Is your gods punishment fair?

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Confused
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Is your gods punishment fair?

Post #1

Post by Confused »

I am new to this site, so please bare with me if I seem a little of center. I will try to stick to the rules. After reading these threads for many years, I am just now getting the courage to start to ask questions of my own. feel free to correct me if I mess up.

Ok, lets for the sake of this thread say that the god of christianity is all knowing. Lets say the he knew what you were going to do before you were born, but loved you so much he still allowed your birth to occur. Let us even go far out into the left field and say that he knew what choices you would make in all decisions although he didn't force you to make them. I am not arguing free-will vs determinism. I am only wondering how it is that this god who knew what you would do, loved you so much he allowed your birth to do what you were going to do, and then punished you for doing what he knew you were going to do. If he already knew what would happen, and then allowed it to happen, how can he then turn around and sentence you to eternity in hell for what he knew you would do and allowed you to do?

Maybe I am missing some logical link here, but it seems to me that if this god knew the birth of an individual would result in the torture and death of even one person, isn't this god the actual guilty party for setting into motion an inevitable event? Is this the god that so many people would like for me to follow?

So does anyone know:
1) Does god love you so much that knowing what you would do and what you would become, he still allowed your birth so that you might know his love?

2) Is god some sadistic being who knows what you are going to do, allows you to be born, gets a cheap thrill watching you carry out some of the most sadistic crimes against humanity before sending you to the eternal fires of hell?

3) There is no god.

Personally, I have to say that there isn't enough available information to make an informed decision, but logic tells me its 3. If there is a god-fearing individual who can logically tell me otherwise, I would love to hear it.

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Re: Is your gods punishment fair?

Post #11

Post by Confused »

Metatron wrote:
FiredUp4jesus wrote:
Confused wrote: So does anyone know:
1) Does god love you so much that knowing what you would do and what you would become, he still allowed your birth so that you might know his love?

2) Is god some sadistic being who knows what you are going to do, allows you to be born, gets a cheap thrill watching you carry out some of the most sadistic crimes against humanity before sending you to the eternal fires of hell?

3) There is no god.

Personally, I have to say that there isn't enough available information to make an informed decision, but logic tells me its 3. If there is a god-fearing individual who can logically tell me otherwise, I would love to hear it.
1) Yes.
2) No.
3) This is not a question. However, it seems to me that what you are basically asking is the age old question why would a loving God allow for suffering and death to occur in the world. And if I'm only going to rot in hell for ever why would he let me be born at all. First, I'll admit that these are difficult questions that everyone struggles with throughout their lives. I would also like to challenge you with an excercise that you may or may not accept. Instead of asking someone else to explain this to you. Why don't you try asking God? I've suggested this to a number of atheists on this site. So far, no a single one has been brave enough to try it. Pray to God, read His word, and seek to know His nature. Once you get to know God, and learn more about Him. The answers are actually pretty simple.
I'm still trying to figure out how this is supposed to work if you do not believe God exists in the first place. So what do I do? Say the words of a prayer that has no meaning to me, stare into space, and wait for divine revelation to smack me upside the head? Even if God exists, it seems unlikely to me that he's going to be answering the prayers of someone who doesn't think prayer is meaningful.

I honestly can't say that there is or isn't a god. I can say that there isn't enough information available to make an informed decision. In my quest to find this information to make an informed decision I must reconcile certain issues. A major one for me is how can you punish someone for doing something that you knew they would do. If you put a candy bar on the table next to your 4 year old, then walked away knowing that that child would eat it, wouldn't it be your fault they ate it? How can you punish that child for doing what you knew, without doubt, that they would do?

Easyrider

Re: Is your gods punishment fair?

Post #12

Post by Easyrider »

Confused wrote:
I honestly can't say that there is or isn't a god. I can say that there isn't enough information available to make an informed decision. In my quest to find this information to make an informed decision I must reconcile certain issues. A major one for me is how can you punish someone for doing something that you knew they would do. If you put a candy bar on the table next to your 4 year old, then walked away knowing that that child would eat it, wouldn't it be your fault they ate it? How can you punish that child for doing what you knew, without doubt, that they would do?
The short answer is that the "child" can spend eternity in heaven due to the salvation that comes through Jesus Christ. Only if they wilfully refuse to receive Christ as their Savior are they subject to "punishment." And for those who have never heard a proper Gospel presentation of Christ, then God will judge them according to their consciences, which will testify either for or against them (Romans chapter 2).

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Post #13

Post by Cephus »

Solon wrote:As an example, for this topic since the debate is about the fairness of God's punishment for sin, a reasonable assumption is for God to exist, otherwise what are you debating? Who is doing the punishing? In a debate about the existence or nature of God/The universe or whatever this assumption is not necessary. I guess I'm not really adding much to this debate specifically, but I wasn't sure where a post of this nature would belong.
Welcome aboard, Solon.

