Why no straight answers?

[Zzyzx]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs – including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None



Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

[earendil]

Okay. Present the complex answers. Readers may be interested. Excuses don't count.

I cannot type the entire content of the book into this forum...and every single word is required for one to understand the argument. I do not even begin discussing the historical Christ until the 15th chapter. That is how much remedial discussion is required to lay the proper foundations.

I will give a short overview outlining the steps in explanation.

1. Show how Scientific methodology can be used correctly in the investigation of paranormal claims.
2. From this it follows that you can show that the human soul exists.
3. From this it can be shown that God exists.
4. Lengthy discussion of the effects on human behavior caused by the presence of the soul.
5. How the concept of redemption resolves defective behavior caused by the presence of the soul.
6. How the historical Christ relates to redemption.
7. Discussion of other paranormal details.
8. Discussion of religion as it stands now.

While I have referenced my own work (which is normal in scientific papers when continuing from the published work). The book references many different works, and some very interesting research and some actual experiments that were done...all relevant to the argument.

(The book is: The Science Behind the Christ)

[H.sapiens]

Okay. Present the complex answers. Readers may be interested. Excuses don't count.

I cannot type the entire content of the book into this forum...and every single word is required for one to understand the argument. I do not even begin discussing the historical Christ until the 15th chapter. That is how much remedial discussion is required to lay the proper foundations.

The error there is that once the foolishness of item one is exposed there is no need to go through all that other chapters.

I will give a short overview outlining the steps in explanation.

1. Show how Scientific methodology can be used correctly in the investigation of paranormal claims. Read: A Field Guide to Critical Thinking
2. From this it follows that you [strike]can[/strike] can not show that the human soul exists.
3. From this it [strike]can[/strike] can not be shown that God exists.
4. Lengthy discussion of the effects on human behavior caused by the presence of the soul is now irrelevant.
5. How the concept of redemption resolves defective behavior caused by the presence of the soul is now irrelevant.
6. How the historical Christ relates to redemption is now irrelevant.
7. Discussion of other paranormal details is now seen for the claptrap that it is.
8. Discussion of religion as it stands now. Yup!

[Zzyzx]

.
[Replying to post 342 by H.sapiens]

Excellent post – outstanding reference. I have copied the article in my "User Notes" for ready reference (self and others) http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 347#748347

[earendil]

Okay. Present the complex answers. Readers may be interested. Excuses don't count.

I cannot type the entire content of the book into this forum...and every single word is required for one to understand the argument. I do not even begin discussing the historical Christ until the 15th chapter. That is how much remedial discussion is required to lay the proper foundations.

The error there is that once the foolishness of item one is exposed there is no need to go through all that other chapters.

I will give a short overview outlining the steps in explanation.

1. Show how Scientific methodology can be used correctly in the investigation of paranormal claims. Read: A Field Guide to Critical Thinking
2. From this it follows that you [strike]can[/strike] can not show that the human soul exists.
3. From this it [strike]can[/strike] can not be shown that God exists.
4. Lengthy discussion of the effects on human behavior caused by the presence of the soul is now irrelevant.
5. How the concept of redemption resolves defective behavior caused by the presence of the soul is now irrelevant.
6. How the historical Christ relates to redemption is now irrelevant.
7. Discussion of other paranormal details is now seen for the claptrap that it is.
8. Discussion of religion as it stands now. Yup!

You are right in that the first step is crictical. That is why I put it first.
But, scientific methodology can be used in the way described. The problem is that very few scientists seem to realize this. Part of the reason is that many have an almost religious attachment to the current paradigm and this prevents them from seeing this reality. I even discuss the psychological reasons for this irrational attachment.

Yes, I really do not expect much to come out of this publication because of this strange irrational behavior,.....but nobody can say I didn't try.

[Hamsaka]

[Replying to post 344 by earendil]

But, scientific methodology can be used in the way described. The problem is that very few scientists seem to realize this. Part of the reason is that many have an almost religious attachment to the current paradigm and this prevents them from seeing this reality. I even discuss the psychological reasons for this irrational attachment.

The paranormal has been studied with scientific methodology. Princeton has its own institute applying scientific inquiry to the paranormal.

The way I think it went is that scientists were unable to measure, verify or predict from the results because none of them produced positive results.

Do you not see how your own worldview is something to be extremely attached to, perhaps to the point what conflicts with it is dismissed or ignored?

As far as I know, this is inescapable if you are human . And to some degree, everyone does this, it seems to be how we are wired. This is never a one way street and no worldview is in itself immune, not even religious worldviews.

[Zzyzx]

.

You are right in that the first step is crictical. That is why I put it first.
But, scientific methodology can be used in the way described.

Specifically, item #1 states: "Show how Scientific methodology can be used correctly in the investigation of paranormal claims."

Has this been accomplished in this thread? If not, kindly lay out the evidence in support of the claim / statement.

The problem is that very few scientists seem to realize this.

How, exactly, has it been determined / documented what "few scientists seem to realize?"

Is this a personal opinion? Based on what valid, verifiable information?

Part of the reason is that many have an almost religious attachment to the current paradigm and this prevents them from seeing this reality.

The "current paradigm" in science is to study reality – the real world.

Study of imagination is the province of psychology and study of mythology is within the scope of literature – neither of which is science.

I even discuss the psychological reasons for this irrational attachment.

What you regard or discuss elsewhere as "irrational attachment" is of no significance in these debates.

Yes, I really do not expect much to come out of this publication because of this strange irrational behavior,.....but nobody can say I didn't try.

It might be prudent to consider that if "not much comes out of this publication" a primary reason may be that the publication is irrational or unconvincing – rather than blaming its observers or critics.

[earendil]

Yes, I really do not expect much to come out of this publication because of this strange irrational behavior,.....but nobody can say I didn't try.

It might be prudent to consider that if "not much comes out of this publication" a primary reason may be that the publication is irrational or unconvincing – rather than blaming its observers or critics.

Nobody has read it, so there are no critics ...except you and others that merely assume that they are correct (even though being completely unaware of the content)...and that really doesn't mean much.

[Zzyzx]

.

Yes, I really do not expect much to come out of this publication because of this strange irrational behavior,.....but nobody can say I didn't try.

It might be prudent to consider that if "not much comes out of this publication" a primary reason may be that the publication is irrational or unconvincing – rather than blaming its observers or critics.

Nobody has read it, so there are no critics ...except you and others that merely assume that they are correct (even though being completely unaware of the content)...and that really doesn't mean much.

Notice carefully that I take no position regarding the merits or lack thereof of said publication -- as indicated by the bold added above.

Notice also (as I trust readers do) that many other points in post #346, 345, 337, 333 have not been addressed.

[Jolly_Penguin]

I will give a short overview outlining the steps in explanation.

1. Show how Scientific methodology can be used correctly in the investigation of paranormal claims.
2. From this it follows that you can show that the human soul exists.
3. From this it can be shown that God exists.

No need to put it all in one post. How about just substantiating one of these steps? If I grant you that scientific methodology can be correctly used in the investigation of paranormal claims (which I find doubtful), how do you get from there to showing the human soul exists?Or if I grant you the human soul exists, how do you get form that to that God exists?

Can you give us even a surface level explanation of either of those steps, through science or logic, without resorting to religious texts and circular reasoning?

[Erexsaur]