Interpreting the scripture

[Peds nurse]

Hello people!!

I have talked with a couple of non believers who are somewhat disturbed when Christians claim to interpret or have more insight to scripture than they do. I am wondering why this is an issue? If we read multiple books on electric conductivity of the brain, and how various diseases interfere with that process, would we claim to know as much as a neurologist?

I don't think that Christians are claiming that nonbelievers are incompetent in any way, or that they lack the skills to interpret scripture, rather I believe it is because we as Christians, have God living in us (His Spirit), giving us discernment in how to apply and live out those scriptures in our life (New Testament).

Question for debate: Do you think it is reasonable to think that Christians have an advantage over nonbelievers in interpreting scripture? Why do some find this claim offensive?

HAPPY 4TH of JULY!!!

[Blastcat]

Hello people!!


I believe it is because we as Christians, have God living in us (His Spirit), giving us discernment in how to apply and live out those scriptures in our life (New Testament).

Please give evidence that you have God living within you.

[arian]

It is true that our own agenda's do get in the way of our understanding,

That then means that our minds are stronger than the power of the holy spirit.

First you have to accept, or allow the Holy Spirit into you, into your heart, into your mind and let Him guide you. As far as you go, you admit evolution is the best explanation for the existence of biological life here on earth, so according to evolution you don't have an individual mind separate from your brain. God will not come into you and control your brain, He is there to 'guide' your mind, to make the right decisions. You are still in the evolution stage, no individual mind yet.

Hopefully the Blue-brain people will create one for you, which you can take home on disk. Actually your loved ones will be able to take it home cause it will cost you your life in exchange for the disk.

And if our own agenda or mind trumps the holy spirit, what advantage is the holy spirit? Exactly how is it bringing you the correct understanding of scripture if your own agenda usurps it?

Our minds can get preoccupied with the things of this world, the physical things, so all we have to do is allow Gods Holy Spirit to guide us. But first we have to discern which 'spirit' we allow to guide us, and if we worship Deities (demonic spirits) who come to us through false teachers, diviners/mediums, they would never allow Gods Holy Spirit in to guide us. I thought you were a Christian, these are all basic teachings!?!?

Now if we 'believe' we are animals, or just a product of some purposeless chaotic evolutionary accident through mutation, none of this even matters. Even Satan wouldn't waste his time with that person since animals, human animals or not, will follow Lucifer by instinct, like he knows that if he flashes money, or fame or offers a lawless lifestyle (do as thou wilt) the goats are sure to follow.
Lucifer only concerns himself with those sheep of Christ who actively oppose him and his lies, not the goats that already follow him.

So really you have no advantage over the non-believer as your agenda makes mincemeat of the holy spirit every time.

LOL, .. mincemeat, how funny. But you have that backwards, it is Satan's demonic evil spirit that makes mincemeat of peoples brain, so we must pray non-ceasing, another words always mindful of God as we go about our daily business, or our agendas will become the main focus of our life.

but that does not mean that God isn't creating unity.

Well let's see that unity then. Let's see it simply with the Christian members of this here website.

Yes, and as I pointed out in my previous post, we must choose which spirit it is we allow to guide us? Is it the spirit of demons, deities who reside in the supernatural realm divining to willing mediums, .. or are we calling upon Gods Holy Spirit who reveals His message to us through many different ways, including science which is as we observe the world around us.
Not like Allen G. White, or Joseph Smith, or the Quakers who called upon Deities like Legion, Gorgo or Mormo and listened to their divinations!

Talking and meeting for Bible Study is good because it draws us nearer to not only God, but each other. God doesn't have some program that punches out Christians to be all the same. We are different, and we have different thoughts, but that does not mean the Spirit isn't working.

But yet our agenda trumps the holy spirit every time. So anyone claiming to have the holy spirit guiding them and giving them correct understanding is kidding themselves.

