God, justice, fairness and perfection

[Justin108]

For this debate, I need you to answer each of these questions in order.

1. Is God perfectly fair and just?

2. If God is not perfectly fair and just, does that mean God is by definition imperfect?

3. Does everyone have an equal chance in getting into heaven?

4. If everyone does not have an equal chance in getting into heaven, is God still perfectly fair and just?

[Youkilledkenny]

[Replying to post 20 by Justin108]

Your response is nothing but special pleading.

Please explain in context here

...yet claim that God somehow has a "special" morality that we cannot understand.

Where did you hear this? I've never heard 'we can't understand it' spoken by a Christian. Not saying it hasn't been just that I'm not familiar with it. That's an interesting concept to me.

Did God give us an inferior version of morality? Why would he do that?

I don't think God gave us anything to be honest

Why not implant in us an internal guide to know right from wrong in order for us to avoid wrongdoing?

Then there would be no need for Him if He did that! God appears very needy and, to be honest, appears to be a bully (especially in the Old Testament).

Do you have any way to demonstrate that God is not unfair as my OP suggests?

I think the Old Testament God is exceptionally unfair. The whole Mosses in Egypt storyline shows an unfair (and evil) God to me. But believers say I'm wrong and ignorant so...

Or do you just have special pleading as a defence?

I'm unsure why you think I'm defending antying

[JLB32168]

This isn't about what you do with the truth. That comes later.

You asked the question of how someone born into Christianity was responsible for truth and I answered it.

The fact is, being born into a Christian family automatically provides you with step 1 (receiving the truth) and is therefore an unfair advantage over those not born into a Christian family and never receive step 1.

It would be unfair if they were all held to the same standard of truth. They aren’t. They’re held to the standard that they received. A Hindu will not be judged like a Christian because “to whom much is given [the Christian] much is required.� Of course, part of being made in God’s Image and Likeness entails obedience to the Golden Rule, which is a common theme in all religions.

Mark 16:16 states that non-believers are damned. That is the "truth" that I am referring to. The Hindu in India will be damned through no fault of his own for not having this truth and not believing. Mark 16:16 makes no exceptions.

One can hang a dogma as important as salvation upon one verse I suppose. I’m not that person. The verse before it says they’re to preach the Gospel to every creature and he that believes will be saved and he that doesn’t believe won’t be. It doesn’t address the fact that the Apostles won’t get to everyone immediately so we can’t conclude that those who don’t have an opportunity to hear are damned. You cannot say, therefore, that Mark makes no exceptions because clearly the comment refers to those who hear and believe or reject – not those who haven’t ever heard.

So basically you get to argue whatever you want without the need to back it up?

I “back it up� with other evidence and won’t allow you to exclude evidence that doesn’t support your point, such as the teachings of the Ecumenical councils and the words of the Church Fathers.
That you regard evidence in Scripture as the only valid evidence is your affair. I’m not required to submit to your burden of proof is absolute.
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

You can claim that Mark 16:16 makes an exception for those born in India or Iraq just because your intuition assumes as much? If that's the case, then I'll be ending this discussion with you.

I’m cool with that. It gives me the last word and suggests that when you can’t support your point you’ll get mad and leave.

[Peds nurse]

For this debate, I need you to answer each of these questions in order.

1. Is God perfectly fair and just?

2. If God is not perfectly fair and just, does that mean God is by definition imperfect?

3. Does everyone have an equal chance in getting into heaven?

4. If everyone does not have an equal chance in getting into heaven, is God still perfectly fair and just?

God is very fair and just. I also think that we all have an equal chance to spend eternity with Him, although not everyone does.

If a person was adopted into a family, and had full rights to the inheritance, would other people who weren't in the family, have full rights as well? The only way to Heaven (Christian), is to be adopted as part of the family.

[ttruscott]

Does everyone have an equal chance at salvation? Does a born-into-Islam Iraqi or a born-into-Hindu Indian have the same chance at believing in Jesus, thereby receiving his salvation, than a born-into-Christianity American does?

They did when they were created, pre-earth.

Our earthly lives are a RESULT of our free will choices made pre-conception and only sinners who have rejected YHWH as their GOD or HIS plans for HIS creation by their free will are born as human, a process called sowing by Jesus.

Two levels of sin were chosen to send us to earth: a total rejection of YHWH as GOD resulting in an eternal sinfulness

Scripture and/or other support please?

Support for our pre-earth creation: people were there at the creation, Job 38:7 why not us, we return to sheol at death implying we came from there and we are sown, not created into this world by the Son of Man and the devil, Matt 13:38-39.

Support for our free will: it is a necessary concept to keep GOD at arm's length from the creation of evil, to ensure the true guilt of sinners and to be able to fulfill the heavenly marriage since without free will both love and marriage are denied.

Support for two levels of sin, one eternal and one temporary: GOD's love necessitates that if a person can be saved they will be saved from the consequences of choosing to be evil in HIS sight. Therefore if someone is not saved it must be because they cannot be saved implying that their choice to be evil cannot be corrected by grace.

[ttruscott]

...The Hindu in India will be damned through no fault of his own for not having this truth and not believing. Mark 16:16 makes no exceptions...

Why add the idea of "no fault of his own"? Mark 16:16 does not support this addition. It is merely a straw dog with no bite. In the face of the Christian doctrine about the loving nature of GOD this phrase fails miserably to reach the mark. All are born as sinners means that only self chosen sinners are born on earth though some are protected from condemnation by having accepted HIS promise of salvation.

