"I am NOT an animal"

[Zzyzx]

.
"I am NOT an animal"

Many who do not appear to have much knowledge of biology seem indignant when learning that H. sapiens are classified as animals (alternatives being plant and virus). I do not recall ever hearing a Non-Theist object. 1) Is there something about religion that causes this?

You see I am NOT an animal, never was and never in a billion years will I evolve to be one, my family tree all the way back to Adam don't have one ape in it.

2) Why be upset, indignant or in denial about a biological / taxonomic classification?

3) Since humans differ from other animals only in degree (some mental and physical characteristics), what is the objection to recognizing that they are animals?

4) Is anything other than religion (and possibly narcissism) involved?


In the quoted statement someone (whose theological position apparently defies description) claims knowledge of his family tree back to Adam – as though that proves the claimant is not an animal. However, if the hypothetical Adam was human (H. sapiens), he (Adam) classifies as an animal.

[KenRU]

That should teach him not to use Godly wisdom against Omega and his followers! Or stand up for himself that he is not an animal! How dare he?

I see, rules shouldn't apply to those who believe in god/jesus, is that your argument? Perhaps the rules are unfair. Which ones are unfair?

In my year and a half on this forum, I have encountered nothing but fair moderators (on both sides of the aisle) and seen posters of all persuasions warned and banned.

Just saying ...

Your atheist - against magical thinking comment has been received Danmark, and I thank you.

Arian, I'm guessing you quoted the wrong person here?

[Zzyzx]

.
[Replying to post 249 by arian]

The only "point" in this rant that I deem worthy of reply:

I see as the "Christianity" part of this Debating Forum is dying out,

Why is that Arian?

Could it have something to do with all the supernatural tales, testimonials and stories cannot be shown to be anything more than imagination, hallucination, delusion, fabrication, etc?

Lol, .. of course not. It's because most of the Moderators are atheists, or some other New Name for God haters like 'ignostic', 'non-theist', .. 'wants evidence' that they would consider evidence (no books allowed, but must show evidence on the forum in writing, .. ).

CORRECTION: The Moderating Team is evenly divided between Theists and Non-Theists – as anyone can verify by using the "Moderators" link atop C&A sub-forum to display the list of moderators and a link to their profile.

For those who have difficulty with technology: http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/groupcp.php?g=29 Dianaiad, Wootah, Elijah John and Otseng are Theists. McCulloch, Bust Nak, Danmark, and Zzyzx are Non-Theists.

How can anyone in their right mind make "most moderators are atheist" from that verifiable list?

Those who do not fare well in debate often attempt to make excuses or save face by claiming that the Moderating Team is against them. Nothing could be further from the truth. They just don't do well on a level playing field where no theological position is favored.

If a Theist has complaints they are welcome to PM Otseng, Christian site owner, and explain to him how they are being "discriminated against".

Additionally: Books are permitted as reference citations; however, no book including religious books, can be cited as proof of truth. Bible proponents often seem to think that their book should be accepted as ultimate truth. That may work in church but does not apply in these debates.

[OnceConvinced]

What happened to squint?

That should teach him not to use Godly wisdom against Omega and his followers! Or stand up for himself that he is not an animal! How dare he?

Godly wisdom would lead one to take care how they tread and not violate forum rules. Godly wisdom would also be recognized and acclaimed.

Recognized by whom? Don't you remember what they did to Jesus?

Perhaps Jesus wasn’t as wise as he claimed to be?

Pro 18:6
A fool's lips bring him strife, and his mouth invites a beating.

Pro 16:7
When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.

Pro 16:18
Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.

i suggest you watch "The Passion of the Christ" by Mel Gibson to get a reminder of how He was 'acclaimed', .. praised enthusiastically and publicly!

LOL. I give you “God’s word� and you give me a movie?

I have watched it, but I see no reason to accept Mel Gibson’s take on it. There was a lot of artistic license applied to the film.

Pro 12:8
A man is praised according to his wisdom, but men with warped minds are despised.

Oh yes, those were the good ol' days of Solomon, unfortunately as you can see in the world today it has become the opposite, where evil, killings, war for money, sins like homosexuality is legalized, where men with warped and greedy minds are praised and worshipped (Hitler, Lady Gaga, Jay-Z and Beyoncé etc. I could go on and on, ..) all praised and even worshipped as gods and goddesses.