And why is that a reasonable assumption? If you were going to debate about the reasonableness of Darth Vader's actions in Return of the Jedi, would you assume that Darth Vader was real, or would you treat him as a fictional character in a movie? It is not reasonable to assume unreasonable things.

Now certainly we can examine the fairness of the fictional character of "God" but to assume, without evidence, that said fictional character is real is just ridiculous.

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Post #14

Post by Solon »

Cephus,
I think you're missing the point of my post. The issue needs to be argued as if God were real since arguing the existence of God doesn't help answer or address the question, there are other topics already started for that purpose. Several posts had mentioned a problem with not believing in God when dealing with this issue, so at that point there's no one punishing anyone to argue about and no punishment happening. If you want to address the issue then you have to argue as if there is a God to punish humanity. I'm not telling you to start believing in God if you don't, but bringing up your non-belief adds nothing to the debate. If you want to say that you can't ask God because you don't believe he exists or that there is no God to provide punishment then why post on this topic? What is there to gain? If everyone cannot be willing to argue with the assumption that there is a God to punish mankind (use some suspension of disbelief if needed) then the debate is stillborn, it's side-stepping the issue entirely. If your position is that of Divine Command and objective morality comes from God then there cannot be anything but fair judgement since whatever God decides is just and fair, but that position needs to be supported. If you think that God's judgement needs to have consistency and adhere to principles of fairness that are comprehensible then support that position. If you have some other idea of fairness put that forth and support it.

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Re: Is your gods punishment fair?

Post #15

Post by Confused »

Easyrider wrote:
Confused wrote:
I honestly can't say that there is or isn't a god. I can say that there isn't enough information available to make an informed decision. In my quest to find this information to make an informed decision I must reconcile certain issues. A major one for me is how can you punish someone for doing something that you knew they would do. If you put a candy bar on the table next to your 4 year old, then walked away knowing that that child would eat it, wouldn't it be your fault they ate it? How can you punish that child for doing what you knew, without doubt, that they would do?
The short answer is that the "child" can spend eternity in heaven due to the salvation that comes through Jesus Christ. Only if they wilfully refuse to receive Christ as their Savior are they subject to "punishment." And for those who have never heard a proper Gospel presentation of Christ, then God will judge them according to their consciences, which will testify either for or against them (Romans chapter 2).
I am sorry, I can't even begin to understand what this means. How can I will fully refuse Christ if I don't know him? Who dictates what the proper gospel presentation of him is? Tell me, does your genetic code have something that mine is missing. You speak as if you know god is there and what you believe is right because you feel it in your heart. Tell me then, what about those who don't feel it despite searching for it? Am I to be punished because there is to much information out there to beoieve anything? Sorry, off topic. Once again, how can I be punished for fulfilling what god already knew I would do??????

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Post #16

Post by achilles12604 »

Cephus wrote:
Solon wrote:As an example, for this topic since the debate is about the fairness of God's punishment for sin, a reasonable assumption is for God to exist, otherwise what are you debating? Who is doing the punishing? In a debate about the existence or nature of God/The universe or whatever this assumption is not necessary. I guess I'm not really adding much to this debate specifically, but I wasn't sure where a post of this nature would belong.
Welcome aboard, Solon.

And why is that a reasonable assumption? If you were going to debate about the reasonableness of Darth Vader's actions in Return of the Jedi, would you assume that Darth Vader was real, or would you treat him as a fictional character in a movie? It is not reasonable to assume unreasonable things.

Now certainly we can examine the fairness of the fictional character of "God" but to assume, without evidence, that said fictional character is real is just ridiculous.
You are a little to hung up on "God does not exist." I say this because your evidence is your conclusion and your entire point here was that GOD DOES NOT EXIST PERIOD, which actually doesn't address what Solon was saying at all.

Simply put, he/she (which are you by the way?) is seeking the parameters of the original question so as to formulate an answer within these parameters.

Honestly, I think we should do this on more topics. It would save a lot of the arguments like "God doesn't exist because it doesn't make sense (to me)." or on the other side, "God does exist because the Bible says so."

Very good Solon. Very logical request indeed.
It is a first class human tragedy that people of the earth who claim to believe in the message of Jesus, whom they describe as the Prince of Peace, show little of that belief in actual practice.

