4
But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

This in no way to challenge my sister debater Ped nurse, but I want to make it obvious that if God truly is in us (Christ-like, or Christians) then there should be no question unanswered. We are to be the light of the world, a city on a, .. oh well, everyone knows those Biblical comments already.

So how does this work? I really want to know from the Christian Religious perspective?

This is why I love this forum, it challenges what I believe and why I believe it, while Religion simply accepts doctrinal teachings; "this is what it is, accept it!" This goes for all the Sci-fi religions also.

I propose that if this god were so perfect, he'd be able to get his message to folks without relying on such an imperfect means to do it.

Unless we are deluded by religions (Satan's trick to disappoint/deceive) as to the true meaning of 'perfection'? Sin, even if it's the smallest deviation from Gods will (law) is a sin, and we all have sinned:

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned -

.. so what is perfection? Thanks be to God for sending us His Son Word, achieving perfection once again is not as hard as one thinks, especially not like many of the denominations would like people to believe.

Before the Son of God came, people, that is 'good people' which would include a lot of atheists today, and exclude a lot of Christians, remained ignorant of the true meaning of perfection. They kept the law best as they could and were satisfied. (there was nothing perfect to compare themselves to)
When Jesus started His ministry, He showed the Jews that no matter how much (or many) of the many, many laws they kept, they would fall short. Paul reminds us not to fall back to that again;

Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

God overlooked most of those weaknesses/laws, or 'smaller sins' of the OT:

Acts 17:30
Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

Repent is the key here to perfection:

Matthew 5:48
Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Until John pointing to Jesus, and then Jesus himself revealed the way to perfection:

Matthew 3:1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!� 3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying:
“The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make His paths straight.’�

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.�

Further evidence of this religion being a human construct. Where one can't be perfect (however defined), they find 'em a 'perfect' thing to look up to.

Yes I agree that the religious part that one cannot be perfect is a human construct, NOT what Jesus was teaching us, like Mathew 5:38 and many other places. He would never request from us something we could never achieve. Repentance leads to perfection.

Christ Fulfills the Law

Mathew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Christ not only kept the law, but kept it by the law of the Spirit: Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and with self control.

.. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;

Are we going to break one of these least of these commandments? Absolutely!

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

So how does Mathew 5:19 fit in since we cannot stop sinning or breaking the commandments?

Mathew 5:19 .. but whoever does and teaches them (all the commandments), he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

So if I'm like the Pharisees and the scribes who knew the law and taught even beyond the law (make them tithe even the seasonings in their kitchen) but were corrupt, heartless, cruel, .. another words 'unrighteous', there is no way I will see the kingdom of Heaven.

1 John 1:5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

So perfection is not being a hypocrite for one (teach one thing and I do something opposite), it is also not being perfect (if you can be, great, but then you don't need Jesus Christ) but instead we aught to be like David was, even though he sinned (boy did he ever) committed some grave sins, but once the Prophet revealed his sin to him, he was devastated, and his repentance as we know is exemplary, .. not like Saul who constantly made excuses for his disobedience to God.

So being perfect is not out of our reach, it is a repentant heart. The sins we repented of, Jesus covers. See, not hard at all.

But those who join secret organizations and plan evil day and night, .. or those who knowingly and intentionally cover for evil like some here on the Forum, (and their intent is far more revealing then they would like to admit), who make the followers and teachers of Gods Word out to be evil, yet their obvious evil teachings out to be good and lawful, these shall have a place with Satan and his angels.
Also those that claim in the name of Christ to justify wars, by which they help the rich rob from the poor and weak nations, enslaving men to work for them for free (WWII - today), and use them for experiments like rats, .. or those who take over our education system and program our children to accept that they are animals in the image of apes, .. and change laws to allow sin to be legal, .. or those that take over our justice system and hide evidence for 30 - 50 - 70 years like the real reasons behind WWII, the Holocaust, Kennedy assassinations, 9-11, Agenda 21 and on and on, .. these work day and night covering up conspiracies which in turn openly condones wickedness.

But they too are called to repent, so they too could be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect.

I'm not preaching, but properly interpreting Scripture.

[arian]

I am wondering if it isn't because we understand differently, but our focus is different? Here me out for a minute...

