YAHWEH creates evil, then drowns creation for it!

[21stCenturyIconoclast]

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"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and I create evil, I the LORD do all these things." ( Isaiah 45:7)

"Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6)

The reason that the Hebrew Christian Yahweh god, of which is one of many gods in the Before Common Era, decides to drown the entire world accept Noah and family, is because his creation are evil and unworthy of existence (Genesis 6:5). The irony is that Yahweh created evil in the first place as shown above in the passages in question. Yahweh is also omniscient (1 John 3:20) , therefore he knew his creation would falter and he would have to kill them, therefore Christians and Jews worship a god that is Schizophrenic!

"Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them." (Genesis 6:5-7)

Christians, can an innocent zygote or fetus ever be evil enough where they need to be destroyed within their mothers womb in the Great Flood, as your Yahweh caused abortions in this instance? Can an innocent baby really be evil where they need to die a horrible death by hopelessly treading water in Yahwehs flood for hours as they cry out in horror to their mothers; as their muscles burned due to large amounts of lactic acid production. Where once they finally give up, they went under, and held their breaths, where acidic carbon dioxide eroded their lungs until the unbearable pain forced them to inhale where there was no air for them to breathe. All the while, the ever loving and forgiving Yahweh god is watching.

Then the water brought into their little lungs robbed their little bodies of oxygen, causing them to go numb. As water violently rushed in and out of their little chests, it finally laid their heavily breathing and slowly dying bodies to the bottom of the ocean as the inhaled water caused their lungs to tear and bleed profusely. All the while, the ever loving and forgiving Yahweh god is watching.

As their blood supply dwindled, their innocent hearts slowly came to a halt. Even so, their brains continued to process information for another couple of minutes. They were patently aware that death was imminent, yet they could do nothing to prevent it. We can only imagine that their final thoughts would have been on what they did to deserve such horrific treatment and death. All the while, the ever loving and forgiving Yahweh god is watching.


When Christians understand why you dismiss all the other gods in the Before Common Era, then you will understand why I dismiss yours.

[David Henson]

[Replying to post 33 by 21stCenturyIconoclast]

YOUR QUOTE: "What makes you think that Jehovah God is all-knowing and all-powerful and how would you know a "perfect" god from an imperfect one? Who's call is that?"

Did you really say that? Are you kidding?

I didn't say it, as much as I asked it. i have no problem with God being all knowing and all powerful or perfect. Omnipotent and omniscient? I only have a problem with if the definition of those words exceed what the Bible indicates. Let's say, for example, did Jehovah know that Adam would sin? Did he know what Adam had done before Adam had done it? Did he know that Cain killed Abel before he asked him if he had? Did he know if the people in Sodom and Gomorrah were as bad as the people said they were before he sent his angels to report on the matter?

"Where are you?" "Who told you you were naked?" "From the tree . . . have you eaten?" Jehovah said to Adam. (Genesis 3:8-11)

"Where is Abel your brother?" "What have you done?" Jehovah said to Cain. (Genesis 4:8-11)

And Sodom and Gommorah? Consider Genesis 18:20-21 - "Consequently Jehovah said: The cry of complaint about Sodom and Gomorrah, yes, it is loud, and their sin, yes, it is very heavy. 21 I am quite determined to go down that I may see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it."

[David Henson]

[Replying to post 34 by marco]

Then what is the significance or the necessity to say his place is in heaven, or that at one time he was in the temple when it was newly constructed or that he was on the mountain with Moses?

[David Henson]

[Replying to post 33 by 21stCenturyIconoclast]

Now, if the above passages isn't Yahweh being omniscient, I don't know what is. A serious question, why do you show such insolence to your Yahweh in the manner that you spoke relative to omniscience, and by not calling him by his true given name as Yahweh, the tribal war god of the Hebrews?

I speak English, so instead of Yahweh or, as the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia may render it Yehwah, Yehwih, or Yehowah, I say Jehovah. i say Jeremiah instead of Yirmeyahu. I say Jesus rather than Yeshua or Yehoshua, Italians say Gesu, prounounced Djayzoo, Germans pronounce it Yaysoos, in Spanish, of course, its pronounced Hessoos'

[marco]

The tree had no special properties, though we don't know for sure many scholars now speculate that it was the pomegranate tree. These weren't children. The serpent wasn't naturally a threat, it was used by an angel, whom the Bible calls an angel of beauty, as a puppet or mouthpiece. The angel had been sent to protect them. (Ezekiel 28:12-19)

That would tie in with the myth of Persephone who erred by eating a single pomegranate seed.
I understand they weren't children. I was commenting on YOUR analogy that seemed to endow them with the understanding of children.
Why would they need any protection if they had a perfect Garden? Does God make mistakes then?

It wasn't that the animals were bad, it was that they were in a bad situation. And they were preserved.

They were in a bad situation? So they were destroyed. That seems rather excessive.

[David Henson]

[Replying to post 36 by 21stCenturyIconoclast]

Again, it is hard for me to comprehend that you can actually make this statement which presupposes that any Christian can just pick the "version" of a passage they like the best in any biblical situation that is embarrassing, and be done with it to save face.

No one is doing that.