Yes, they could very well be kidding themselves if they think a triune plural god of the Trinity Doctrine will help them overcome their agendas. He will actually create more agendas, more problems in our lives rather than help us overcome them. You see Satan can come to people as an angel of light, mimicking almost, .. or half-truths, which we can see in todays Christian Religions, all of them, every Christian Religious denomination of them.

We must choose whom we shall serve? Either Deities who reside and divine to Christian-mediums from the supernatural realm, or our Creator God, the Infinite and Eternal Creative Mind/Spirit "I Am Who I Am" who is revealed in us who were created in His image, and who speaks to us through His Prophets and His Son Word which is recorded in the Bible!?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 1 by Peds nurse]

I have noticed this as well, and it has often confused me. Even if we take an entirely atheistic standpoint and say nothing about the Spirit of God, shouldn’t a reasonable atheist realize that someone who currently spends time studying the scriptures is likely to have a better understanding of the scriptures than someone who doesn’t?

Well, it depends what you mean by "better understanding".

I would concede that someone STUDYING the Bible probably knows more Bible verses by heart, and how it could be interpreted.

But that's the problem. The particular INTERPRETATION isn't necessarily a "better" understanding. I usually conclude that a particular interpretation is a DIFFERENT kind of understanding. It has to be proven to be "better" THAN any other interpretation.

Interpretation isn't understanding.
Understanding isn't having an opinion.

I have read the Communist Manifesto, but I am not a Marxist. If a Marxist says, “This is the larger context of what Carl Marx was saying in this passage,� then I am likely to believe the Marxist unless I have strong reason not to.

That would be a mistake.

Everyone and his pet goat has opinions. Your Marxist here might have a more EDUCATED opinion, but it's still, only an opinion. Take that with a HUGE grain of salt. Unless, of course ALL Marxists agree.

And even THEN... that would only mean that they all agree on the OPINION.

Opinions aren't facts.

Now, of course, if the Marxist can demonstrate that his opinion MATCHES pretty much exactly what Marx MEANT.. by say, giving a quote like... "and in the above paragraph I meant X...", and X matches the opinion given .. ok.

OF course, Marx is INCREDIBLY LESS contradictory and incoherent than the Bible, and so it would be WAY INCREDIBLY easier to reach a consensus over what Marx means... Being a philosopher and that clarity was one of Marx's GOALS... Jesus... no.

Jesus loved to be AS VAGUE as possible, for whatever reason, making INTERPRETATIONS necessary, and, unfortunately, difficult to agree on.

Hence, 30 thousand or more denominations disagreeing on interpretations.

Again, interpretations are not FACTS.

That Marxist spends his time studying the material and most likely has a better grasp on the material than I do. This doesn’t mean I don’t think for myself; it does mean that I recognize when someone would reasonably have more knowledge of a topic than I do.

Fair. When someone quotes me the Bible... I don't go check to see if he got it wrong. But I don't take the person's INTERPRETATION of the verses as .... "gospel". The interpretation is open to debate and personal tastes.

Similarly, I would expect anyone who does not currently spend their time studying the Christian scriptures with the goal of understanding them to recognize that someone who does currently spend their time studying the scriptures probably knows more about those scriptures.

Well, I agree. A person spending more time on a subject than I do probably knows MORE about the subject than I do. Granted.

This makes perfect sense.

HOWEVER.....

This doesn't mean that his or her INTERPRETATION is correct, or the only possible correct one.

And we should always CHECK when someone makes a claim for factual accuracy.. as mistakes have been known to happen.

[Haven]

Some non-Christians have studied the scriptures. However, a common (though of course not universal) practice among Protestants is to devote a portion of every day to studying the scriptures.

I'm aware of that -- I was a devout Protestant for 24 years. The problem with devotional Bible study, in my opinion, is that it takes an uncritical look at the text. The goal in devotional reading isn't to understand the historical context behind the writing or the reality behind the claims it makes, but to "get fed" by receiving some spiritual message from the book. That kind of reading, while personally enriching to Christians, really doesn't help anyone answer questions behind what the Bible is really saying, what the original authors meant, and whether the claims it makes are true.

