YAHWEH creates evil, then drowns creation for it!

[21stCenturyIconoclast]

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"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and I create evil, I the LORD do all these things." ( Isaiah 45:7)

"Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6)

The reason that the Hebrew Christian Yahweh god, of which is one of many gods in the Before Common Era, decides to drown the entire world accept Noah and family, is because his creation are evil and unworthy of existence (Genesis 6:5). The irony is that Yahweh created evil in the first place as shown above in the passages in question. Yahweh is also omniscient (1 John 3:20) , therefore he knew his creation would falter and he would have to kill them, therefore Christians and Jews worship a god that is Schizophrenic!

"Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them." (Genesis 6:5-7)

Christians, can an innocent zygote or fetus ever be evil enough where they need to be destroyed within their mothers womb in the Great Flood, as your Yahweh caused abortions in this instance? Can an innocent baby really be evil where they need to die a horrible death by hopelessly treading water in Yahwehs flood for hours as they cry out in horror to their mothers; as their muscles burned due to large amounts of lactic acid production. Where once they finally give up, they went under, and held their breaths, where acidic carbon dioxide eroded their lungs until the unbearable pain forced them to inhale where there was no air for them to breathe. All the while, the ever loving and forgiving Yahweh god is watching.

Then the water brought into their little lungs robbed their little bodies of oxygen, causing them to go numb. As water violently rushed in and out of their little chests, it finally laid their heavily breathing and slowly dying bodies to the bottom of the ocean as the inhaled water caused their lungs to tear and bleed profusely. All the while, the ever loving and forgiving Yahweh god is watching.

As their blood supply dwindled, their innocent hearts slowly came to a halt. Even so, their brains continued to process information for another couple of minutes. They were patently aware that death was imminent, yet they could do nothing to prevent it. We can only imagine that their final thoughts would have been on what they did to deserve such horrific treatment and death. All the while, the ever loving and forgiving Yahweh god is watching.


When Christians understand why you dismiss all the other gods in the Before Common Era, then you will understand why I dismiss yours.

[marco]

[[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.


Consider a child, who's parents have forbidden him to play in the busy street. To the child this is bad (Hebrew ra). But the parents know that for the child to disobey is bad, and could lead to calamity. If the child does disobey it could lead to two possible bad results. He could get hurt, even killed by traffic, or he could get caught and punished.

If your analogy has any meaning, then you are comparing the sophistication of Adam with that of a child. Thus God left artless people in Eden with a dangerous Tree, not to mention a serpent in the background. And God did not see that this was bad?

Jehovah created man and animals and called them good, and they were, but he also warned of a stipulation in the continuation of good. The correction comes from the examination that was raised by the deception of Satan. In a basic sense God allowed the question of his rightful sovereignty to be questioned.

The onus was on the artisan to make sure that dangerous Satanic things were removed. Aside from all this, in what sense could the animals be described as "bad" and so required annihilation?

The first sin was an attack on Gods sovereignty, a sin of pride.

This sounds rather silly. We have the two infants attacking the "sovereignty" of God. God must have been terrified. A smile, a cough and a fatherly reprimand were called for. Instead we have a heartless eviction and the entire human race for all time affected, because of childish "pride" ..... and injured pride.

[David Henson]

[Replying to post 30 by Zzyzx]

I have no preference or problem since I am not a linguist or a Hebrew translator.

That isn't necessary, all you need is to do some research. Linguists and translators make mistakes too.

What I find objectionable is an Apologist claiming that words in common-use English language Bibles are wrong or mis-translated while substituting a different word that change the meaning of what appears in the Bible.

But I haven't done that. I've given a list of words used by various translations. I didn't say that the verse wasn't actually meant to imply that God created evil, but rather that he created strawberry shortcake.

Agreed that the implication of evil is subjective.

Then what does the context say? Does it seem to say that God created evil in the sense that there was no wrongdoing in the history recorded in the Bible prior to his having done so or does it seem to say that he created the evil which would follow the sin? Such as death from Adam's sin, or the great flood of Noah's day?

I take it from what is supposed to be the horse's mouth " a God saying that he created good and evil " as though those were opposing terms.

Well, then, what was the good and what was the evil God created?

I do not accept that God created anything, including the Hebrew ra. I observe that Bible stories say that he did " and that he created good and its offset evil.

Okay. That's what I got. What's the problem?

If the intent was to eliminate evil, how can it be regarded as successful if evil still exists (perhaps to a greater extent than pre-flood)?

How could the creation of evil be the intent to eliminate evil?

I do not think that ANY of the gods are all-knowing or all-powerful or perfect " except in the minds or imagination of Believers.

Well, I know, but for practical purposes with that in mind we discuss what the Bible says and take it from there. Doesn't matter at this point whether you consider it fact or fiction.

However, I observe that much of Christian dogma and literature seem to emphasize that their God is omniscient, omnipotent and perfect. If Apologists wish to claim that God is limited in knowledge, power, perfection I have no objection " but that seems to conflict with much of what is claimed in Christendom.