LOL. I give you "God’s word" and you give me Lady Gaga and Jay-Z?

A wise man exhibits self control:

James 1:26, "If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight reign on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless."

I told you many times, "I am NOT religious", and I don't want to give the wrong impression.

Do you or have you conducted any of these religious rituals? If so then you are clearly religious:

1) Speaking in tongues.
2) Anointing with oil.
3) Casting out of Demons Raising hands to God. Baptism.
4) Communion.
5) Attending Church.
6) Singing together as a congregation.
7) Prayer.
8) Daily reading of the bible.

And if you take the bible seriously, then you would know true Christianity is definitely a religion. You would in fact be arguing with James:

James 1:26 & 27 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Colossians 4:5-6
Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time. Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

.. have I left a question concerning my Lord Jesus Christ, or who is our heavenly Father, .. or interpreting the Bible unanswered?
Am I look warm on important issues?
Is my speech bland?

I’ve never claimed such things about you.

Now I do admit my debates are not very graceful, but considering the times and how evil is being condoned and good is being literally banned from public, the Word of God has now become a sword. It may not look very graceful when it splits people open revealing the deepest secrets of their hearts that's true, but it isn't meant to look graceful either, right?

I have already commented on posts of yours that are in mocking tones. Definitely not graceful and seasoned with salt. Thus can you really claim to be walking in wisdom? Based on your own admission that your debates are not very graceful, then you are not.

Matthew 10:34
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword."

So you’re claiming to be Jesus now?

Pro 16:7
When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.

That is SO true, isn't it?

Funny that Jesus’s enemies did not live at peace with him, isn’t it? What does that tell you about Jesus ways?

--------------------------------
I see as the "Christianity" part of this Debating Forum is dying out, the "Religion" part is becoming stronger and more prevalent.
Soon it will be "Atheists Debating Christianity & Religion"

Doesn't say much for the holy spirit does it?

It's like the loving mother who is telling her teens: "Please, don't go to that concert/party, I see so much danger lurking with the drugs and liquor, the abandon lifestyle, please don't go baby, I'm worried for you!" .. or the father who keeps going to the gate and looking down the road hoping for his sons safe return (Prodigals son), so what do you mean by; "it doesn't say much?"

The fact that Christians aren’t dominating this forum. With God on their side… with the holy spirit on their side, they should be the ones coming out on top. The fact that they aren’t shows that the holy spirit is weak. Either that or the holy spirit just doesn’t exist. I’m more inclined to go with the latter.

You got used to religion telling you to "Get up and go to church or you'll burn in hell!"

Err no. I was well aware that you did not have to go to church to be a Christian. Being a Christian has nothing to do with whether you go to church every week or not. Nobody ever taught me that if you didn’t go to church you’d go to hell and if they did I would have challenged them to prove that with scripture.

[arian]

.
[Replying to post 249 by arian]

The only "point" in this rant that I deem worthy of reply:

I see as the "Christianity" part of this Debating Forum is dying out,

Why is that Arian?

Could it have something to do with all the supernatural tales, testimonials and stories cannot be shown to be anything more than imagination, hallucination, delusion, fabrication, etc?

Lol, .. of course not. It's because most of the Moderators are atheists, or some other New Name for God haters like 'ignostic', 'non-theist', .. 'wants evidence' that they would consider evidence (no books allowed, but must show evidence on the forum in writing, .. ).

CORRECTION: The Moderating Team is evenly divided between Theists and Non-Theists – as anyone can verify by using the "Moderators" link atop C&A sub-forum to display the list of moderators and a link to their profile.

For those who have difficulty with technology: http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/groupcp.php?g=29 Dianaiad, Wootah, Elijah John and Otseng are Theists. McCulloch, Bust Nak, Danmark, and Zzyzx are Non-Theists.

How can anyone in their right mind make "most moderators are atheist" from that verifiable list?

To answer that would be 'personal', so I'll just leave it at that, thanks Z. Besides, I do respect the Moderators for moderating, my gripe is of the personal nature about debates, not moderators.

Those who do not fare well in debate often attempt to make excuses or save face by claiming that the Moderating Team is against them. Nothing could be further from the truth. They just don't do well on a level playing field where no theological position is favored.