Such a practice is exceedingly rare among non-Christians. You claim to study the Christians scriptures for “academic and intellectual reasons.� Are you saying that you read the Christian scriptures every day? If so, you are a rarity among non-theists. If not, then you do not study the scriptures as much as an average, non-academic Christian who is active in her faith. This says nothing of those who are both devote Christians and who are involved in the academic study of the scriptures.

I don't know about "every day," but I certainly interact with the Biblical text at least three times a week. I also try to delve into the Hebrew and Greek (though I'm far from perfect in those languages; always trying to learn more).

When I was a Christian, I did read daily, but it was the uncritical devotional reading discussed above (critical reading of the text is what first made me question Christianity).

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 1 by Peds nurse]

question 1

Peds if you believe you have "the" GOD living inside you........Why would you need to study anything???

The more we know God, the more freely His Spirit works in us, or we allow it to. We are still human, we can resist God, and ignore His Spirit all together!

question2

Peds if indeed "the" GOD........has in fact lived inside christians and "guided" them.......shouldn't after 1500 plus years it all be settled by now instead of more and more fracturing of christianity

I am not sure what you are referring to, as being "settled." Christians are not perfect (surprise...lol). We deviate from God's word, His Spirit, and even from the church at times.
question3

Peds...since "the" GOD lives inside you I would assume YOU absolutely know what a "true christian" is......can you provide us...... the unwashed nonbelieving simpletons with some sort of mechanism of how to discern the "real christians" from the others.

I am so SINCERELY sorry if I have given you or anyone the impression that I hold the corner market on being a proper Christian. In my most humble opinion, I don't even think that exists! We are not perfect, but the good news is, that we don't have to be, because we serve a perfect God. In the Bible, it does say that we will be known by our fruits! .....Bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God...Colossians 1:10.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 35:

The more we know God, the more freely His Spirit works in us, or we allow it to.
...
Christians are not perfect (surprise...lol). We deviate from God's word, His Spirit, and even from the church at times.
...
We are not perfect, but the good news is, that we don't have to be, because we serve a perfect God.
...

So we're being asked to accept this Christian God's
'perfect' based on the testimony of imperfect Christians?

I propose that if this god were so perfect, he'd be able to get his message to folks without relying on such an imperfect means to do it.


Further evidence of this religion being a human construct. Where one can't be perfect (however defined), they find 'em a 'perfect' thing to look up to.

[Peds nurse]

I am wondering if it isn't because we understand differently, but our focus is different? Here me out for a minute...

According to the Bible, God made each of us, and all of us are uniquely different. We all have different gifts and talents. If my gift is evangelizing, then my focus on scripture will come from that angle. If my gift is service, then my focus will come from that perspective.

Would you not agree that personalities, experiences, and our gifts, affect our ability to interpret various data? Why do we go to a movie and some like it, some don't, some remembered certain scenes, while others remembered something completely different?

Then the holy spirit is worthless.

If the holy spirit is there, then it should be guiding you to the correct interpretation and preventing you from allowing other influences to taint what you are reading. If every true Christian has this spirit, this super power, then there should be unity. But even within denominations, even among people with the same focus, the unity is not there. Thus the need for bible discussion groups and meetings where you can discuss exactly what the bible means. (and even then you don't normally end up in agreement).

Any claims of holy spirit discernment become nothing more than a fantasy because of this lack of unity.

If the holy spirit is not able to bring unity when it comes to understanding the bible, then it's either very weak and pathetic or its non existent. What we really have is just believers all with differing opinions and perspectives, all tainted by their own preconceived ideas and experiences. Understanding that is clearly no more superior to that of non-Christians.

It is true that our own agenda's do get in the way of our understanding, but that does not mean that God isn't creating unity.

I have to agree with OnceConvinced here, he hit the nail right on the head: "Then the holy spirit is worthless.