According to the Bible, God made each of us, and all of us are uniquely different. We all have different gifts and talents. If my gift is evangelizing, then my focus on scripture will come from that angle. If my gift is service, then my focus will come from that perspective.

Would you not agree that personalities, experiences, and our gifts, affect our ability to interpret various data? Why do we go to a movie and some like it, some don't, some remembered certain scenes, while others remembered something completely different?

Then the holy spirit is worthless.

If the holy spirit is there, then it should be guiding you to the correct interpretation and preventing you from allowing other influences to taint what you are reading. If every true Christian has this spirit, this super power, then there should be unity. But even within denominations, even among people with the same focus, the unity is not there. Thus the need for bible discussion groups and meetings where you can discuss exactly what the bible means. (and even then you don't normally end up in agreement).

Any claims of holy spirit discernment become nothing more than a fantasy because of this lack of unity.

If the holy spirit is not able to bring unity when it comes to understanding the bible, then it's either very weak and pathetic or its non existent. What we really have is just believers all with differing opinions and perspectives, all tainted by their own preconceived ideas and experiences. Understanding that is clearly no more superior to that of non-Christians.

It is true that our own agenda's do get in the way of our understanding, but that does not mean that God isn't creating unity.

I have to agree with OnceConvinced here, he hit the nail right on the head: "Then the holy spirit is worthless.

If the holy spirit is there, then it should be guiding you to the correct interpretation and preventing you from allowing other influences to taint what you are reading. If every true Christian has this spirit, this super power, then there should be unity."

I don't think it is as simple as that Arian. Remember in the New Testament where Paul was talking about some people thinking it is okay to eat some food, while others found it to not honor God? Does it mean that the Spirit isn't working in either case? No, it means that through the Spirit and our interpretations we might deviate some on things that are not an eternal matter. Where the Spirit comes into play, is when we can put on love, and in our disagreements or preferences, not disrespect or cause someone to sin.

Thanks again Peds nurse. Yes, this was one of the misinterpreted leniencies I debated with quite a few Denominations, especially Baptist. Leniencies to weakness leads to sin. Lets look at this again sis, and so you know, I have all the respect for you, so please overlook the boldness in what I say here, it is because I find it extremely important, even eternal.

Romans 14:1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

Lets see how he words this: "Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things."

Ok, just how far do we ignore someone's weakness in the faith? And if we do ignore it, what other weakness will we allow?

Here is what I mean; as I was debating this subject with one of the Ministers of a pretty big sized Baptist church (into the thousands), he began to see my point, and started to agree with me. He then added that he even knows a wonderful couple who have been in the process of divorce for a while. Both the man/husband and the woman/wife attended the church, only the husband was attending church with this other woman, who also a member of the church, and they would sit together, while his wife sat somewhere else, sometimes close, and sometimes farther. There were no disagreements between the man and wife, they both agreed that the divorce was the best thing for both of them (how much of that is true, I don't know, and the Pastor didn't say)
So tell me, how long do we wait to mention something to the husband and his new girlfriend? We don't know if they are sleeping together or not? I mean divorce is lawful, and coming to church and sitting with another woman is lawful, should we ask? Should we take a chance of upsetting them and make them leave the church? Remember they are weak.

Now eating only vegetables is not a sin, I would not argue over that with anyone. BUT, if this new brother/sister believed that eating meat was a sin, we have a big problem. Now if I know this person just left the 7th Day Adventists to come to us, I would wait, and then slowly, after a few weeks, maybe even a few months ask a few questions as to why he refuses to eat meat? I would not leave it at that, because like I said, if he continues to believe that us meat-eaters are sinning, there is no unity there.

But, .. if he says: "Hey, I got used to not eating meat, so ya'll just go on eating that hamburger and stake, I'll stick with my vegetables, I would lovingly accept him as a dear Brother till the Day of our Lord. Does that make sense?

But what we have now is that (as this Pastor admitted) that they don't even ask, that they feel they don't have the right to pry into someone's personal business. This is NOT what Paul was saying: "Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things."

Receive one who is still weak in faith, not put him on the spot before we even know his reasons not eating meat? And once we do know that he used to be a 7th Day Adventist, of course we are to wait patiently, strengthening him, making him understand that it's not a sin to eat meat. It will take a while, so patience is important, right?

But like I said, if after a long time he still continues to see eating meat as a sin, it is time to get a little more serious, we cannot allow a little leaven to leaven up the whole church.