Of course, .. it must be just me. I apologize and retract any blanket comment on the Moderator Team, like I said, it was of the personal nature, which is not allowed. I understand. Like I keep saying, I love the Moderator team and thankful for them moderating, I sure couldn't do it. It was something personal regarding debates. I have been advised to leave the 'you' out of my comments, so maybe that will help understand me that it is not against the individual, but their beliefs. It is what we are debating, right?

If a Theist has complaints they are welcome to PM Otseng, Christian site owner, and explain to him how they are being "discriminated against".

Oh for Petesake Z, please don't make this personal against the Moderator team, I made a comment about the debates, about world views of debaters (Moderators or not) and how it obviously leaks in to Moderator decisions. I never said I feel discriminated against, .. it's all about our debates. Oh never mind, I am sorry, so let's leave it at that OK?

Additionally: Books are permitted as reference citations; however, no book including religious books, can be cited as proof of truth.

Oh yes, it's easy to say that for someone who holds no particular position, a general example would be someone who is: not an atheist, not a Christian, not an Evolutionist, not a believer in the BB theory, not interested in knowing God scientifically or otherwise because they don't have any use for a god, any god, only wants 'evidence', but not from books (as you made that clear above), no YouTube or any videos because they cannot be verified to their expectation (what those expectations are remains a deep secret??), no Wikipedia quotes can be accepted as evidence, no history books, no eye witness accounts of the 'mysterious nature' (they call it delusions or sings of serious mental illness), and so on. BUT, .. "give me, show me evidence" (I was going to put an emoticon here, or a lol, but i guess that would be taken personally)

Bible proponents often seem to think that their book should be accepted as ultimate truth. That may work in church but does not apply in these debates.

I don't go to church, nor do I say "because the Bible says so", but in my labeled; delusional psychotic world, books, videos, TV documentaries, movies, video lectures from different colleges I could never dream ever being able to attend help me look at, and question the world around me from different perspectives instead of 'just taking the word from religious groups'.

Besides, let me get this straight; so when discussing Bible God, the Bible cannot be used as 'ultimate truth' about Bible God?

What I mean is, when and if we were discussing Peter Pan, you're saying we couldn't use J.M. Barrie's book on Peter Pan as the ultimate truth on Peter Pan?

I pray at least a few things I mentioned here are 'worthy of your answer'? If not, it's OK, I won't take it personally.

[arian]

What happened to squint?

That should teach him not to use Godly wisdom against Omega and his followers! Or stand up for himself that he is not an animal! How dare he?

Godly wisdom would lead one to take care how they tread and not violate forum rules. Godly wisdom would also be recognized and acclaimed.

Recognized by whom? Don't you remember what they did to Jesus?

Perhaps Jesus wasn’t as wise as he claimed to be?

Pro 18:6
A fool's lips bring him strife, and his mouth invites a beating.

Pro 16:7
When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.

Pro 16:18
Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.

Wow, .. that is the most evil, degrading, insulting, unfair, unjust comment against Jesus Christ (the Bible Jesus Christ, not the Christian sun-god) I have ever heard. I'm just waiting how many 'likes' you will get for this post?

So starting from Abel, to Job, to Jesus, according to your above quotes from the Bible, they had it coming?

No wonder there are so many ex-Christians who left the Religion, if this is what you've learned from them over the 30 years, .. good choice.

i suggest you watch "The Passion of the Christ" by Mel Gibson to get a reminder of how He was 'acclaimed', .. praised enthusiastically and publicly!

LOL. I give you “God’s word� and you give me a movie?

I have watched it, but I see no reason to accept Mel Gibson’s take on it. There was a lot of artistic license applied to the film.

It was a movie depicting 'Gods Word Jesus Christ'. IMHO Mr. Gibson got the message across to both Jews and Gentiles really clear. But that's my 'non-religious' POV.

Pro 12:8
A man is praised according to his wisdom, but men with warped minds are despised.

Oh yes, those were the good ol' days of Solomon, unfortunately as you can see in the world today it has become the opposite, where evil, killings, war for money, sins like homosexuality is legalized, where men with warped and greedy minds are praised and worshipped (Hitler, Lady Gaga, Jay-Z and Beyoncé etc. I could go on and on, ..) all praised and even worshipped as gods and goddesses.

LOL. I give you "God’s word" and you give me Lady Gaga and Jay-Z?

