2 Thess 1 : 7-9 : and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed in heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power .
This verse mentions the final punishment as an everlasting destruction....
Jude 7 : In a similair way, Sodom and Gomorrah and teh surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire
This verse is similair
Rev 20 :14-15 : The death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. the lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
This verse however mentions the punishment as a "second death"
Perhaps the latter verse doesn't negate that the "second death" is eternal. But then how is death eternal? Does it mean a long eternal period in a process of dying? Or does it mean a person will for the rest of eternity be dead? Is hell eternal or not?
'Belief is never giving up.'- Random footy adverisement.
Sometimes even a wise man is wrong. Sometimes even a fool is right.
scorpia wrote: And he isn't exactly rooting that everybody go to hell.
Really? Then why does original sin still exist? Technically everyone going to hell is the default position in this system.
It's what the price of sin is, isn't it?
First point; I'm confused, what in particular did I do to deserve such punishment?
Secondly point; I've heard numerous times that this sin debt has been paid. If that's true why is there any fuss at all? Everyone should be going to heaven regardless of the type of life they live.
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air...we need believing people."
[Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933]
scorpia wrote:And some people believe capital punishment is too harsh as well.
How would anyone know what anyone deserves? God alone knows. And he isn't exactly rooting that everybody go to hell. It's what the price of sin is, isn't it? People can get out, but they turn their back on him. So what else is he supposed to do?
If I were a potter and made a vessel that did not please me, I would destroy that vessel. Vessels are not alive so we need another metaphor.
If I were a rancher and I had an untrainable horse. The horse has no value to me, it will not do my will. If I put that horse into a smoldering fire so that it remains conscious but in torment for the rest of its life, you would rightly call me sadistic. So what else am I supposed to do?
Is this is a difficult question? Is it really that hard to come up with alternatives to eternal torment? Come on!
For the benefit of any cognitively impaired deities, here is a partial list:
Annihilation - those beings who live out their lives without gaining redemption shall cease to exist.
Universal redemption - Love them anyway. Just as I am. Redeem your divine sacrifice even for those who have rejected it. Why not?
Reincarnation - give them another chance to get it right.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good. First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians The truth will make you free. Gospel of John
Punishment that is eternal is not 'corrective'. Finite sins commited by an imperfect being cannot be corrected by lighting someone on fire forever. It is not practical even by human standards. The 'sinner' never learns the intended lesson, and the Diety gains nothing but the sadistic joy of watching something he has lovingly made suffer indescribably for eternity. What does it accomplish? It is not corrective, therefore it is not just.
Also, a just and fair God would not administer a punishment that exceeds the scope of the offense. To be TRULY fair, one must let the punishment FIT the crime- it cannot be WORSE than the crime itself. That would be vindictive and would contradict the admonition for us to love our enemies, be merciful (just as our heavenly father is merciful) and to forgive.
Hell (Greek: 'Gehenna' for the Hebrew 'Valley of Hinnom') was and is a real geographical location. It is located outside the walls of Jerusalem and is quite lovely this time of year (I hear); but back in Jesus day it was a smoldering trash dump that had once been used for human sacrifices. Jesus references to the Valley of Hinnom would have been understood to be a disgusting heap of burning, rotting garbage to his original Jewish audience (hence the term, 'the worm does not wither and the fire is not quenched'), not a place where 'the Devil' tortures people as it has since become. Though Jesus frequently used hyperbolic imagery to illustrate his points (see most of his parables), it is reasonable to assume he would never have intended it to mean what the English word 'Hell' has come to mean filtered through two-thousand years of tradition.
A reference in Luke that is translated in some English versions as Hell actually translates the Greek word HADES:
Luk 16:22-24 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'
Hades, according to Encyclopedia Mythica is as follows;
'Hades is the lord of the dead and ruler of the nether world, which is referred to as the domain of Hades or, by transference, as Hades alone. He is the son of Cronus and Rhea. When the three sons of Cronus divided the world among each other, Hades was given the underworld, while his brothers Zeus and Poseidon took the upperworld and the sea respectively. For a while Hades ruled the underworld together with Persephone, whom he had abducted from the upperworld, but Zeus ordered him to release Persephone back into the care of her mother Demeter. However, before she left he gave her a pomegranate and when she ate of it, it bound her to the underworld forever.'