If the holy spirit is there, then it should be guiding you to the correct interpretation and preventing you from allowing other influences to taint what you are reading. If every true Christian has this spirit, this super power, then there should be unity."

I don't think it is as simple as that Arian. Remember in the New Testament where Paul was talking about some people thinking it is okay to eat some food, while others found it to not honor God? Does it mean that the Spirit isn't working in either case? No, it means that through the Spirit and our interpretations we might deviate some on things that are not an eternal matter. Where the Spirit comes into play, is when we can put on love, and in our disagreements or preferences, not disrespect or cause someone to sin.

The only unity that I have seen between all the denominations I attended (JW's, 7th-Day Adv. Catholic, different Baptists, Presbyterian, Church of Christ, Apostolic Nazarene the Old country, US Nazarene, The Two by Twos (German), Calvary Chapel (Chuck Smith and Chuck Missler Ca.) also some Calvary Chapel here in AZ, conversations with Westboro Baptist Church leaders, and many other non-Denominational churches is that they all believe in a Triune-plural-god, another words a plural-god who is one - but many, at least three, which according to the Bible is the demon Legion.

You are calling the Trinity a demon Legion? As far as I know that was the scenario with the pigs...

Also that to get to be a high paying Christian Minister one has to go to a school of Divinity, or a Trinity College to get a degree in 'Divination'.
They all agree (except for the JW's) that we must obey our Leaders because God appointed them, no matter what religion he/she/it may be, what multi gender or whatever his/her/its purpose in attacking another country is, even if it too is a Christian Country, they are to 'OBEY'.
But hey, .. "What would Jesus do?" right?

I am unsure of the high paying Minister's who attend Seminary. Mega Churches may get paid big bucks...but that is all I am aware of.

So yes, they (all the Christian Religious Denominations) are very united on that, so how can Gods Holy Spirit, another words, 'God' be keeping unity? That is NOT the Holy Spirit that's keeping unity on the above mentioned doctrines, but Lucifer and the anti-Christ.

It is a sin to protect our country? Did not God go to war to protect His people? Is this not the same God?

Talking and meeting for Bible Study is good because it draws us nearer to not only God, but each other.

So does a big pot-luck without even a mention of God. I have been to so many different denominational Bible studies that I lost count many years ago, and I testify before you all here, .. my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, before all the Holy Angels, all in the presence of our One, the only One Possible the Infinite and Eternal Creative Mind/Spirit "I Am Who I Am" God that the God that the Christian Religions worship is NOT our God of the Bible, but the very opposite. It is the god of this world Lucifer, the Devil that they bow in servitude and worship!

I don't swear on anything, but I assure you that our church does not worship the Devil. The Devil is evil, and there is no good in him, so how can good things come from the church? A house divided will not stand.

All the denominations already made a pact with the Jesuit (who were always Luciferian) Pope to be One, since for the past 1,700 years they all worshipped the same Deity, a created fallen Angel, who man has chosen as their god of this world; Lucifer/Satan/that serpent the Devil.

That is a pretty bold statement, since the only one who actually knows the hearts of men, is God. You are sure that you have the authority to judge who worships whom?

God doesn't have some program that punches out Christians to be all the same. We are different, and we have different thoughts, but that does not mean the Spirit isn't working.

I doubt that is the 'difference' that OnceConvinced was pointing out!? Yes we are all different, but supposed to be of the same mind, which is of Christ. So either we "turn the other cheek" or blow our enemies unarmed old men, women and children to kingdom-come, bypassing all rules of war, going as low as any human can go to kill entire cities of innocent unarmed civilians (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) in the name of 'Christ'! I mean right there should tell any so called Christian that read the New Testament just ONCE that that is NOT what Jesus would do.

No, but I do wonder what Jesus would tell you. Would He tell you to judge the eternity of the churches? Jesus came to this world so that we might be saved through His blood, and all who believe will be saved. It isn't up to us to judge who is being sincere and who is not, because we cannot know the hearts (intent) of man.