The first few months of the 30 year membership in any religious group that use the Bible should be to learn that the Bible contains the 'words' of man, demons, the devil, Angels, Prophets, Jesus and God to addressed specific individuals.
Hitler, Lady Gaga, Jay-Z and Beyoncé messages were also from, and to spec ific individuals. They don't hide this fact, they make it perfectly clear. So yes, I gave you Jay-z!?

A wise man exhibits self control:

James 1:26, "If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight reign on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless."

I told you many times, "I am NOT religious", and I don't want to give the wrong impression.

Do you or have you conducted any of these religious rituals? If so then you are clearly religious:

1) Speaking in tongues.
2) Anointing with oil.
3) Casting out of Demons Raising hands to God. Baptism.
4) Communion.
5) Attending Church.
6) Singing together as a congregation.
7) Prayer.
8) Daily reading of the bible.

And if you take the bible seriously, then you would know true Christianity is definitely a religion. You would in fact be arguing with James:

James 1:26 & 27 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Read it again, it is clear that we should not preach religion from man made religious doctrines, but act religiously as in deeds, and not as we have the Religious Christian Churches doing today; they read Jesus sermon "Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you and persecute you, .." then they have everyone bow; "Let us pray for our soldiers, our young men and women who have been risking their lives and are about to embark on another tour to Afghanistan/Iraq to keep our the war-industry going so everyone in this congregation could have a job (and to make sure the Arabs don't control the price on oil which would drop to .50c per gallon since they have so much of it) all in obedience to our three-gods and the god-chosen Leaders of our country."

And yes, for the hundredth time, I agree that the Constantine created Christianity is a religion, with each denomination having their own personal interpretation of who Bible God is, and what He really meant to say in there. I mean the audacity to create a doctrine to explain who God is, like this Trinity doctrine is truly blasphemous. "How Dare they?" .. right OnceConvinced? When the Bible is perfectly clear in its definition of God, his Son Word, how he came down and was born of a virgin and be called Jesus.

Jesus didn't come to create yet another religion, but actually to destroy organized religion with their personal interpretation of Gods Word which He made perfectly clear by his Prophets.

Colossians 4:5-6
Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time. Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

.. have I left a question concerning my Lord Jesus Christ, or who is our heavenly Father, .. or interpreting the Bible unanswered?
Am I look warm on important issues?
Is my speech bland?

I’ve never claimed such things about you.

So why quote Colossians to me?

Now I do admit my debates are not very graceful, but considering the times and how evil is being condoned and good is being literally banned from public, the Word of God has now become a sword. It may not look very graceful when it splits people open revealing the deepest secrets of their hearts that's true, but it isn't meant to look graceful either, right?

I have already commented on posts of yours that are in mocking tones. Definitely not graceful and seasoned with salt. Thus can you really claim to be walking in wisdom? Based on your own admission that your debates are not very graceful, then you are not.

When we are called to tell of coming judgment, pointing out evil and such, it never seems graceful, I don't believe it supposed to!?

Matthew 10:34
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword."

So you’re claiming to be Jesus now?

Did I ever claim something like that? But I'm glad you remember who said that, Jesus, not Odon/arian, .. right?

Pro 16:7
When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.

That is SO true, isn't it?

Funny that Jesus’s enemies did not live at peace with him, isn’t it? What does that tell you about Jesus ways?

.. that wicked people hate do-gooders? That's why they killed the Kennedy brothers and also Martin Luther King and millions of Disciples of Christ over the years isn't it?

Imagine if everyone lived in a mansion (which is what Jesus is preparing for those who love him), do you think the Queen of England, or the special Illuminated Ones would want to live down the street with common folk in their castles? Or wait in line back of a plumber to take off with their jets at the airport runway?

Greed is jealous and proud also, this is why they build such powerful armies to protect their wealth. They also want to keep the workers working, and enjoying time off for vacation less and less (offering them double time to work over their vacations and holydays), need creates dependence, and the wicked create the addiction (mortgage, credit cards) and they supply their addiction with just enough money to survive month to month, just enough drugs to keep them working all the overtime, and of course religion to keep them from God so they would keep coming back seeking, and also to keep these goats keep sending and risking their children's lives to protect their great wealth, and wars to create more wealth for themselves.

