Is your gods punishment fair?

[Confused]

I am new to this site, so please bare with me if I seem a little of center. I will try to stick to the rules. After reading these threads for many years, I am just now getting the courage to start to ask questions of my own. feel free to correct me if I mess up.

Ok, lets for the sake of this thread say that the god of christianity is all knowing. Lets say the he knew what you were going to do before you were born, but loved you so much he still allowed your birth to occur. Let us even go far out into the left field and say that he knew what choices you would make in all decisions although he didn't force you to make them. I am not arguing free-will vs determinism. I am only wondering how it is that this god who knew what you would do, loved you so much he allowed your birth to do what you were going to do, and then punished you for doing what he knew you were going to do. If he already knew what would happen, and then allowed it to happen, how can he then turn around and sentence you to eternity in hell for what he knew you would do and allowed you to do?

Maybe I am missing some logical link here, but it seems to me that if this god knew the birth of an individual would result in the torture and death of even one person, isn't this god the actual guilty party for setting into motion an inevitable event? Is this the god that so many people would like for me to follow?

So does anyone know:
1) Does god love you so much that knowing what you would do and what you would become, he still allowed your birth so that you might know his love?

2) Is god some sadistic being who knows what you are going to do, allows you to be born, gets a cheap thrill watching you carry out some of the most sadistic crimes against humanity before sending you to the eternal fires of hell?

3) There is no god.

Personally, I have to say that there isn't enough available information to make an informed decision, but logic tells me its 3. If there is a god-fearing individual who can logically tell me otherwise, I would love to hear it.

[FiredUp4jesus]

So does anyone know:
1) Does god love you so much that knowing what you would do and what you would become, he still allowed your birth so that you might know his love?

2) Is god some sadistic being who knows what you are going to do, allows you to be born, gets a cheap thrill watching you carry out some of the most sadistic crimes against humanity before sending you to the eternal fires of hell?

3) There is no god.

Personally, I have to say that there isn't enough available information to make an informed decision, but logic tells me its 3. If there is a god-fearing individual who can logically tell me otherwise, I would love to hear it.

1) Yes.
2) No.
3) This is not a question. However, it seems to me that what you are basically asking is the age old question why would a loving God allow for suffering and death to occur in the world. And if I'm only going to rot in hell for ever why would he let me be born at all. First, I'll admit that these are difficult questions that everyone struggles with throughout their lives. I would also like to challenge you with an excercise that you may or may not accept. Instead of asking someone else to explain this to you. Why don't you try asking God? I've suggested this to a number of atheists on this site. So far, no a single one has been brave enough to try it. Pray to God, read His word, and seek to know His nature. Once you get to know God, and learn more about Him. The answers are actually pretty simple.

[Goat]

3) This is not a question. However, it seems to me that what you are basically asking is the age old question why would a loving God allow for suffering and death to occur in the world. And if I'm only going to rot in hell for ever why would he let me be born at all. First, I'll admit that these are difficult questions that everyone struggles with throughout their lives. I would also like to challenge you with an excercise that you may or may not accept. Instead of asking someone else to explain this to you. Why don't you try asking God? I've suggested this to a number of atheists on this site. So far, no a single one has been brave enough to try it. Pray to God, read His word, and seek to know His nature. Once you get to know God, and learn more about Him. The answers are actually pretty simple.

You know, that 'pray to god' is sort of a catch 22 there. For someoen to be earnest in their prayers to god, they have to believe in god first. That is sort of like a hindu asking you to get to know Brahma by praying to Brahma.

Just like you don't believe that Brahma exists, and therefore would be unable to pary to Brahma, the atheist doesn't believe that God exists, and therefore would not be able to pray to God.

[Metatron]

So does anyone know:
1) Does god love you so much that knowing what you would do and what you would become, he still allowed your birth so that you might know his love?

2) Is god some sadistic being who knows what you are going to do, allows you to be born, gets a cheap thrill watching you carry out some of the most sadistic crimes against humanity before sending you to the eternal fires of hell?

3) There is no god.

Personally, I have to say that there isn't enough available information to make an informed decision, but logic tells me its 3. If there is a god-fearing individual who can logically tell me otherwise, I would love to hear it.

1) Yes.
2) No.
3) This is not a question. However, it seems to me that what you are basically asking is the age old question why would a loving God allow for suffering and death to occur in the world. And if I'm only going to rot in hell for ever why would he let me be born at all. First, I'll admit that these are difficult questions that everyone struggles with throughout their lives. I would also like to challenge you with an excercise that you may or may not accept. Instead of asking someone else to explain this to you. Why don't you try asking God? I've suggested this to a number of atheists on this site. So far, no a single one has been brave enough to try it. Pray to God, read His word, and seek to know His nature. Once you get to know God, and learn more about Him. The answers are actually pretty simple.

I'm still trying to figure out how this is supposed to work if you do not believe God exists in the first place. So what do I do? Say the words of a prayer that has no meaning to me, stare into space, and wait for divine revelation to smack me upside the head? Even if God exists, it seems unlikely to me that he's going to be answering the prayers of someone who doesn't think prayer is meaningful.