The only unity that I have seen between all the denominations I attended (JW's, 7th-Day Adv. Catholic, different Baptists, Presbyterian, Church of Christ, Apostolic Nazarene the Old country, US Nazarene, The Two by Twos (German), Calvary Chapel (Chuck Smith and Chuck Missler Ca.) also some Calvary Chapel here in AZ, conversations with Westboro Baptist Church leaders, and many other non-Denominational churches is that they all believe in a Triune-plural-god, another words a plural-god who is one - but many, at least three, which according to the Bible is the demon Legion.

You are calling the Trinity a demon Legion? As far as I know that was the scenario with the pigs...

The Trinity Doctrine sees God as "three gods in one", three separate beings, independent in thought but who agree with one another as in One Mind, is this correct? They also interpret Genesis "Let us make man in our own image" as if God is a plural being. They never say how plural, this could be 2,000 plural like the one demon Legion who was 2,000 plural.

If Jesus is God, as in ONE GOD, then please explain:

Matthew 26:39
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Matthew 26:42
He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
.. and dozens more clear indication of the Sons individuality, and his claim that He was not God, but the Son of God.

The Holy Spirit would never request from God something like Jesus did of His Father in the Garden, for the Holy Spirit is God/Spirit who cannot be seen, and He is Holy, as in Holy Spirit. It is who He is.

And the Son is exactly what He claimed to be, "The Son of God", and never God.

The Trinity Catholic God is also exactly as this new Jesuit Pope announced, Lucifer, and Lucifer's son Jesus would be what? Exactly, .. the anti-Christ who is about to be revealed, the sun-god. Look at the Vatican symbolism, it should be obvious to anyone and everyone.
The Jesuits are looking and observing the sun with their 'LUCIFER' telescope here in Arizona for what? They say for something wonderful coming out of the sun, like a space ship or something, .. lol yeah, a space ship.

Also that to get to be a high paying Christian Minister one has to go to a school of Divinity, or a Trinity College to get a degree in 'Divination'.
They all agree (except for the JW's) that we must obey our Leaders because God appointed them, no matter what religion he/she/it may be, what multi gender or whatever his/her/its purpose in attacking another country is, even if it too is a Christian Country, they are to 'OBEY'.
But hey, .. "What would Jesus do?" right?

I am unsure of the high paying Minister's who attend Seminary. Mega Churches may get paid big bucks...but that is all I am aware of.

I said: "to get to be a high paying Christian Minister". We know most college students are poor, broke.

So yes, they (all the Christian Religious Denominations) are very united on that, so how can Gods Holy Spirit, another words, 'God' be keeping unity? That is NOT the Holy Spirit that's keeping unity on the above mentioned doctrines, but Lucifer and the anti-Christ.

It is a sin to protect our country? Did not God go to war to protect His people? Is this not the same God?

Our God is a God of war, yes He will fight, but NOT for this country, but for justice, to punish the wicked who run this country like our homosexual president for one, unless he repents.

As for this country, it already has a goddess protecting it - Ishtar:

Google - Laboulaye and his fellow Freemason, sculptor Bartholdi referred to her as “Libertas� but she was also an early adoption by Romans of the Babylonian goddess Ishtar. We'll need to follow the research on the goddess connections to fully understand this statue's meaning:

The Babylonian Ishtar, Imperial Rome’s goddess Libertas was Papal Rome’s “MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH� and the template for America’s Statue of Liberty.

One of the many proofs of Freemasonry’s cult of liberty, and furthermore of its deep influence upon our culture and mentality, is the Statue of Liberty. This colossus in New York’s harbor was conceived by Freemasons, financed by Freemasons, built by Freemasons, and installed by Freemasons in a Freemasonic ceremony. The poem about “the huddled masses� inscribed on its base was written by American Jewess, Emma Lazarus.

The maker of the statue was Freemason Frederic-Auguste Bartholdi. He had already made a statue of the Freemason Marquis de Lafayette for the city of New York, for the occasion of the centenary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence.

So I doubt very much God our Creator would ask His Sons Disciples to kill and die for Ishtar, Papal Rome’s “MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH�, do you?

Talking and meeting for Bible Study is good because it draws us nearer to not only God, but each other.