Okay, lets look at the scientific term omnivorous. A practical use of that word is an animal that eats everything, pretty much, right? Wait a minute - does that include thermonuclear warheads and space time continuum? No. Just food. Plant, animal.

Now consider omnipresent. What is the practical use of that? Its "widely or constantly encountered; common or widespread." But of God it is used in an impractical way which means everywhere at the same time. What does the Bible say? It says God has a fixed position in heaven. But he is also said to be, at different times, present on a mountain, in a newly constructed temple. So omnipresent doesn't work. Its religious nonsense. God can be wherever he wants to be whenever he wants to be but not everywhere at the same time. There is no indication of that.

This is getting a bit long, but you get the point.

[21stCenturyIconoclast]

[quote="David Henson"]
[Replying to post 26 by Zzyzx]


David Henson,

YOUR QUOTE: "What makes you think that Jehovah God is all-knowing and all-powerful and how would you know a "perfect" god from an imperfect one? Who's call is that?"

Did you really say that? Are you kidding?

Anything less than a god concept being omniscient is not a god. I don't know how you Jehovah Witnesses conveniently reinterpret the following passages in your heavily rewritten NWT bible, but here are passages that state your Yahweh is in fact omniscient.

This Bronze and Iron Age god of yours knows EVERYTHING (1 John 3:20). He knows not only the minutest details of your lives but those of everything around you, for He mentions even knowing when a sparrow falls or when you lose a single hair (Matthew 10:29-30). Not only does Yahweh know everything that will occur with you until the end of history itself (Isaiah 46:9-10), but He also knows your very thoughts, even before you speak them (Psalm 139:4). Your Yahweh is omniscient, period!

Now, if the above passages isn't Yahweh being omniscient, I don't know what is. A serious question, why do you show such insolence to your Yahweh in the manner that you spoke relative to omniscience, and by not calling him by his true given name as Yahweh, the tribal war god of the Hebrews?

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[marco]

Now consider omnipresent. What is the practical use of that? Its "widely or constantly encountered; common or widespread." But of God it is used in an impractical way which means everywhere at the same time.

Omnipresent means present everywhere simultaneously. If you define it "practically" you are either losing its meaning or speaking metaphorically. Perhaps you are thinking of ubiquitous, which has the meaning you ascribe to omnipresent.

Obviously the word is used in an "impractical" way regarding God, because God's abilities lie outside the practical range. If you accept there is a God, it's hardly a strain on the mind to accept he is omnipresent or whatever.

[David Henson]

[Replying to post 29 by Tired of the Nonsense]

Personally I don't for a moment suppose that the Jehovah God, or any other God, has ever existed. It does specifically say in the Bible however that God is omnipotent. Having the power to do anything presupposes both omniscience and omnipresence. So unless you want to dispute the truth of the Bible....

Sure! Let's do it! First of all, though, you don't think that Jehovah God, or any other God, has ever existed? What about two God's listed in the Bible? Moses and Tammuz, the Sumerian King?

You see, the word God simply means anyone or anything that is considered mighty or is venerated. Anything or anyone can be a god. What about Eric Clapton?

Now. Omnipotence . . .

Rev.:
[6] And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Wow. I don't remember that being there. That's a really bad translation, IMO. KJ21 uses omnipotent, ASV uses almighty, AMP uses Almighty, [the Omnipotent, the ruler of all] brackets theirs, CEV says all powerful, DARBY says Almighty, ESV uses Almighty, RSV uses Almighty.

What does it mean? Well, that's interesting. It says "(of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything. God" A list of synonyms looks like the list of translations above. Almighty, all powerful. In a practical sense it works with the Bible, but the religious implications that often come with it are somewhat questionable. God can't lie. He can't do anything against his own sense of justice. There are things he can't do.

[21stCenturyIconoclast]

[quote="David Henson"]
[Replying to post 1 by 21stCenturyIconoclast]


David Henson,

YOUR QUOTE: "Have you compared the verse with other translations and versions to get a better idea of what is being said?"

Again, it is hard for me to comprehend that you can actually make this statement which presupposes that any Christian can just pick the "version" of a passage they like the best in any biblical situation that is embarrassing, and be done with it to save face.

Have you ever thought of this notion? What your Yahweh of the Hebrew people only said once, he did not mean for anyone to take it in many different and contradicting ways, period!

It pains all rational thinking minds to watch a Christian like you turn themselves into pretzels in trying in vain to defend their serial killing god concept in the 21st century. Your use of insidious apologetics, hermeneutics, and outright proposals of just saying; "Thats a bad translation" or "I don't think Yahweh really meant that" and other comical spin doctoring that has no foundation, should be an embarrassment to you.

Instead of accepting the fact that your Yahweh should be left in the Before Common Era with those other god concepts, the irony of which that you don't accept as being true, you grasp for proverbial straws along with your cohorts that really aren't there anymore. You do this at the expense of rational and logical thinking where its truly sad to watch.


When Christians understand why you dismiss all the other gods in the Before Common Era, then you will understand why I dismiss yours.