[Cephus]

I'm still trying to figure out how this is supposed to work if you do not believe God exists in the first place. So what do I do? Say the words of a prayer that has no meaning to me, stare into space, and wait for divine revelation to smack me upside the head? Even if God exists, it seems unlikely to me that he's going to be answering the prayers of someone who doesn't think prayer is meaningful.

Unfortunately, there just isn't any way of finding knowledge of the existence of God without already believing in God. There's nothing to study. There's nothing to examine. You either blindly believe or you have to reject the concept. That's why so many around here do not believe, rational people don't just accept something without a shred of evidence to support it.

[Solon]

I've been reading this forum for a couple days, checking on debates old and new. It seems like a good place all in all, the level of self-regulation here is much higher than I've seen in other forums. There is one thing that seems to always limit the efficacy of debate though, people on either side of many debates including this one come to the table with diametrically opposed a priori assumptions. The level of reasonable debate and the possibility of reaching a conclusion is low unless this can be dealt with. Certain topics would be easier to agree on than others, but the point is that an argument must have basic assumption it builds from and if the members of a debate cannot agree on these then each side will attack the others' arguments as ridiculous or not based in fact or what have you. As an example, for this topic since the debate is about the fairness of God's punishment for sin, a reasonable assumption is for God to exist, otherwise what are you debating? Who is doing the punishing? In a debate about the existence or nature of God/The universe or whatever this assumption is not necessary. I guess I'm not really adding much to this debate specifically, but I wasn't sure where a post of this nature would belong.
I don't want you to get the idea that I don't think anything useful can come from the debates as they are, on the contrary I think there is great potential here, I merely hope to suggest a way of making the debates more useful to everyone involved, otherwise it is a debate without a common starting point. I hope to have fun and learn a lot in my time here, it seems like there are quite a few others here with the same attitude.

[FiredUp4jesus]

I've been reading this forum for a couple days, checking on debates old and new. It seems like a good place all in all, the level of self-regulation here is much higher than I've seen in other forums. There is one thing that seems to always limit the efficacy of debate though, people on either side of many debates including this one come to the table with diametrically opposed a priori assumptions. The level of reasonable debate and the possibility of reaching a conclusion is low unless this can be dealt with. Certain topics would be easier to agree on than others, but the point is that an argument must have basic assumption it builds from and if the members of a debate cannot agree on these then each side will attack the others' arguments as ridiculous or not based in fact or what have you. As an example, for this topic since the debate is about the fairness of God's punishment for sin, a reasonable assumption is for God to exist, otherwise what are you debating? Who is doing the punishing? In a debate about the existence or nature of God/The universe or whatever this assumption is not necessary. I guess I'm not really adding much to this debate specifically, but I wasn't sure where a post of this nature would belong.
I don't want you to get the idea that I don't think anything useful can come from the debates as they are, on the contrary I think there is great potential here, I merely hope to suggest a way of making the debates more useful to everyone involved, otherwise it is a debate without a common starting point. I hope to have fun and learn a lot in my time here, it seems like there are quite a few others here with the same attitude.

Actually, I think this is a great post. It keeps us from going around and around the same mountain every time.

[Solon]

I suppose I should add something meaningful to this thread since I'm posting on it. The fairness if punishment by God requires us to define 'fair'. Is what is fair what is temporally best for that individual or for society or for humanity as a whole? Is it something else entirely? Is fairness objective or subjective? I think there is a lot to be defined since fair can be a broad term meaning different things to different people. To some God, by definition, cannot be unfair which is begging the question in the case of this particular issue. We can cite examples of God punishing the wicked in scripture and say they deserved it and show more scripture supporting this. Scripture itself is something we cannot dismiss in this debate, it is the source for the actions being evaluated, but it cannot be the only source or seen as the end all argument either. The contention is whether what is described in them is fair, so citing them as stating it is so would be circular.

I must admit that I've managed to talk myself into a corner here. I'm not really certain of the best way to proceed from here. Perhaps a look at internal consistency in punishment and determination of wickedness? Then we are left arguing inerrancy of the Bible and literal versus figurative interpretation depending on the passage. Given that everyone on this board is human and thus bound by human limitations, we can at best apply the punishments meted out to human ethics and concepts of justice. This brings us back again to defining what is 'fair' or 'just'. I fear in my attempt to add something on topic I've managed to go nowhere and say nothing.

[Confused]

you misread my question. The debate of how can your loving god allow suffering is irrelevant to me. My question is: if he knew what we were going to do before we were born yet still allowed us to be born, then how can he punish us by sending us to hell for doing something he knew we would do. Is hs sadistic or just misquided.

[Confused]

Fired up writes: Instead of asking someone else to explain this to you. Why don't you try asking God?

Honestly, I have. I have been waiting 10 years for a response. I guess the genetic code I am wired with doens't allow for that communication.[/quote]