So does a big pot-luck without even a mention of God. I have been to so many different denominational Bible studies that I lost count many years ago, and I testify before you all here, .. my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, before all the Holy Angels, all in the presence of our One, the only One Possible the Infinite and Eternal Creative Mind/Spirit "I Am Who I Am" God that the God that the Christian Religions worship is NOT our God of the Bible, but the very opposite. It is the god of this world Lucifer, the Devil that they bow in servitude and worship!

I don't swear on anything, but I assure you that our church does not worship the Devil. The Devil is evil, and there is no good in him, so how can good things come from the church? A house divided will not stand.

And it won't stand, it will not last and as a Bible reader and a Christian, you should know that. Did Egypt stand, .. did Rome stand? How many other pagan god worshiping empires stood for a long time (from our flailing dying bodies perspective, for we are like a mist, here today and gone tomorrow, right?) but what Jesus was referring to is that eternal Stand, what will last forever, our Eternal Kingdom which is NOT of this earth.

Do you know what the Jesuits are known for? Look it up, and tell me if your church comes even close to having done so much 'good', for so many years as they? But I tell you from just the wickedness that I have witnessed with my own eyes, heard with my own ears, and read from historical documents, they will never enter into that Kingdom of God. I mean just look at the One (World) dollar bill, in what "God We Trust" do you suppose they trust in?

Don't think even for a minute that I don't know how you feel, or how I feel about all those seemingly good people, my own big family, so content in their delusions, they mock me even though they admit that everything I shown them from the Bible and the world around us is true. At times it literally tears me up.

But time has been wasted, and if you see what I see, there is no time, not one minute left to be wasted. It is like the story of the Ten Virgins, so in Christ love, with all my heart I ask you and everyone here (if you haven't woken up already), .. better trim your lamps to see if you have enough oil left, because the midnight is HERE, and I hear the cry: "Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!"

Ask yourself Christian; will your children be the ones pulling the lever on those guillotines for their "god and country" (remember the dollar bill; "In God We Trust", which is "In THIS God We Trust", for the money is the real reason they send the children to war, everyone know that by now, everyone who can search and read the internet) OR will they be the ones who will be under those guillotines being beheaded for the sake of Christ and His Eternal Kingdom?

Sadly from what I have observed from all the Christian Churches, .. I'm sure you know my answer!

Luke 13:23 And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.

All the denominations already made a pact with the Jesuit (who were always Luciferian) Pope to be One, since for the past 1,700 years they all worshipped the same Deity, a created fallen Angel, who man has chosen as their god of this world; Lucifer/Satan/that serpent the Devil.

That is a pretty bold statement, since the only one who actually knows the hearts of men, is God. You are sure that you have the authority to judge who worships whom?

I go by facts, and if a church worships the Catholic/Jesuit Trinity, they are worshiping Satan/Lucifer/demons. I don't know any other plural god, except the one mentioned in the Bible, a plural demon worshipped as God who called himself Legion. So you tell me, am I to tell people not to worship the wrong god/gods?
The Catholic Religion was created around 300AD, in which they made the Trinity as their God, and took Constantine's sword as their cross. That's 1,700 years ago, so any 'Christian religion that fits this criteria, (worship triune gods, or a plural demon Legion, bears the sword as their cross) fits in with what I said. This is not judging people, it is judging what is evil and what is truth. All followers of Christ are commanded and taught to do that.

Have you taught your children about Heaven and hell? If they ask: "Who is going to hell mom?" what would you tell them? Would you respond like Billy Graham and say: "I'm not the one to judge. God loves everyone, and even atheists and devil worshipers pray to god some just don't know it, so we are all going to Heaven. Who am I to judge?"

I sure hope you made it more clearer to them then Mr. Graham as to who is going to hell and who is not!?

God doesn't have some program that punches out Christians to be all the same. We are different, and we have different thoughts, but that does not mean the Spirit isn't working.

I doubt that is the 'difference' that OnceConvinced was pointing out!? Yes we are all different, but supposed to be of the same mind, which is of Christ. So either we "turn the other cheek" or blow our enemies unarmed old men, women and children to kingdom-come, bypassing all rules of war, going as low as any human can go to kill entire cities of innocent unarmed civilians (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) in the name of 'Christ'! I mean right there should tell any so called Christian that read the New Testament just ONCE that that is NOT what Jesus would do.