Wake up people, because God has provided just about everything for us to study His Word. There is no longer any excuse. I, an unschooled idiot has every Bible (minus the satanic ones) and commentary, Bible dictionary available, and now it's on line, so anyone can look up Scripture, any word or phrase in seconds. Is your vision poor? Just turn on the audio Bible and choose who you want to read for you, .. dramatized or not!

We can look up things Arian, but not everything is truth. I am telling you without love, everything we consider worthy and meaningful, is actually meaningless. A resounding gong.....

So as OnceConvinced said, I also agree that we Christians should not be so different as we are today!? And so confused on who our Creator God is to bow down to idols, or give ear to divining spirits! And what's even worse, is that Christians go to school to get a degree in Divination to become 'diviners' to these demonic spirits!

So who is a Christian? Is it someone who got baptized (infant or not) in the Christian Religion in the name of some triune gods, .. or the one who was baptized by Gods Holy Spirit in the "Newness of their Minds"?

There is truth my sweet friend, and His truth will set us free, but once again, without His love....it is pointless...

And I can tell you this, that no certified "Minister-Diviner" who worships a sun-god amongst the three gods will be able to give you the 'Holy Spirit' by the laying on of his hand. Oh you will receive a spirit alright, the spirit of confusion, which will instruct you to go against Jesus own teachings. Against God Himself! So please, people, take another good look at the scripture and see what it really says without the religious blinders on! Your eternal life is riding on this, and most likely your loved ones too!?

I see your passion Arian, for people to see the truth, but I am afraid that you are going about it all wrong. Jesus was gentle, except to the pharisees, who with their rigid laws, made it impossible for people to know God. It isn't about the behavior...it has always been about His love...that is in the scriptures.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 37:

...
Jesus was gentle, except to the pharisees, who with their rigid laws, made it impossible for people to know God.
...

I propose the greatest impediment to folks knowin' God, is him not being there for 'em to do it.

As before, you propose this 'perfect' God, who then relies on imperfect folks to introduce himself to other imperfect folks.

That ain't no god, that's a conundrum.

[Korah]

[Replying to post 38 by JoeyKnothead]
Lest any prig or over-sensitive Christian be inclined to file a report about the final word used in the previous post, I advise that person first look up that word in the dictionary, EXACTLY as spelled here.

[OnceConvinced]

It is true that our own agenda's do get in the way of our understanding,

That then means that our minds are stronger than the power of the holy spirit.

First you have to accept, or allow the Holy Spirit into you, into your heart, into your mind and let Him guide you.

Which is what every Christian believes they have done and are doing.

As far as you go, you admit evolution is the best explanation for the existence of biological life here on earth, so according to evolution you don't have an individual mind separate from your brain.

I only know of one mind and that's in the human brain. If you wish to claim there is some other airy fairy supernatural part of our body that can’t be detected, the onus is on you to prove it.

God will not come into you and control your brain, He is there to 'guide' your mind, to make the right decisions. You are still in the evolution stage, no individual mind yet.

What good is the holy spirit if it does not guide you to the truth? Exactly what benefit does it have if all you are going to do is come to your own conclusions, which go against what the holy spirit is trying to tell you?

Can you point to any Christian who is truly following what the holy spirit teaches?

Hopefully the Blue-brain people will create one for you, which you can take home on disk. Actually your loved ones will be able to take it home cause it will cost you your life in exchange for the disk.

What on earth are you talking about?

And if our own agenda or mind trumps the holy spirit, what advantage is the holy spirit? Exactly how is it bringing you the correct understanding of scripture if your own agenda usurps it?

Our minds can get preoccupied with the things of this world, the physical things, so all we have to do is allow Gods Holy Spirit to guide us. But first we have to discern which 'spirit' we allow to guide us, and if we worship Deities (demonic spirits) who come to us through false teachers, diviners/mediums, they would never allow Gods Holy Spirit in to guide us.