Tell me, why is it that an uneducated dumb idiot like me can see this, yet those with higher degrees and with education can't? Want the answer?
The dumb unschooled idiot can see, because his eyes have been opened by the Holy Spirit, while the schooled, smart, intelligent with all kinds of degrees lack the Holy spirit so they walk around in darkness lead by none other than the wicked one, Lucifer.

--------------------------------
I see as the "Christianity" part of this Debating Forum is dying out, the "Religion" part is becoming stronger and more prevalent.
Soon it will be "Atheists Debating Christianity & Religion"

Doesn't say much for the holy spirit does it?

It's like the loving mother who is telling her teens: "Please, don't go to that concert/party, I see so much danger lurking with the drugs and liquor, the abandon lifestyle, please don't go baby, I'm worried for you!" .. or the father who keeps going to the gate and looking down the road hoping for his sons safe return (Prodigals son), so what do you mean by; "it doesn't say much?"

The fact that Christians aren’t dominating this forum. With God on their side… with the holy spirit on their side, they should be the ones coming out on top. The fact that they aren’t shows that the holy spirit is weak. Either that or the holy spirit just doesn’t exist. I’m more inclined to go with the latter.

Which 'Christian god, and holy spirit' are you talking about, the Triune ones? I would like to remind you of the fact that the Christian Religion is very much on the top from a worldly perspective, the Vatican owns half the world, land, wealth, servants and all. But of course in debate, like atheists who know the Bible, will always come on top, but in debates ONLY. Because anyone who can read could point out their flaws from a Biblical perspective. Heck, even I can do it.

Want to try me and see if I have Gods Holy Spirit or not? Don't pick easy targets like religions who receive their information through divining lying spirits, try me and see if my non-religious interpretation is weak or not?

You got used to religion telling you to "Get up and go to church or you'll burn in hell!"

Err no. I was well aware that you did not have to go to church to be a Christian. Being a Christian has nothing to do with whether you go to church every week or not. Nobody ever taught me that if you didn’t go to church you’d go to hell and if they did I would have challenged them to prove that with scripture.

Well something must have kept you going for 30 years, if not the threat of hell, what was it? Wait, was it the 'slicing of the neck ear to ear' hand signal? Is that it? Why would you leave when so far I can't see any reason for you to have left?

You still hold on to the same Biblical interpretations you learned from them, so what could you have possibly gained from leaving? New and better friends, .. what?

Thanks again.

[Danmark]

Perhaps Jesus wasn’t as wise as he claimed to be?

Pro 18:6
A fool's lips bring him strife, and his mouth invites a beating.

Pro 16:7
When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.

Pro 16:18
Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.

Wow, .. that is the most evil, degrading, insulting, unfair, unjust comment against Jesus Christ (the Bible Jesus Christ, not the Christian sun-god) I have ever heard. I'm just waiting how many 'likes' you will get for this post?

Why is it evil to quote scripture and suggest it might apply to Jesus?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 254 by arian]

Wow, .. that is the most evil, degrading, insulting, unfair, unjust comment against Jesus Christ (the Bible Jesus Christ, not the Christian sun-god) I have ever heard. I'm just waiting how many 'likes' you will get for this post?

So starting from Abel, to Job, to Jesus, according to your above quotes from the Bible, they had it coming?

No wonder there are so many ex-Christians who left the Religion, if this is what you've learned from them over the 30 years, .. good choice.

Moderator Warning

Arian - nearly all of the above is irrelevant to debate and a personal attack. My advice is to relax a bit and not post angry in future.

Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[arian]

Perhaps Jesus wasn’t as wise as he claimed to be?

Pro 18:6
A fool's lips bring him strife, and his mouth invites a beating.

Pro 16:7
When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.

Pro 16:18
Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.

Wow, .. that is the most evil, degrading, insulting, unfair, unjust comment against Jesus Christ (the Bible Jesus Christ, not the Christian sun-god) I have ever heard. I'm just waiting how many 'likes' you will get for this post?

Why is it evil to quote scripture and suggest it might apply to Jesus?

Never mind, .. I retract my comment. Of course one scripture, especially OT scripture can be used to apply to Jesus Christ, His whole purpose for coming here was to fulfill every dot of the law. So where is the NT quotes where this can be used against Jesus Christ?

Oh yea I forgot, non needed, this is not about Biblical fairness or justice, besides .. the Bible cannot be used to prove anything. Atheist can use it to accuse, but Followers of Jesus are not allowed to know why the accusations. Got it. Actually in todays world, that is what's called fair, but Christians using the Bible to counter wicked evil claims is what? Oh yea, unfair, hateful, inhuman or so 'other human'.