No, but I do wonder what Jesus would tell you. Would He tell you to judge the eternity of the churches? Jesus came to this world so that we might be saved through His blood, and all who believe will be saved. It isn't up to us to judge who is being sincere and who is not, because we cannot know the hearts (intent) of man.

I wasn't talking about those men whose hearts I do not know. I was talking about sins listed in the Bible, and what Jesus taught, and men who do those sins.

Tell me, if you seen a man kill someone, or rob someone, or rape someone, wouldn't you warn him that if he doesn't repent he will go to hell for that? If he tells you "You have no idea why I did those things, so don't judge me!" .. would you just say: "Oh, OK, I see, you're right, I shouldn't judge anyone." ??

I know what Jesus tells me, it's right there in the Bible. So if I point that out, I am not the one judging, the only Righteous judge is doing that by Gods Word.

If a church worships Lucifer, unless they stop and turn to worship the One True God as he is described in the Bible, where do you think that church will go?

I am NOT talking about the many who out of ignorance sit there, God will judge them, I don't know how much they've done to seek the truth? But I do know this, that if anyone seeks the truth, even ONE in a billion, God will provide for them a preacher, or a teacher or a Disciple of Christ to reveal the truth to him. Jesus promised that He will never leave us or forsake us. So there should be no human in the wrong church, they all have had to deny the truth one way or another, or they could claim on That Day that Jesus abandoned them. Even if that person is in the Muslim religion in a Muslim country, .. God will provide an escape.
No one will have an excuse on that Last Day, not one.

Wake up people, because God has provided just about everything for us to study His Word. There is no longer any excuse. I, an unschooled idiot has every Bible (minus the satanic ones) and commentary, Bible dictionary available, and now it's on line, so anyone can look up Scripture, any word or phrase in seconds. Is your vision poor? Just turn on the audio Bible and choose who you want to read for you, .. dramatized or not!

We can look up things Arian, but not everything is truth. I am telling you without love, everything we consider worthy and meaningful, is actually meaningless. A resounding gong.....

If you truly, with all your heart and soul seek the truth, I promise you that you will find the truth, for God will guide you to it. He guided me, and I was a real dummy, I kid you not.

If you think I'm saying these things out of hate, you are wrong. I love everyone here, even though some of the things they say truly offends me, and I know it offends our Creator God, so I may sound stern against clear evil, that has nothing to do with them personally, because I know in my heart that should they turn to the truth, I would run to hug them.

The Bible is clear on those who chose to rebel to the end, and it is not hate to point that out to them. Matter of fact it is our Christian duty to do so.

So as OnceConvinced said, I also agree that we Christians should not be so different as we are today!? And so confused on who our Creator God is to bow down to idols, or give ear to divining spirits! And what's even worse, is that Christians go to school to get a degree in Divination to become 'diviners' to these demonic spirits!

So who is a Christian? Is it someone who got baptized (infant or not) in the Christian Religion in the name of some triune gods, .. or the one who was baptized by Gods Holy Spirit in the "Newness of their Minds"?

There is truth my sweet friend, and His truth will set us free, but once again, without His love....it is pointless...

Amen, .. love conquers all, .. except an unrepeated sinner who choses to remain in sin, right? Maybe Billy Graham can forgive and allow devil worshipers into heaven, but I doubt he'll be allowed near the gate, not alone say who goes in or who don't. The Judge will do that.

And I can tell you this, that no certified "Minister-Diviner" who worships a sun-god amongst the three gods will be able to give you the 'Holy Spirit' by the laying on of his hand. Oh you will receive a spirit alright, the spirit of confusion, which will instruct you to go against Jesus own teachings. Against God Himself! So please, people, take another good look at the scripture and see what it really says without the religious blinders on! Your eternal life is riding on this, and most likely your loved ones too!?

I see your passion Arian, for people to see the truth, but I am afraid that you are going about it all wrong. Jesus was gentle, except to the pharisees, who with their rigid laws, made it impossible for people to know God. It isn't about the behavior...it has always been about His love...that is in the scriptures.[/quote]

I know what you mean my dear friend, and I can see how I may sound to you or other Christians. But what am I saying here, that Christians who worship the gods of the Trinity Doctrine will in no way be able to get into Heaven. This is what the Bible teaches, that no worshipers of gods will be allowed in!