And exactly how does one determine what is the false stuff ? How does one know that they are hearing the correct stuff? If it was as simple as what you are claiming, then many Christians would be in unity. But they’re not. No two Christians can agree on anything. The evidence shows us that there is no holy spirit and Christians rely on their own perspectives and understandings to interpret the bible, just as non-Christians do. What you are talking about just sounds like religious fantasy.

I thought you were a Christian, these are all basic teachings!?!?

No, I’m an Ex-Christian, but as a Christian I would have said the same types of things as you. On other threads, recently, I have been taking the Christian perspective, but if you go back to my original post on THIS thread you will see that first off I said:

Ok, I just had to jump in here from my usual non-believing perspective. I could not just let it go.

Now if we 'believe' we are animals, or just a product of some purposeless chaotic evolutionary accident through mutation, none of this even matters. Even Satan wouldn't waste his time with that person since animals, human animals or not, will follow Lucifer by instinct, like he knows that if he flashes money, or fame or offers a lawless lifestyle (do as thou wilt) the goats are sure to follow.
.

Why are you talking about Lucifer? He is an imaginary being. I have no need for imaginary friends, let alone imaginary enemies.

Lucifer only concerns himself with those sheep of Christ who actively oppose him and his lies, not the goats that already follow him

In which case us non-believers would be in a better position to determine what the bible is ACTUALLY saying because we don't have Lucifer trying to warp our understanding of it.

So really you have no advantage over the non-believer as your agenda makes mincemeat of the holy spirit every time.

LOL, .. mincemeat, how funny. But you have that backwards, it is Satan's demonic evil spirit that makes mincemeat of peoples brain, so we must pray non-ceasing, another words always mindful of God as we go about our daily business, or our agendas will become the main focus of our life.

Ok, your imaginary enemy. Mr Freddie Kruger himself is more influential than the holy spirit. What does that say about the holy spirit? Not much! LMAO.

but that does not mean that God isn't creating unity.

Well let's see that unity then. Let's see it simply with the Christian members of this here website.

Yes, and as I pointed out in my previous post, we must choose which spirit it is we allow to guide us? Is it the spirit of demons, deities who reside in the supernatural realm divining to willing mediums, .. or are we calling upon Gods Holy Spirit who reveals His message to us through many different ways, including science which is as we observe the world around us.
Not like Allen G. White, or Joseph Smith, or the Quakers who called upon Deities like Legion, Gorgo or Mormo and listened to their divinations!

Pity the holy spirit is so impotent, isn't it?

Talking and meeting for Bible Study is good because it draws us nearer to not only God, but each other. God doesn't have some program that punches out Christians to be all the same. We are different, and we have different thoughts, but that does not mean the Spirit isn't working.

But yet our agenda trumps the holy spirit every time. So anyone claiming to have the holy spirit guiding them and giving them correct understanding is kidding themselves.

Yes, they could very well be kidding themselves if they think a triune plural god of the Trinity Doctrine will help them overcome their agendas.

And you could be kidding yourself too. In fact it seems to me that you are.

He will actually create more agendas, more problems in our lives rather than help us overcome them. You see Satan can come to people as an angel of light, mimicking almost, .. or half-truths, which we can see in todays Christian Religions, all of them, every Christian Religious denomination of them.

I get it . You believe in Freddie Kruger. And I should believe there’s some evil creature that God created, running rampant trying to destroy everything why?

I makes me laugh that you mock something like evolution, which you clearly don’t understand, and then talk about imagery monsters that run rampant trying to lead Christians astray. Do you really think that hard about the stuff you’re preaching?

We must choose whom we shall serve?

If I’m going to serve anything I need to first have proof that this thing exists.

Either Deities who reside and divine to Christian-mediums from the supernatural realm, or our Creator God, the Infinite and Eternal Creative Mind/Spirit "I Am Who I Am" who is revealed in us who were created in His image, and who speaks to us through His Prophets and His Son Word which is recorded in the Bible!?

And you mock evolution?