How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?

[Yahu]

Lucifer is only referenced once in scripture. It isn't even a name in the original hebrew. Lucifer is Latin from the Latin translation into our modern canon.

The actual passage calls him 'Heylel ben Shachar' which is translated 'Lucifer, son of the morning'. How can he be a fallen angel if he is not 'ben Elohyim' but 'ben Shachar'? I guess people don't know that Shachar was a Canaanite deity that was himself an 'ben El' according to the Canaanites.

Now Heylel (Lucifer) isn't even a name. It is a descriptive title. It means 'light bringer' or 'shining one' and is a common epitaph for a sungod. For example the same thing in Greek is Pheobus, ie 'bright'. Pheobus is a title of Apollo and Apollo means 'the destroyer' in Greek.

Now since Lucifer is from the Latin translation, it is interesting to note that the goddess Diana was Diana Luciferah as well in the Latin, ie the feminine form of Lucifer who was the twin sister of Apollo.

Most christian doctrine assumes that the serpent in the garden was Lucifer yet no where in scripture is this even speculated. Satan doesn't even appear in scripture until the time of Job, well after the flood.

Now if we assume that Shachar actually was an angel that had children then Lucifer at most is the son of a fallen angel who would have been born on earth, lived then died. How can he be anything more then just a ghost?

The passage of Isa 14 talks of Lucifer as a shameful ruler that destroys, then dies, is eaten by worms, descends into sheol where kings in sheol say 'Is this the MAN?'

So how is Lucifer a man?

[JehovahsWitness]

Sheol just meaning the grave is total ridiculous nonsense.

That is your opinion and you are quite welcome to it. However the purpose of my post was to address your claim that the idea is UNIQUE to Jehovah's Witnesses which as I demonstrated it most certainly is NOT.

nobody but JW accept that [...] Sheol is just the grave.

My references clearly show that what you claimed is in fact untrue. (see my post #19)

============================================

don't even bother bring up that nonsense again in this thread.

As long as I respect forum rules I will bring up whatever I want, whenever I want, whereever I want, as many times as I want. Should a moderator feel that my posts are inappropriate or irrelevant, I feel confident one will present me with some kind of sanction. As it is, I was making a direct reply to an explicit claim and as such consider my post entirely appropriate. You are free of course, to ignore any posts I make should their content displease you or fail to be of interest.


Respect,

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 21 by JehovahsWitness]
If you want to discuss those topics, start your own thread of those topics. The topic of this tread is the who and what Lucifer is and how other possibilities other then Augustinian doctrine is possible with scriptural support.

I have no desire for the thread to be derailed on nonsense side topics that at least on this forum I have only seen JW spout. It is not a commonly held doctrine among other denominations. But the understanding that spirit, evil spirits exist is a prerequisite to understanding the spiritual realms with Lucifer/Satan as the ruler of that realm. Who still rules over spirits of the evil dead. If it weren't for his control over spirits of the dead, ie evil spirits, he would have NO POWER at all in this world.

Your denial of the existence of spirits of the dead is beyond the scope of this thread and I have already shown scriptural support of it.

My own specialty is in battling witchcraft and an indepth study of the ancient paganism that was in conflict with Yah throughout the bible which is the source of that witchcraft. Much of that paganism is involved with ancestral spirit worship. For example, one of Job's friends tells him to summon ancestral spirit guides. But of course it can only be deep rooted deception with the JW cult that would hinder that understanding by putting in a foundational false doctrine to keep you all blinded.

[JehovahsWitness]

I have no desire for the thread to be derailed on nonsense side topics.

Excellent, then may I respectfully suggest you stop introducing them!. If a point it totally irrelevant to the debate on hand, then its best not to make it, but if you do, be prepared to be challenged, that is how debating goes. As it stands, it was you and not I that introduced this side point by making a very clear but totally inaccurate statement and I simply challenged it with factual information and references.

Again, should I post anything you do not want to address, feel free to simply ignore it and move along.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 19 by JehovahsWitness]

Sheol is NOT THE GRAVE, the shallow pit in the ground, as a cursory study shows; there is too much evidence to put it all here so I'll post one url of so many that will provide what you clack:

http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/artic ... 69770.html

Hades is the New Testament equivalent of the Old Testament word Sheol. The Greek and Hebrew words speak of the same place, the present Hell. However, this is problematic because Sheol has been translated "grave" as often as it has "hell" and some have mistakenly taught that Sheol and Hades are only references to the grave rather than Hell*. This erroneous teaching leads to the denial of the existence of an immediate or present Hell. The false doctrine of soul-sleep, and other ideas that teach the unconscious state of the dead between death and resurrection, spring from this error.

*[Aside: Hell itself can be used for the waiting room of the dead like both Sheol and Hades and is not restricted to the final place of banishment of the evil dead...hell (n.) also Hell, Old English hel, helle, "nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions, place of torment for the wicked after death," from http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=hell...]

The common word for "grave" in the Old Testament is QUEBER. Of the sixty-four times it is used, it is translated "grave" thirty-four times, "sepulcher" twenty-six times, and "burying place" four times. Queber is used five additional times as part of a place name, Kibroth-hattaavah, which means "graves of lust." As we said earlier, Sheol is found sixty-four times, being rendered "grave" thirty-one times, "hell" thirty-one times, and "pit" three times.