As you can see, Hades is a Pagan concept that was incorporated into Christian canon. Did Jesus really say this, no one knows for sure- but Luke says he did, so if one is to accept the Bible as absolute truth, by extention one must apparently also accept Greek Mythology as well. Hell and Hades are two completely different concepts and are thus represented in Greek, although English Bibles sometimes gloss this detail over.
So, in short, no. Hell is not eternal. It was referred to by Jesus as an extreme example of utter waste and rot- it has since become a place of 'eternal torment', mainly as a way to recruit frightened people into an exclusivist theology that insists on the salvation of only a few.
Nice Posts Everybody. I find them all interesting and worthy of merit and recognition. I think the views expressed must have been stated and debated in they're changing forms for centeries all the way to the present.
I understand Juliod's multiple mentions of “Everlasting Fire".
Just look how the Bible warns of the eternity and permance of hell!
He also says, see Matt 25. (I assume Matt. 25:31-46)
My preception of these ideas evolves with accruement of knowledge and entertainment of varying ideas over time. Sin - to me is making a mistake or missing the mark, like in old Anglo times when a arrow "sinned", it missed the mark. So basically when your doing something "wrong" instead of "right". But "wrong is basically "missing the mark".
Now when we do something wrong we "suffer" the consequences of that wrong doing. So Hell- to me is "suffering the consequences" of our "wrong" doing. It's really kind of a natural occurrence. It's not imposed on us by GOD but is a result of our "free will" choice.God doesn't make us choose wrongly, we do it on our own.Now some of us constantly and consistently choose to do the "wrong" thing. Maybe some of you can conceive of such a person. Maybe a hardened criminal, repetitive murderer, some person who shows no remorse and has no intention of ever changing. This might be a person who would "suffer" the consequences of their actions as long as they're alive. And if they lived eternally it might be referred to as an "Eternal Hell".
Joe Blackbird – reminds me of Hades and other old concepts of God & Hell.
It has become apparent to me that many argument are based on old concepts of God, Hell or other Concepts that have been evolving over time. Some where along the line I became aware of the concept thatGOD reveals God's self to human kind in a form that they can comprehend at that stage of their human development. So if GOD needs to be seen as a Burning Bush, or if GOD needs to be seen as the creator of an infinitely complex universe with multitudes of galaxies with all the complexities of Space, extremely small particles like quarks, varieties of energy sources, a DNA strand that contains 1 x 10 to the 605th power possibilities of a human individual in less than 5% of it's genetic code, than God will be seen in the most complete way we are able to see GOD.
And Hell evolves from "Hades" to us "suffering" consequences from our own mistakes.
Nyril says our Sin debt has been paid. I don't have a good answer for that except, if we think of living backward and missing the mark of living a good life as "Sin Debt" Then the teachings of Jesus of how to live right even unto showing Mercy (by not judging us) as we killed him in our backward ways so that future generation would understand how to live right, you might say the living of His life as an example to us was our "Ransom" from our "Sin Debt".
Which brings us to DrProctopus who rightly says" I think Christians need to put more consideration towards the idea of mercy and kindness. So true! We all can put more consideration towards the ideas of mercy and kindness.
I like McCulloch- ideas best.
For the benefit of any cognitively impaired deities, here is a partial list:
1. Annihilation - those beings who live out their lives without gaining redemption shall cease to exist.
2. Universal redemption - Love them anyway. Just as I am. Redeem your divine sacrifice even for those who have rejected it. Why not?
3. Reincarnation - give them another chance to get it right.
So Scropia- eternal suffering is of our own choosing IMHO. God be with you and may the Holy Spirit continue to guide you in the Paths of GOD.
scorpia wrote:And some people believe capital punishment is too harsh as well.
How would anyone know what anyone deserves? God alone knows. And he isn't exactly rooting that everybody go to hell. It's what the price of sin is, isn't it? People can get out, but they turn their back on him. So what else is he supposed to do?
If I were a potter and made a vessel that did not please me, I would destroy that vessel. Vessels are not alive so we need another metaphor.
If I were a rancher and I had an untrainable horse. The horse has no value to me, it will not do my will. If I put that horse into a smoldering fire so that it remains conscious but in torment for the rest of its life, you would rightly call me sadistic. So what else am I supposed to do?