Thank you for the reminder that Jesus just may have been evil and that is why good people hate Him so, .. instead of reminding everyone to get back on topic: "I am NOT an animal". Unless the above Debaters suggestion implied that Jesus was just an animal too, would explain why he was so evil that they tortured Him to death?

[Zzyzx]

.

my gripe is of the personal nature about debates, not moderators.

It seems ironic (to be kind) for someone griping about personal nature of debates to be addressing personally another debater as a substantial part of their post

Additionally: Books are permitted as reference citations; however, no book including religious books, can be cited as proof of truth.

Oh yes, it's easy to say that for someone who holds no particular position, a general example would be someone who is: not an atheist, not a Christian, not an Evolutionist, not a believer in the BB theory, not interested in knowing God scientifically or otherwise because they don't have any use for a god, any god, only wants 'evidence', but not from books (as you made that clear above), no YouTube or any videos because they cannot be verified to their expectation (what those expectations are remains a deep secret??), no Wikipedia quotes can be accepted as evidence, no history books, no eye witness accounts of the 'mysterious nature' (they call it delusions or sings of serious mental illness), and so on. BUT, .. "give me, show me evidence" (I was going to put an emoticon here, or a lol, but i guess that would be taken personally)

Quite a rant in response to "books ARE permitted as reference citations; however, no book including religious books, can be cited as proof of truth."

Besides, let me get this straight; so when discussing Bible God, the Bible cannot be used as 'ultimate truth' about Bible God?

Why not consult Forum Rules and Guidelines?

C&A Guideline 1. We are debating Christianity, pro and con, for and against, not debating with the assumption that Christianity is true. 4. Unsupported Bible quotations are to be considered as no more authoritative than unsupported quotations from any other book.

[arian]

.

my gripe is of the personal nature about debates, not moderators.

It seems ironic (to be kind) for someone griping about personal nature of debates to be addressing personally another debater as a substantial part of their post

I was debating what was said, and yes, we can use 'who said it', it's not about 'who said it' but what was said.
There, I said it.
Now who said it?
arian did.
what he say?
I was debating what was said, and yes, we can use 'who said it', it's not about 'who said it' but what was said.

ooh, now I made personal comments about arian, quick, give me a warning!

Additionally: Books are permitted as reference citations; however, no book including religious books, can be cited as proof of truth.

Oh yes, it's easy to say that for someone who holds no particular position, a general example would be someone who is: not an atheist, not a Christian, not an Evolutionist, not a believer in the BB theory, not interested in knowing God scientifically or otherwise because they don't have any use for a god, any god, only wants 'evidence', but not from books (as you made that clear above), no YouTube or any videos because they cannot be verified to their expectation (what those expectations are remains a deep secret??), no Wikipedia quotes can be accepted as evidence, no history books, no eye witness accounts of the 'mysterious nature' (they call it delusions or sings of serious mental illness), and so on. BUT, .. "give me, show me evidence" (I was going to put an emoticon here, or a lol, but i guess that would be taken personally)

Quite a rant in response to "books ARE permitted as reference citations; however, no book including religious books, can be cited as proof of truth."

So the Bibles claim that Jesus was the Son of God cannot be used as proof that the Bible Jesus (not outside of the Bible Religiously created Jesus's which are many, and the Bible warns us of them) ?? Like using J.M. Barrie's book on Peter Pan to justify peter Pan is not allowed?

Can you please explain this to me?

Besides, let me get this straight; so when discussing Bible God, the Bible cannot be used as 'ultimate truth' about Bible God?

Why not consult Forum Rules and Guidelines?

C&A Guideline 1. We are debating Christianity, pro and con, for and against, not debating with the assumption that Christianity is true. 4. Unsupported Bible quotations are to be considered as no more authoritative than unsupported quotations from any other book.

What? Please forgive my ignorance, but after 2,000 years, where else would we find the best description of Bible God, Bible Jesus and what he taught other than the Bible?
So what I understand this rule saying is that the Book of Mormon, or the Jay-Z Bible, or the Satanic Bible has equal authority on Bible-God and Bible Jesus and what they said as the Bible??

Oh hell no, .. I object your honor!