A comparison of how Sheol and queber are used reveals eight points of contrast that tell us that they are not the same thing.

1. Sheol is never used in plural form. Queber is used in the plural 29 times.

2. It is never said that the body goes to Sheol. Queber speaks of the body going there 37 times.

3. Sheol is never said to be located on the face of the earth. Queber is mentioned 32 times as being located on the earth.

4. An individual's Sheol is never mentioned. An individual's queber is mentioned 5 times.

5. Man is never said to put anyone into Sheol. Individuals are put into a queber by man (33 times).

6. Man is never said to have dug or fashioned a Sheol. Man is said to have dug, or fashioned, a queber (6 times).

7. Man is never said to have touched Sheol. Man touches, or can touch, a queber (5 times).

8. It is never said that man is able to possess a Sheol. Man is spoken of as being able to possess a queber (7 times). (These eight points of comparison are adapted from "Life and Death" by Caleb J. Baker, Bible Institute Colportage Ass'n, 1941).

From the differences between how Sheol and queber are used in Scripture, it is obvious that they are not the same thing. The Greek word Hades in the New Testament would fit into the Sheol column of our chart, strongly indicating that it is the same thing as Sheol. Hades is used eleven times, being rendered Hell ten times and grave once.

ibid:
While we have not exhausted the subject by looking at every passage that Sheol is found in, it is clear from these examples that Sheol is not simply the grave but is located at the center of the earth and is the abode of the souls of the unrighteous dead who are awaiting their resurrection unto condemnation. It is equally clear that those in Sheol/Hades are not in an unconscious state of existence but are quite aware of what is going on around them. There is memory, recognition, and communication there.

PARADISE
While Paradise is not now a part of Sheol/Hades it will be mentioned here because it was located in Sheol/Hades at one time. Before the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ everybody who died went to Sheol/Hades, which was at that time divided into at least two compartments. One was a place of torment while the other was a place of blessing, which was referred to as Abraham's Bosom (Lk. 16:22-25).

Christ's soul was in Sheol/Hades between His death and resurrection. The place where Christ's soul went between His death and resurrection is also called paradise (Luke 23:43).

[Zzyzx]

.

Soul sleep and Sheol just meaning the grave is total ridiculous nonsense that is contradicted all over scripture so don't even bother bring up that nonsense again in this thread.

Moderator Warning

Everyone is entitled to whatever position they choose. No one is entitled to tell others where to post or not post.

Avoid characterizing anyone's position as "ridiculous nonsense".





Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[Clownboat]

I have no desire for the thread to be derailed on nonsense side topics.

Excellent, then may I respectfully suggest you stop introducing them!. If a point it totally irrelevant to the debate on hand, then its best not to make it, but if you do, be prepared to be challenged, that is how debating goes. As it stands, it was you and not I that introduced this side point by making a very clear but totally inaccurate statement and I simply challenged it with factual information and references.

Again, should I post anything you do not want to address, feel free to simply ignore it and move along.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

I'm curious, since you didn't attempt to combat his evidence about Sheol, have you changed your stance? Is his argument not sound? If it's not, I would be curious to know why you think so.

[ttruscott]

"Sheol was for a very long time only a magnified grave, into which all the dead, bad and good alike, prince and peasant, went." - Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

Actually this quote is from: An Old Testament Commentary for English Readers:
by Charles John Ellicott; Cassell, Petter, Galpin & Company, 1884 NOT Matthew Henry.
First this:

The word translated grave, in exact parallelism with death is sheol or underworld in the early conception merely a vast sepulchral cave, closed as rock-bombs usually were by gates of stone or Iron. The derivation of the word is disputed but the primary meaning appears to have been hollowness.

...then further in the paragraph comes the sentence you have quoted:

"Sheol was for a very long time only a magnified grave, into which all the dead, bad and good alike, prince and peasant, went.�

[wrongly attributed to Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary] which obviously refers to one huge cavern so this grave called sheol cannot be referring to the small, filled in, one person graves for the body.

This paragraph defeats your interpretation...

[ttruscott]

“In a sense, ‘the grave’ in a generic sense is a near equivalent, except that Sheol is more a mass grave in which all the dead dwell together. . . .�—A Translators Handbook on the Book of Jonah, 1978 Brynmor F. Price and Eugene A. Nida p. 37

...a mass grave in which all the dead dwell together is not the kind of grave that you folks are claiming since you claim sheol and hades represent each individual small, filled in grave of individual people.

This sentence also defeats your interpretation.

[ttruscott]

ECCLESIASTES 9:10
http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/9-10.htm

English Standard Version
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

GOD had this and almost all of ECCLESIASTES written as a "truth from the pov of the worldly minded unspiritual person, which is contrary to the truth of HIS reality. It is the truth of what the world thinks, not GOD, and I guess you folk are caught up in that.

[Yahu]

I'm curious, since you didn't attempt to combat his evidence about Sheol, have you changed your stance? Is his argument not sound? If it's not, I would be curious to know why you think so.

Are you kidding? That would be against the Watchtower teachings. JW can't do that! If any of them were allowed to think for themselves, instead of just reposting Watchtower doctrine ....