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Post #17

Post by achilles12604 »

Solon wrote:Cephus,
I think you're missing the point of my post. The issue needs to be argued as if God were real since arguing the existence of God doesn't help answer or address the question, there are other topics already started for that purpose. Several posts had mentioned a problem with not believing in God when dealing with this issue, so at that point there's no one punishing anyone to argue about and no punishment happening. If you want to address the issue then you have to argue as if there is a God to punish humanity. I'm not telling you to start believing in God if you don't, but bringing up your non-belief adds nothing to the debate. If you want to say that you can't ask God because you don't believe he exists or that there is no God to provide punishment then why post on this topic? What is there to gain? If everyone cannot be willing to argue with the assumption that there is a God to punish mankind (use some suspension of disbelief if needed) then the debate is stillborn, it's side-stepping the issue entirely. If your position is that of Divine Command and objective morality comes from God then there cannot be anything but fair judgement since whatever God decides is just and fair, but that position needs to be supported. If you think that God's judgement needs to have consistency and adhere to principles of fairness that are comprehensible then support that position. If you have some other idea of fairness put that forth and support it.
Hooray for another logical person!!!
It is a first class human tragedy that people of the earth who claim to believe in the message of Jesus, whom they describe as the Prince of Peace, show little of that belief in actual practice.

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Post #18

Post by Cephus »

Solon wrote:I think you're missing the point of my post.
No, just heading off potential problems at the pass. :)
The issue needs to be argued as if God were real since arguing the existence of God doesn't help answer or address the question, there are other topics already started for that purpose.
Not really, we can easily argue the point as literary criticism since we're not talking about real-world events, just what is contained in the Bible. Unfortunately, I've run into the case many times before that theists will say "Let's assume that God is real" and down the road will try "Since we established that God is real earlier..." It just doesn't fly. God is a fictional character in an ancient book, nothing more. Anyone who wants to try God as part of reality needs to put up or give up.
If you think that God's judgement needs to have consistency and adhere to principles of fairness that are comprehensible then support that position. If you have some other idea of fairness put that forth and support it.
That certainly has been put forth already. You have a deity that is supposedly all-knowing and all-just, yet routinely makes judgements that are utterly ludicrous under those characteristics. He makes childish decisions, such as having the she-bears murder small children for laughing at his prophet's bald head. Is that a just, rational judgement for an omnibenevelent deity? I think not.

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Re: Is your gods punishment fair?

Post #19

Post by FiredUp4jesus »

Confused - Numbers by FiredUp wrote:
I am sorry, I can't even begin to understand what this means.

1) How can I will fully refuse Christ if I don't know him?
2) Who dictates what the proper gospel presentation of him is?
3) Tell me, does your genetic code have something that mine is missing. You speak as if you know god is there and what you believe is right because you feel it in your heart. Tell me then, what about those who don't feel it despite searching for it?
4) Am I to be punished because there is to much information out there to believe anything? Sorry, off topic.
5) Once again, how can I be punished for fulfilling what god already knew I would do??????

1) Simple, you keep Him as far away as you can. My favorite example is to picture Him at your front door ringing your doorbell over and over. You hear the bell ringing, but because you know who is at the door, refuse to answer it.
2) The Holy Spirit and the Word of God (Bible).
3) See my signature at the bottom. If you seek with all your heart, you will find.
4) I'll answer anyway. Test everything without prejudice. If you earnestly seek God and find nothing what have you lost?
5) Please! Every parent in the world does this and we call it loving. Anyone out there whose kids never lie? You know they are going to do it and still punish them for doing it. Same with back talk, making a mess out of their rooms, and a host of other bad decisions. You're talking about simple discipline here. Who DOESN"T do that??? I guess you're actually referring to the punishment that happens at the end of your life (if we've actually got that long) if you still reject God. Why would you want to spend eternity with God after rejecting Him all of your life? I am always so confused by this line of reasoning. People who flat out refuse to even explore the possibility of God think it is so unfair that they don't get to spend eternity with Him. Why is that?
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. Jer 29:13 NIV

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Post #20

Post by Solon »

The topic for this debate is whether God, with specific traits listed in the OP, is punishing fairly or not. This is a hypothetical that is being debated, so if God is not assumed to exist for the situation being argued there is no debate. If you wish to think of it as literary critique that's fine, but arguing that there is no God is off topic and not useful to this thread. I'm not asking you to concede that God exists for all purposes and threads from here on out, rather to do so in a topic where doing otherwise renders you incapable of taking a side. If we were to have atopic on the theoretical behavior of Tachyons given certain circumstances arguing about their existence is unhelpful. That is a separate topic. Perhaps you are refusing to admit God's existence in a hypothetical so it can't later be taken out of context by someone opposing you in a later argument, if that's the case you can just as easily provide the context from this thread. It seems that well over half the posts are off topic already, including all of mine. I won't argue this point with you further in this thread, but if you wish to PM me about it feel free, I don't want to start a debate separate from Confused's question in this thread.

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