Is this is a difficult question? Is it really that hard to come up with alternatives to eternal torment? Come on!
For the benefit of any cognitively impaired deities, here is a partial list:
Annihilation - those beings who live out their lives without gaining redemption shall cease to exist.
Universal redemption - Love them anyway. Just as I am. Redeem your divine sacrifice even for those who have rejected it. Why not?
Reincarnation - give them another chance to get it right.
The Judeo-Christian SO CALLED god is A demonic creation of mans imagination. The true Christian God of Israel, the God of scripture he is not like the bill of goods sold through the pulpits of today.
Hell exists..... but there is NO
eternal scream and fry, cry and sizzle roast and toast, burn and turn
exists in fairyland, it is not a reality nor supported by Scripture.
Hell is not a place of torment. Man does not have an immortal spirit that lives on after death. He is UNCONSCIOUS in death. Not sent to a place forever to be tortured.
The idea that hell is an ever-flaming place of torment results partially from a misunderstanding of Revelation 14:9-10: "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark ... he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."
This scripture does not say that these people are being tormented in hell. It states that the smoke of their torment ascends forever (verse 11). As smoke rises it blends with the surrounding air, becoming further and further diluted. David wrote in Psalm 37:20 that "the wicked shall perish [not be tortured forever in hell] ... Into smoke they shall vanish away."
Another thing to note is that the Hebrew word for hell is "sheol." But according to these scriptures it doesn't mention that it is a place of torment.
Ecclesiates 9:5,10 says: For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all... All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol, the place to which you are going.
Psalms 146:4: His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;
In that day his thoughts do perish.
Ezek: 18:4: The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.
Good people go to hell according to this scriptures which proves that it is not a place of torment for the wicked:
Job 14:13: O that in She´ol you would conceal me,That you would keep me secret until your anger turns back,
That you would set a time limit for me and remember me! (God himself said that Job was "a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside what is bad."-Job 1:.
Also Acts 2:25-27 mentions that Jesus was in hell: ‘I had God constantly before my eyes; because he is at my right hand that I may never be shaken. On this account my heart became cheerful and my tongue rejoiced greatly. Moreover, even my flesh will reside in hope; because you will not leave my soul in Ha´des(hell), neither will you allow your loyal one to see corruption. (The fact that God did not "leave" Jesus in hell implifies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades for a time.)
Does anyone get out of the Bible hell?
Rev, 20:13,14: And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha´des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and Ha´des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire." (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.)
After one dies, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins?
Romans 6:7: "He who has died has been aquitted from his sin."
Jeremiah 7:31: "And they have built the high places of To´pheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hin´nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart." (If it never came into God's heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.)
Deuteronomy 18:10, 2 Kings 16:3, 17:16-17, 21:6, 23:10 shows accounts of when the people in the land of Cannan would pass their sons and daughters under the fire, which was one reason why God told the Israelites to destroy them!
The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt.
In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the "neither world...is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness." Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendome's hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century B.C.E, in time came to feature both hot and cold hells.( The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in Italy have been traced to Etrucen roots.-La civilta etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389. So ancient Egyptian religious texts portrayed the "Other World" as featuring "pits of fire" for "the damned."- The religion of Babylonia and Assyria, By Morris Jastrow, Jr., 1898,p.581; The Book of the Dead. pp. 135, 144, 149, 151, 153, 200.
Also one more thing, about Revelations, you have to remember that that book is filled with symbolism, the Devil is symbolized as a wild beast for example. What is interesting is that to people who believe in hell, it is the lake of fire right?
Revelation at 20: 10,14,15. These say: "Then the Devil, who betrayed them, was thrown into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."....."And death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death -- the lake of fire"....."And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire."
But here it says that death and Hades(hell) will be hurled into the Lake of Fire So how can hell be hurled into hell? This proves the sheol/hades is not a place of torment, it actually simple means the grave, or unconscious death. This lake of fire symbolizes permanent destruction. So death (sheol) will be destroyed finally. To be destroyed means to cease to exist.
Ok so what about this part? Revelation 14:11 which says "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
We see that it is the smoke of the "torment" that lasts forever, not the "torment" itself.