[ttruscott]

Christians claim we get our morality from God, yet claim that God somehow has a "special" morality that we cannot understand.

No Christian I know claims this...quotes from Church doctrine please, or rescind...

Why not implant in us an internal guide to know right from wrong in order for us to avoid wrongdoing?

Here we go again dept:
to implant a morality in us would deny us free will which would destroy HIS chances of ever having a loving relationship with us or a true marriage. A free will must be able to decide on all the options of a choice or it is forced to chose one over the others and therefore is not free.

Avoiding wrongdoing was not HIS goal - a true marriage of like minded people loving each other was HIS goal which can only be achieved by our free will.

[bluethread]

So, are you saying that chance is a force? I thought chance was the absence of force. Isn't it supposed to be random?

Chance isn't always random. If I moved to North America, I would be far more likely to encounter a tornado than if I were to stay in South Africa. The action of moving to North America would not be random. That action is a force that influences chance.

Then is not a matter of chance. It is you choosing to put yourself in harms way. However, even if we set that to one side, are you saying that the weather is not the result of interacting forces?

Similarly, unless you believe that God somehow sprinkles us over the earth so we fall where we may, it would not be random. God's placement of our "souls" influence our eventual salvation (being born in India vs the USA). If God does simply sprinkle us randomly, then it is his lack of care for where we end up that then influences our eventual salvation. Either way, it is God's actions that lead to unfair advantages and disadvantages.

Well, that is not a matter of chance, but an egalitarian demand. Why must everyone recognize the demands of egalitarians? The original point I was addressing was why everyone does not have an equal chance. Why must things be equal, especially if we are talking about chance? Chance is by definition unequal. It is random.

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 20 by Justin108]

Your response is nothing but special pleading.

Please explain in context here

I'm not sure we can accurately attribute any human characteristic to such a being if it is, indeed, perfect. It always amusses me when people try to do such a thing or claim they can understand such things. It's not possible.

Initially, I read this as "God's morality and fairness is too perfect for us to understand" but a second look makes me think you mean to say that God is neither moral nor immoral but instead amoral. If this is the case, then I apologize for my misunderstanding

[Justin108]

This isn't about what you do with the truth. That comes later.

You asked the question of how someone born into Christianity was responsible for truth and I answered it.

I asked how are those born into Christianity responsible for receiving the truth, not how are they responsible for what they do with the truth. Your answer addresses what they do with the truth after receiving it.

The fact is, being born into a Christian family automatically provides you with step 1 (receiving the truth) and is therefore an unfair advantage over those not born into a Christian family and never receive step 1.

It would be unfair if they were all held to the same standard of truth. They aren’t. They’re held to the standard that they received. A Hindu will not be judged like a Christian because “to whom much is given [the Christian] much is required.� Of course, part of being made in God’s Image and Likeness entails obedience to the Golden Rule, which is a common theme in all religions.

Can you support this with scripture? Or is this more wishful thinking? Nothing in the Bible suggests that non-believers are given leeway in this regard.

Mark 16:16 states that non-believers are damned. That is the "truth" that I am referring to. The Hindu in India will be damned through no fault of his own for not having this truth and not believing. Mark 16:16 makes no exceptions.

One can hang a dogma as important as salvation upon one verse I suppose. I’m not that person. The verse before it says they’re to preach the Gospel to every creature and he that believes will be saved and he that doesn’t believe won’t be. It doesn’t address the fact that the Apostles won’t get to everyone immediately so we can’t conclude that those who don’t have an opportunity to hear are damned. You cannot say, therefore, that Mark makes no exceptions because clearly the comment refers to those who hear and believe or reject – not those who haven’t ever heard.

Revelation 21:8 "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.�

No exceptions made.


John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

No exceptions made.

So basically you get to argue whatever you want without the need to back it up?

I “back it up� with other evidence and won’t allow you to exclude evidence that doesn’t support your point, such as the teachings of the Ecumenical councils and the words of the Church Fathers.

Are you suggesting the Ecumenical councils and the Church Fathers received divine revelation somehow? Or is this just their interpretation of the text?

That you regard evidence in Scripture as the only valid evidence is your affair. I’m not required to submit to your burden of proof is absolute.

I don't consider scripture as the only valid evidence, but you have yet to provide any support for your position other than your opinion of what you expect God would or would not do.

I’m cool with that. It gives me the last word and suggests that when you can’t support your point you’ll get mad and leave.

What point have I not supported?

[Justin108]

God is very fair and just. I also think that we all have an equal chance to spend eternity with Him, although not everyone does.

If a person was adopted into a family, and had full rights to the inheritance, would other people who weren't in the family, have full rights as well? The only way to Heaven (Christian), is to be adopted as part of the family.

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned"

Keeping Mark 16:16 in mind, not everyone is as likely to be born and live in a Christian household or Christian community that preaches Christianity. Someone born and living in India is told that the Hindu gods are the true gods. Those in Iraq are taught to believe in Mohammad. These people have a clear disadvantage to receiving Jesus' salvation. They do not have a fair and equal chance.

What about the death of newborns? Either all newborns go to heaven due to their lack of sin, or they all go to hell due to their disbelief. If all newborns go to heaven, then they have an unfair advantage. If all newborns go to hell, then they have a disadvantage.