How would you react to Adam and Eve?

[OnceConvinced]

Adam and Steve... I mean Eve... were supposedly responsible for the fall of man. Due to their disobedience all of mankind was cast out of the Garden of Eden and suffering was piled upon them. Some even believe that sin corrupted the world and animals that were once herbivores became carnivores. Animals that were once harmless became venomous. Some believe that viruses and disease sprouted up as a result of sin entering creation.

Adam and Eve were the ones responsible for this, so surely everyone should be enraged at them? When you get to Heaven, surely, you will want to kick their asses for being so stupid and sentencing mankind to suffering on Earth?

Or do you see them as innocent beings in a dirty trick played by God? That God set them up to fail? Do you see God as the one responsible for all the suffering, so you don't blame Adam and Eve for what's happened?

Or perhaps you are even delighted that Adam and Eve did what they did, because you got to live a pretty cool life on a pretty cool planet. So you are grateful for their disobedience?

What do you think of Adam and Eve?

How would YOU react to Adam and Eve if you met them in Heaven?

[tam]

May you have peace!

Assuming for the sake of argument that the Garden of Eden scenario played out, then God is the one who made all the herbivores into carnivores. It's not like Adam and Eve sinned, then went around to all the animals and made them carnivores and the all powerful God is standing there helpless cringing and saying "Stop don't do that! Don't wreck my perfect creation!"
Seriously that's pretty much the only way it could have happened in that model. Either God changed all the animals and used Adam and Eve as an excuse, or you go for the "sin wrecked everything" but that means sin is at the very least equal in power to God.

Exactly. Which means that anyone who claims that sin is what sullied creation is kidding themselves. Sin cannot suddenly turn herbivores into carnivores, or harmless creatures into parasites or non-venomous creatures into venomous creatures. The only way this could happen that I can see is:

1) God turned them into these creatures as part of the curse
2) He created these things with flaws in them so that when sin entered everything became corrupted.

Number 1 shows malevolence. Number 2 shows malevolent design or at the very least incompetent design, ie God didn't realise that sin would corrupt everything and made no contingencies for such an eventuation.

What about death?

If death suddenly enters the world where death did not have any effect before... survival now becomes a priority and a fight, whereas before it was a given, and so there was no need of 'survival of the fittest'.

If someone (Adam) had been given the earth and everything in it, and Adam opened the door and/or sold that world to Death, then the animals given to Adam have been cursed by the actions of Adam, even the ground has been cursed on account of his actions as well.

Which IS what the account actually states: "Cursed is the ground because of you." And the rest of that verse: "through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life"... is simply a statement of truth, a prophecy even, rather than a punishment.


Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[OnceConvinced]

May you have peace!

Thanks. I do actually live a peaceful life already. Cruising along quite comfortably.

What about death?

If death suddenly enters the world where death did not have any effect before... survival now becomes a priority and a fight, whereas before it was a given, and so there was no need of 'survival of the fittest'.

Indeed. This is known as evolution. Animals adapt depending on their environment. Some may have gone from herbivores to carnivores potentially. Or vice versa. No God needed.

If someone (Adam) had been given the earth and everything in it, and Adam opened the door and/or sold that world to Death, then the animals given to Adam have been cursed by the actions of Adam, even the ground has been cursed on account of his actions as well.

So once again we come back to either malevolent or incompetent design. God had to have created flaws in his system for sin to cause death. Either these flaws were put there deliberately (malevolent design) or unwittingly (incompetent design) If a human being designed a computer system that had such major bugs in it, they'd quickly be out of a job.

Either way you look at it, it all comes down to what God willed. He is the one who makes the rules, he's the ones that determine the laws of nature. If he willed that death come as a result of sin, then that shows that malevolent design I am talking about.

Which IS what the account actually states: "Cursed is the ground because of you." And the rest of that verse: "through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life"... is simply a statement of truth, a prophecy even, rather than a punishment.

Ground doesn't just become magically cursed when someone sins. Not unless there are fatal flaws in the system, ie it was deliberately designed that way or incompetently designed that way.