This is the smoke of the symbolic torment. (As I mentioned in the way begginning) According to the interlinear bible, it says that their situation is an unceasing ordeal, and death is indeed an unceasing ordeal. And upon looking at the interlinear bible, it is interesting to note that it does not use the word "torment" in the original Greek rendering of this verse . As for not resting for day or night, obviously these ones are not getting a break from death at this point.
I think Christians need to put more consideration towards the idea of mercy and kindness.
That is truly the case now. We are told that God IS LOVE, not merely capable of IT. In other words everything He does including His judgment must be done IN LOVE. The christian theology would have all believe that Gods love ends once judgment begins but this is not so and is truly an impossability.
The fact that the Bible speaks so vehemently about eternal burning should tell you something...
You are faced with at least two interpretations at this point:
1) God is a psychotic bastard who subjects people to eternal torture
2) The Bible is not the word of God.
There is another choice which I believe...The bible cannot contradict itself and if one would truly rightly divide the word of truth they would see the truth but we have been given some faulty translations which have created false doctrines in theology. The words "aion" and "aionios" have been deceptively translated as "eternal" and "everlasting". Lets just look at the range of definitions given for these words in Strongs exhaustive concordance;
Strong's Greek Dictionary defines "aion" as follows: "an age, perpetuity, the world, a Messianic period, course, eternal, forever, evermore, without end."
Strong's defines the adjective aionios as follows: "perpetual, eternal, forever, everlasting."
Are these definitions good scholarship or religious bias? Imagine defining the word "white" like this: "white, WHITE LIGHT, bright, maximum lightness, brilliant, blanch, off-white, shaded, light gray, dark gray, between light and dark, dark gray, dark, COAL BLACK." Does anyone see a problem with my definition of "white?" Does anyone see a problem with Strong's definition of "aion/aionios?"
I find it much easier to believe that the Bible is not the word of God, than to believe that God is a monster.
Upon further study of the history of our translations and the time periods in which they were translated not to mention who was behind the command to translate them you will find that even though there are some mistranslations you can still find the truth by comparing scripture with scripture and always defining words by their usage. By simply throwing it away and not trusting in it you will lose out on finding that which you seek for. The word "aion" should have simply been translated into english as "eon" or "eons", while "aionios" is the adjective of the noun "aion" should have been translated into the english word "eonion". "aion/s" is simply defined as "age/s". "Aionion" being an adjective is defined as "pertianing to the ages" or "of the ages". There is no one word in any ancient Hebrew or Greek which implies any word meaning timelessness. The punishment is for a period of time as is the reward of ruling and reigning with Christ. The punished remain in aionios death while the rewarded recieve aionios life. The word aionios also carries with it a connotive meaning which is refering to the kingdom age. It is not limited to merely a quantity of time but also a special quality of time whether aionios death or aionios life but both are for a set time. Once the kingdom is coming to an end those who are punished are also purified and join the rest together and God becomes all in all.
Perhaps Christians would benefit by placing their faith in God, rather than in the writings of ancient people.
The writings are the word of God but they also have some inconsistancies which need to be found and taken into account. We need both but ultimately it is by the spirit that all understanding is given.
God Bless, Dave
scorpia wrote:And some people believe capital punishment is too harsh as well.
How would anyone know what anyone deserves? God alone knows. And he isn't exactly rooting that everybody go to hell. It's what the price of sin is, isn't it? People can get out, but they turn their back on him. So what else is he supposed to do?
If I were a potter and made a vessel that did not please me, I would destroy that vessel. Vessels are not alive so we need another metaphor.
If I were a rancher and I had an untrainable horse. The horse has no value to me, it will not do my will. If I put that horse into a smoldering fire so that it remains conscious but in torment for the rest of its life, you would rightly call me sadistic. So what else am I supposed to do?
Is this is a difficult question? Is it really that hard to come up with alternatives to eternal torment? Come on!
For the benefit of any cognitively impaired deities, here is a partial list:
Annihilation - those beings who live out their lives without gaining redemption shall cease to exist.
Universal redemption - Love them anyway. Just as I am. Redeem your divine sacrifice even for those who have rejected it. Why not?
Reincarnation - give them another chance to get it right.
Your argument against an eternal hell assumes that it is God who sends people to hell, which is not the case. Mankind has chosen rebellion. God provided perfection and paradise for man, but He also provided the potential for evil (although He did not CREATE evil itself). We can get into why He did that at another time.