So why is this any different than what Jesus and the Apostles said? This is about false god worship, and if you listened to what the Pope is saying, openly admitting that their God is Lucifer, and I have shown that the Trinity is a plural demon, so we're not talking about minor disputes as to who eats vegetables and who don't, this is as serious as Jesus telling the Pharisees that their father is the devil. It is actually the same, exactly the same.

Did Jesus tell the Pharisees that their father was the devil, and that they never really knew God, for if they did, they would have known Jesus also, out of hate?
No, .. it was out of love, to wake them up. But because they truly were worshiping their father Satan, they did what the devil wanted, which was to kill Jesus.

John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

It doesn't sound too loving especially to the high Priests, the Pharisees, the teachers of the law who were practically worshipped by the people, right?

But you're right Ped nurse, maybe I am just wasting my time here, that's why I finally stopped going to churches, seeking out some Bible based church as they claim to be, yet they didn't want to hear any more, they were content with the number in church which they attributed to their sermons and their one true god Trinity, the one plural god who is many. It was either that, or the Sabbath god, or the Jehovah Witness god with his Cherubim angel-son, .. oh so many gods, anything and anyone but "I Am Who I Am".

God bless you my friend.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 1 by Peds nurse]

Peds if you believe you have "the" GOD living inside you........Why would you need to study anything???

The more we know God, the more freely His Spirit works in us, or we allow it to. We are still human, we can resist God, and ignore His Spirit all together!

Please demonstrate this to be true with some EVIDENCE.

Peds if indeed "the" GOD........has in fact lived inside christians and "guided" them.......shouldn't after 1500 plus years it all be settled by now instead of more and more fracturing of christianity

I am not sure what you are referring to, as being "settled." Christians are not perfect (surprise...lol). We deviate from God's word, His Spirit, and even from the church at times.

How do you know what "God's word" is so perfectly that you can spot deviations.Please demonstrate that you KNOW better what "God's word " is as compared to anyone else.

It may NOT be possible for you to be perfect, and PERHAPS some other Christian understanding of what "God's word" actually IS better than yours.

All IMPERFECT PEOPLE MIGHT BE WRONG ABOUT GOD'S WORD.

NOT everybody can be RIGHT about what "God's word" is supposed to be.
BUT everybody CAN be wrong about it.

That's just how logic works.

Peds...since "the" GOD lives inside you I would assume YOU absolutely know what a "true christian" is......can you provide us...... the unwashed nonbelieving simpletons with some sort of mechanism of how to discern the "real christians" from the others.

I am so SINCERELY sorry if I have given you or anyone the impression that I hold the corner market on being a proper Christian.

Thank you for this admission.

In my most humble opinion, I don't even think that exists!

Why then, would we EVER take your word for it, if you don't corner the market on what it means to be a Christian? You might be WRONG about your opinions about God, what it means to be a Christian, and so on.

Everybody and his GOAT has opinions.
Why should anyone listen to YOURS as authoritative in any way?

We are not perfect, but the good news is, that we don't have to be, because we serve a perfect God. In the Bible, it does say that we will be known by our fruits!

.....Bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God...Colossians 1:10.

Other Christians bear fruit. Other Christians say they are growing in the knowledge of God but don't agree with you.

What's so special about your kind of understanding vs. any OTHER kind of understanding?

I UNDERSTAND the Bible in my own way.. what's so BAD about MY kind of understanding.

Or as it says.. KNOWLEDGE... DO you have any knowledge about your god OR is everything you say about your god beliefs are MERE OPINION, like every OTHER Christian who claims having knowledge about the god?

I can claim to have "knowledge" about the god...

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 44:

...
Sin, even if it's the smallest deviation from Gods will (law) is a sin, and we all have sinned
...

Until you can show this God gives him the first tinker's dang about the doings of humans, this is but one more libel from theists.



I reject the libelous slanderer who accuses me of being a "sinner", when their accusations are as empty as their claim to know the mind of a god they can't even show exists.



Your and ttruscott's posts should be added to that religious harm thread - where we see that even after the passage of some two thousand years, some thiests still can't tell their insults from Shinola.

[tam]

In response to the OP:

Do you think it is reasonable to think that Christians have an advantage over nonbelievers in interpreting scripture? Why do some find this claim offensive?