So lets not call it a curse then, let's just call it what it is, either malevolence on God's part or incompetence. It can only be his fault that his creation became so corrupted.

[help3434]

[Replying to post 37 by ecco]

Not only did god set them up to fail, he knew they would fail and he knew it before he ever created them.

Knowing someone is going to fail does not mean you set them up to fail. But it can mean that you are able to make provisions beforehand, so that -despite your warnings and guidance to the person to avoid wrong choices that will bring them harm - the person cannot fail beyond recovery... and can instead LEARN from their failure, becoming stronger and wiser for it.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

God didn't just know they where going to fail, He created them to fail. God created the natures of Adam and Eve, right?

[ecco]

[Replying to post 37 by ecco]

Not only did god set them up to fail, he knew they would fail and he knew it before he ever created them.

Knowing someone is going to fail does not mean you set them up to fail. But it can mean that you are able to make provisions beforehand, so that -despite your warnings and guidance to the person to avoid wrong choices that will bring them harm - the person cannot fail beyond recovery... and can instead LEARN from their failure, becoming stronger and wiser for it.

tammy

Knowing someone is going to fail does not mean you set them up to fail.

Generally speaking, that may be true. In the case of The Creation, it is clear that god did set them up to fail.

• He knew beforehand that, when challenged, they would fail.
  He created them with a certain level of morality that ensured they would "eat the apple"

That is a setup.

[ttruscott]

...

God didn't just know they where going to fail, He created them to fail. God created the natures of Adam and Eve, right?

My understanding of GOD as loving and Holy cannot support this attitude. Every man fell by his own free will choice to go against GOD over something, that is, against GOD's will and not by HIS plan.

That HE put them into the situation in the garden so they WOULD fail to obey is a given but that is also proof to me that they must have already chosen to sin by their free will before they were breathed into their bodies.

That their failure to obey had the effect of opening their eyes to their sin, leading them to shame and repentance, proves to me that their failure in the garden was planned as a great blessing to them to bring them to their understanding that they needed Christ. It is curious that their experience had no effect on the sinfulness of the serpent who was cursed, that is, condemned already.

So I will thank them for this tough job of being the first to have their eyes opened to their sin. Every sinful elect on earth could have stood in their place with the same results but they had their nakedness exposed for the world to see and have been reviled (falsely) as the cause of every person's sins and sufferings from then on, even though that is not true.

[ecco]

...

Not only did god set them up to fail, he knew they would fail and he knew it before he ever created them.

This has some truth to this in the face of some orthodox Christianity but I contend that while it is true is was NOT TRUE from before their creation (which was not on earth) but only since their choice to reject by their free will the damnation of the eternally evil ones, those condemned already.

Of course HE set them up to fail...that is the purpose of giving a law to some sinners since their lack of obedience will open their eyes to the sins they are not ashamed of and they can repent in shame...exactly what happened.

So rather than being the evil act you imply, it was the best thing that ever happened to them in their long lives...they came to Christ (wore the skin coats of redemption by HIS shed blood).

Genesis 3 -
16 To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.�

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you...

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

6-6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.

6-11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways.
7-4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.�

Of course HE set them up to fail...that is the purpose of giving a law to some sinners since their lack of obedience...

God's failure to instill a reasonable level of morality into A&E ensured they would fail and he knew it beforehand when he created them.

So rather than being the evil act you imply...

I don't need to imply anything. I just need to quote holy scripture

• Painful birthing
  Subservience of women to men
  Hard labor
  Lousy crops
  Excruciating death by flooding, mudslides, etc.

it was the best thing that ever happened to them in their long lives...they came to Christ

The best thing indeed. After wiping out most of his creation he eventually revealed christ. Women still have painful birthing - even good subservient christian women.

[ttruscott]

??? double post ???

[ttruscott]

...Of course HE set them up to fail...that is the purpose of giving a law to some sinners since their lack of obedience...

God's failure to instill a reasonable level of morality into A&E ensured they would fail and he knew it beforehand when he created them.