Mankind has chosen (as a collective group and as individuals) to turn away from God. This was the essence of the first sin, and it is the backdrop of all sin to this day. Man wishes to set himself up as God. Sin makes man impure, and impurity cannot coexist with a pure and holy God. Therefore, sin causes a seperation from God, which cannot be reversed by any measure of good works.
Now... man was created as an eternal being (in the image of God) and with free will. Since man has chosen to live seperate from God, He allows him to do so. But because of His great love for us, he devised a redemptive plan to draw mankind back to Himself. This he did through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
So, it is man's choice to spend eternity seperated from God.
Annihilation- This would not be fair. Why would God cause me to cease to exist just because I did not want to exist with Him?
Redeem them anyway- This would be bad for several reasons. First, God would have to force people to love him, which defeats the purpose of mankind's existence. It would also force people to spend eternity in His presence, when they, through life, chose rebellion. Thirdly, it would fill heaven with those who didn't want to be there, and that would ruin it for everyone else.
Reincarnation- What if I offered a gift to you at Christmas, and you chose to send it back to the store. Would I offer you the same gift year after year until you finally accepted it? The logic here does not make sense. It makes a guessing game out of life.
I hope this helps you in your journey. The God of the universe loves you more than you will ever know or understand. It is an unmerited and everlasting love, and I pray that somehow, some way you might come to know the truth. Keep digging. The Truth will set you free.
God provided perfection and paradise for man, but He also provided the potential for evil (although He did not CREATE evil itself).
Is it possible you're explanation would be similar to this?
He said: "How can God, if he is infinitely good, permit us to suffer the sorrows of evil; after all, who creates evil?" It was still believed by many in those days that God creates both good and evil, but Jesus never taught such error. In answering this question, Jesus said: "My brother, God is love; therefore he must be good, and his goodness is so great and real that it cannot contain the small and unreal things of evil. God is so positively good that there is absolutely no place in him for negative evil. Evil is the immature choosing and the unthinking misstep of those who are resistant to goodness, rejectful of beauty, and disloyal to truth. Evil is only the misadaptation of immaturity or the disruptive and distorting influence of ignorance. Evil is the inevitable darkness which follows upon the heels of the unwise rejection of light. Evil is that which is dark and untrue, and which, when consciously embraced and willfully endorsed, becomes sin.
"Your Father in heaven, by endowing you with the power to choose between truth and error, created the potential negative of the positive way of light and life; but such errors of evil are really nonexistent until such a time as an intelligent creature wills their existence by mischoosing the way of life. And then are such evils later exalted into sin by the knowing and deliberate choice of such a willful and rebellious creature. This is why our Father in heaven permits the good and the evil to go along together until the end of life, just as nature allows the wheat and the tares to grow side by side until the harvest."
This sounds to me like it might follow your thinking, which by the way I believe is correct, and not grasped by most believers. BUT I believe it is an understanding that is dawning on our understanding and some day will be grasped and shared as the common understanding of "Sin and Hell".
People will take MORE responsibility for the error of their choosing (Sin) instead of trying to make out GOD as this vengeful torturer.
Thanks Youth_Pastor! You are a breath of fresh air in a room of stagnant ideas that have been argued ad nauseam.
And then some day this idea as you have presented it will be ready to be seen in the new perspective of our better future understanding provided we don't take another huge backward step like we did into the Dark Ages.
Redeem them anyway- This would be bad for several reasons. First, God would have to force people to love him, which defeats the purpose of mankind's existence. It would also force people to spend eternity in His presence, when they, through life, chose rebellion. Thirdly, it would fill heaven with those who didn't want to be there, and that would ruin it for everyone else.
First, I don't think it's logically necessary that God "force" anyone to love Him. Might it not be that once that which causes contention between God and man is removed, man would naturally desire communion with God in somewhat the same way any honest, thinking human eventually will admit that commodities like justice and mercy are goods to which all humans are entitled?
The last two reasons given above assume that people would enter heaven in the same rebellious state they existed in in spatiotemporal existence. But if that stain that causes contention is removed, there would be perfect unity and harmony. This may be the sense in which Paul's statement that "...God may be all in all" (1Cor 15:28).
God be with you and may the Holy Spirit continue to guide you in the Paths of GOD. 