Have you ever thought of this notion? What your Yahweh of the Hebrew people only said once, he did not mean for anyone to take it in many different and contradicting ways, period!

Again. I have no problem with the Hebrew ra being translated in any of the Bibles I gave, including evil. Words have various meanings. Get used to it. If your skepticism can't adjust accordingly you should find another hobby. None of the examples I gave from various translations change the meaning of the verse in question, your protest is invalid.

[Zzyzx]

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None of the examples I gave from various translations change the meaning of the verse in question, your protest is invalid.

Wait a minute

The terms you supplied for ra are

"envious,"
"bad,"
"ugly,"
"ungenerous,"
"gloomy,"
"malignant,"


Terms you quoted from Bible versions include

"calamity."
doom
disaster
woe
sorrow
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 312#784312


Is this to say with a straight face that replacing evil with the above terms does NOT change the meaning of the verse?

God said:

I create ugly
or
I create envious
or
I create ungenerous
or
I create gloomy
or
I create woe
or
I create sorrow

And the meaning is the same? Surely you jest " or perhaps consider readers very nave and gullible " or forgetful?

Let's give readers more credit.

[David Henson]

[Replying to post 37 by 21stCenturyIconoclast]

Well, this is actually quite interesting! We have some verses I don't think that I've addressed in the past suggesting that Jehovah had deceived people.

Iconoclast gave Jeremiah 20:7 as an example. My favorite translation, the New World Translation, renders it thus: "You have fooled me, O Jehovah, so that I was fooled. You used your strength against me, so that you prevailed. I became an object of laughter all day long; everyone is holding me in derision. "

Now I said that was my favorite translation. Note that it uses the word "fooled" where the quote from Iconoclast used the word "deceived." Given the context fooled is better but I think of it as being more of "pleasantly surprised." That's how I interpret what Jeremiah was conveying. His feeling. Here is why.

Jeremiah had had it. He prophesied but no one listened. They only listened to the false prophets who prophesied good things. Things they wanted to hear. He was mocked, scorned, laughed at, and put in stockades. And the message wasn't getting through. He hadn't the strength or will to go on.

But the message wasn't dependent upon his will or strength, but rather, Jehovah's. And the message was received. In this way he felt surprised, as if he had been deceived or tricked or fooled. That's what the text says, but the text doesn't give any indication of him actually being fooled, deceived or tricked. You ever have one of those "you got me" moments?

If you try to interpret his reaction as being surprised it works, but if you try to interpret it as him having been lied to, tricked, or fooled it doesn't.

RSV, KJV and ESV uses deceived, ASV uses persuaded with a footnote that reads or enticed, CEB And Darby uses enticed, CEV uses fooled, the NIV uses deceived with a footnote that reads or persuaded. I like persuaded the best. But I can understand all of the uses, even though they seem somewhat misleading, given the context the message is clear.

The other example given by Iconoclast is Jeremiah 4:10. Now, there, my favorite translation, the NWT, uses the word deceived.

How were the people deceived? And how, if at all, was Jehovah responsible? Perhaps some remember my post in the thread "Is It Just For God To Lie?" where I discuss the operation of error, which is Jehovah allowing people to believe what they want to believe? Read it here.

That's what this is. A similar example is found at Jeremiah 15:8 - "Why has my pain become chronic and my stroke incurable? It has refused to be healed. You positively become to me like something deceitful, like waters that have proved untrustworthy."

[David Henson]

[Replying to post 44 by marco]

That would tie in with the myth of Persephone who erred by eating a single pomegranate seed.
I understand they weren't children. I was commenting on YOUR analogy that seemed to endow them with the understanding of children.
Why would they need any protection if they had a perfect Garden? Does God make mistakes then?

No, the garden was a small paradise on a relatively harsh and newly formed planet.

They were in a bad situation? So they were destroyed. That seems rather excessive.

Look at it from the Creator's perspective. Animals were not created in his image. They would all eventually die, even the people that perished. They were headed for destruction. Perhaps a destruction that, had he allowed, would have been permanent.

[David Henson]

[Replying to post 46 by Zzyzx]

The translations I gave I don't have a problem with, the variations of possible translations in contexts dissimilar to that, ie., ugly, ungenerous, etc. I also gave scriptural examples of and wouldn't disagree with those, though different from evil in Isaiah 45:7. Words often have different meanings.

[ttruscott]

We can likewise say that God made all that is bad, for surely Cain, the murderer, was bad, and an earthquake that kills is bad.

imCo:
GOD explained to those created in HIS image that HE was the source and meaning of all good and that any opposition or non-conformity to HIS goodness could only be evil. Since HE created us with a free will and the ability and opportunity to choose to accept HIM as our GOD and thereby self create themselves as good or to reject HIM as GOD and thereby self create themselves as eternally evil having rejected the only source of salvation from their evil, we, HIS creation, are the source of all evil.

Cain self created the evil in his soul; GOD did not create it.
An earthquake is a disaster with either no moral content or a judgement against the evil of those who are affected by it.
No innocent suffers or dies or faces the outer darkness.
No sinner can point to another, neither GOD nor Adam as the source of his evil as evil can only arise from a free will decision to reject or rebel against that which is good, that is, YHWH.