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[21stCenturyIconoclast]

[Replying to post 35 by David Henson]




David Henson,

YOUR QUOTE: " God can't lie. He can't do anything against his own sense of justice. There are things he can't do."

Seriously, you keep stepping into the proverbial poo! Of course your Yahweh god lied, as shown in these passages, to wit: O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. (Jeremiah 20:7) As were aware, when one deceives another, they have lied to them, therefore Yahweh does lie in this instance with poor ol Jeremiah.

Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people. (Jeremiah 4:10) We can only assume that poor Jeremiah is burning in the sulfur lakes of Hell as we engage in this topic for making such a statement to the ever vengeful Yahweh of the Hebrew people ONLY.


When Christians understand why you dismiss all the other gods in the Before Common Era, then you will understand why I dismiss yours.

_________________________

[David Henson]

[Replying to post 31 by marco]

If your analogy has any meaning, then you are comparing the sophistication of Adam with that of a child. Thus God left artless people in Eden with a dangerous Tree, not to mention a serpent in the background. And God did not see that this was bad?

The tree had no special properties, though we don't know for sure many scholars now speculate that it was the pomegranate tree. These weren't children. The serpent wasn't naturally a threat, it was used by an angel, whom the Bible calls an angel of beauty, as a puppet or mouthpiece. The angel had been sent to protect them. (Ezekiel 28:12-19)

The onus was on the artisan to make sure that dangerous Satanic things were removed. Aside from all this, in what sense could the animals be described as "bad" and so required annihilation?

The Hebrew word Satan means adversary, it is first applied in scripture at Numbers 22:22 in application to a righteous angel of God as an adversary to Balaam. This angel used a donkey in a similar way as the angel used the serpent.

It wasn't that the animals were bad, it was that they were in a bad situation. And they were preserved.

[21stCenturyIconoclast]

[Replying to post 38 by David Henson]




David Henson,

YOUR QUOTES: "Wow. I don't remember that being there. That's a really bad translation, IMO. KJ21 uses omnipotent, ASV uses almighty, AMP uses Almighty, [the Omnipotent, the ruler of all] brackets theirs, CEV says all powerful, DARBY says Almighty, ESV uses Almighty, RSV uses Almighty. What does it mean? Well, that's interesting. It says "(of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything. God" A list of synonyms looks like the list of translations above. Almighty, all powerful. In a practical sense it works with the Bible, but the religious implications that often come with it are somewhat questionable. God can't lie. He can't do anything against his own sense of justice. There are things he can't do. The tree had no special properties, though we don't know for sure many scholars now speculate that it was the pomegranate tree. These weren't children. The serpent wasn't naturally a threat, it was used by an angel, whom the Bible calls an angel of beauty, as a puppet or mouthpiece. The angel had been sent to protect them. (Ezekiel 28:12-19) The Hebrew word Satan means adversary, it is first applied in scripture at Numbers 22:22 in application to a righteous angel of God as an adversary to Balaam. This angel used a donkey in a similar way as the angel used the serpent. It wasn't that the animals were bad, it was that they were in a bad situation. And they were preserved."

What you've presented above is some of the most funniest gobbledygook bending over backwards for Yahweh god that I've ever seen! Whats next, Tarot cards?

CONGRATULATIONS, YOU'VE BECOME THE "BURGER KING CHRISTIAN" FOR THE MONTH, WHERE YOU WANT THE BIBLE YOUR WAY, AND NOT YAHWEH'S WAY!

[21stCenturyIconoclast]

[Replying to post 38 by David Henson]




David Henson,

YOUR QUOTES: "Wow. I don't remember that being there. That's a really bad translation, IMO. KJ21 uses omnipotent, ASV uses almighty, AMP uses Almighty, [the Omnipotent, the ruler of all] brackets theirs, CEV says all powerful, DARBY says Almighty, ESV uses Almighty, RSV uses Almighty. What does it mean? Well, that's interesting. It says "(of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything. God" A list of synonyms looks like the list of translations above. Almighty, all powerful. In a practical sense it works with the Bible, but the religious implications that often come with it are somewhat questionable. God can't lie. He can't do anything against his own sense of justice. There are things he can't do. The tree had no special properties, though we don't know for sure many scholars now speculate that it was the pomegranate tree. These weren't children. The serpent wasn't naturally a threat, it was used by an angel, whom the Bible calls an angel of beauty, as a puppet or mouthpiece. The angel had been sent to protect them. (Ezekiel 28:12-19) The Hebrew word Satan means adversary, it is first applied in scripture at Numbers 22:22 in application to a righteous angel of God as an adversary to Balaam. This angel used a donkey in a similar way as the angel used the serpent. It wasn't that the animals were bad, it was that they were in a bad situation. And they were preserved."

What you've presented above is some of the most funniest gobbledygook bending over backwards for Yahweh god that I've ever seen! Whats next, Tarot cards?

CONGRATULATIONS, YOU'VE BECOME THE "BURGER KING CHRISTIAN" FOR THE MONTH, WHERE YOU WANT THE BIBLE YOUR WAY, AND NOT YAHWEH'S WAY!