Technically, no... because interpretation does not belong to men, so it should not BE a Christian interpreting scripture.

A Christian should have an advantage over a non-believer in understanding scripture IF that Christian has had that scripture opened to them by the Spirit (Christ)... therefore IF that Christian is listening to the Spirit, and IF the Christian knows Christ. (Well, a Christian knows Christ - they are anointed with holy spirit that Christ has given them - but not all who call themselves Christians truly are Christians)


All that being said, a person could study the scriptures their entire life, every day devoted to them, and still not have an accurate (truthful) understanding of them. ("You diligently search the scriptures because you think that by them you will have eternal life, but you refuse to come to me for life") Nor do you need to turn to scripture to see this - for there are a great many conflicting 'interpretations' of scripture out there. But there is only One Christ, One God, One Truth. (someone other than a Christian might not accept that, but for a Christian, I do not know how one could reject that)



Someone can also spend much time studying that book, and miss certain scriptures - they never saw them. Their eyes, when reading, just skipped right over them, perhaps because what that verse says is not in line with what they believe is true.




Different people get annoyed over the claim that Christians have an advantage over interpreting scripture for all sorts of reasons, I imagine. Jealousy would be one (at least if the claim of knowing something more than someone else is true).


But sometimes a claim like that might be made by a believer in order to dismiss sound questions and/or arguments from a non-believer against that believer's particular interpretation. In which case, it can be annoying and offensive to be dismissed like that.


And what difference does a claim make if one cannot back up that claim? If you have a true understanding or interpretation of something that is written - from the Spirit - then show it by explaining what it is you understand from scripture and why. Or if you believe you have an accurate understanding based on your own reasoning, then again, explain how it is true. Then, if a non-believer (or another believer) cannot dispute what you have cited, then perhaps they should concede that they were mistaken. On the other hand, if your interpretation is challenged and shown to be false, then perhaps you should concede that you were mistaken.




Peace to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 48:

A Christian should have an advantage over a non-believer in understanding scripture IF that Christian has had that scripture opened to them by the Spirit (Christ)... therefore IF that Christian is listening to the Spirit, and IF the Christian knows Christ. (Well, a Christian knows Christ - they are anointed with holy spirit that Christ has given them - but not all who call themselves Christians truly are Christians)

"A Christian ain't a Christian, unless it is, he's my kinda Christian, otherwise, he's just a Scotsman."

[Danmark]

In response to the OP:

Do you think it is reasonable to think that Christians have an advantage over nonbelievers in interpreting scripture? Why do some find this claim offensive?

Technically, no... because interpretation does not belong to men, so it should not BE a Christian interpreting scripture.

A Christian should have an advantage over a non-believer in understanding scripture IF that Christian has had that scripture opened to them by the Spirit (Christ)... therefore IF that Christian is listening to the Spirit, and IF the Christian knows Christ. (Well, a Christian knows Christ - they are anointed with holy spirit that Christ has given them - but not all who call themselves Christians truly are Christians)

Several problems with this.
One is that many non Christians are former Christians, who diligently studied the Bible and even went to Seminary or were practicing ministers who had been 'born again' and 'filled with the spirit.'

The frequent and I believe grossly unfair response is "Well! Then you never were a 'true' Christian." If find that offensive and perhaps even a rule violation.

Next, I think we've all met people who were faithful Christians who really did not know their Bibles very well or who have come up with very odd ideas, then claim the spirit had showed them the way.

We also have actually put this to the test. No one here has shown they can interpret and understand scripture better than anyone else based on their statement of faith.

Essentially there is a fallacy going on here. I'll give an example:

"You can't possibly know as much about Ireland because you were not born there."

"I've actually been to Japan so I know . . . . better than you do."

I met a lady last night. She came from Ireland, she said. She used "Gobsmacked." I said that's a great British word. "No," she corrected. "It's Irish." [she's wrong. look it up] Then I asked her what County in Ireland she was from. She said she was from Dublin, but they only call it a city, not a county. [wrong again]

The reason non believers are offended by this baloney about only Christians can say what the Bible means is because, A, it's not true,
and
B, it's an illogical way to claim some kind of undeserved special status as an "authority." "I'm right because I'm an authority" is a basic fallacy of logic.