I contend that they were NOT created in the garden but arrived there as sinners. I also contend that their creation before the creation of the physical world was as ingenuous innocents, with no moral proclivity at all neither good nor bad, so that they were totally free from any coercion of their created natures to go one way or the other but chose from a free will decision about what they believed to be the best way to get eternal happiness.

The nature of a free will denies the possibility of the instilled impulse of goodness that you argue for.

it was the best thing that ever happened to them in their long lives...they came to Christ

The best thing indeed. After wiping out most of his creation he eventually revealed christ. Women still have painful birthing - even good subservient christian women.

The effect so the fall were not due to the sins of A&E but to the creation of sin. Judgements upon sin are not their fault either but the fault of the sinners so judged though judgements entered into the earthly economy with Adam when he brought his sin into the world when he was breathed into his body.

I would also stand against the rendering you chose of Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children.
and would go instead with the interpretation that it means
Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children;

Since thy is not in thy sorrow and thy conception, but only accepted as implied, the Hebrew reads: I will greatly multiply sorrow and conception; It takes the inference of pain from labour and places it to the sorrow of the large number of conceptions and babies that needed to be born in general. This would be the effect if Eve were the first elect to sin against GOD's call to come out from among the reprobate so the judgement could be called (due to her friendship with the serpent) and as such she was responsible for the many who followed her and every one who followed any one of them into this rebellion,

thus increasing the conceptions of sinners on earth to her great sorrow over leading so many of the elect astray into such suffering.

[ecco]

...Of course HE set them up to fail...that is the purpose of giving a law to some sinners since their lack of obedience...

God's failure to instill a reasonable level of morality into A&E ensured they would fail and he knew it beforehand when he created them.

I contend that they were NOT created in the garden but arrived there as sinners.

On what do you base this contention? Please provide a biblical verse to support your opinion.

I also contend that their creation before the creation of the physical world was as ingenuous innocents, with no moral proclivity at all neither good nor bad, so that they were totally free from any coercion of their created natures to go one way or the other but chose from a free will decision about what they believed to be the best way to get eternal happiness.

We try to instill in our children, from an early age through adolescence and beyond, a sense of morality, a knowledge of right and wrong. God created A&E wholly formed, including their level of morality. A level of morality that he knew beforehand would ensure their disobedience.

The nature of a free will denies the possibility of the instilled impulse of goodness that you argue for.

If you do not believe your all powerful god is omniscient, then just say so.

it was the best thing that ever happened to them in their long lives...they came to Christ

The best thing indeed. After wiping out most of his creation he eventually revealed christ. Women still have painful birthing - even good subservient christian women.

The effect so the fall were not due to the sins of A&E but to the creation of sin.

Created how? By whom?

Judgements upon sin are not their fault either but the fault of the sinners so judged though judgements entered into the earthly economy with Adam when he brought his sin into the world when he was breathed into his body.

Huh? Please clarify.

I would also stand against the rendering you chose of Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children.
and would go instead with the interpretation that it means
Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children;

Translations upon translations and interpretations upon interpretations. You pick and choose which you prefer and which to disregard.

Moody Blues
Nights in White Satin
Cold hearted orb that rules the night
Removes the colours from our sight
Red is grey and yellow white
But we decide which is right
And which is an illusion

[tam]

[Replying to post 37 by ecco]

Not only did god set them up to fail, he knew they would fail and he knew it before he ever created them.

Knowing someone is going to fail does not mean you set them up to fail. But it can mean that you are able to make provisions beforehand, so that -despite your warnings and guidance to the person to avoid wrong choices that will bring them harm - the person cannot fail beyond recovery... and can instead LEARN from their failure, becoming stronger and wiser for it.

tammy

Knowing someone is going to fail does not mean you set them up to fail.

Generally speaking, that may be true. In the case of The Creation, it is clear that god did set them up to fail.

• He knew beforehand that, when challenged, they would fail.

Yes, hence He could already make provisions to help them when they chose wrong.

He created them with a certain level of morality that ensured they would "eat the apple"[/list]

He created them with the ability to choose for themselves.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy