Is Jehovah's Witness Christain

[Donray]

The Jehovah's Witnesses consider themselves to be Christians because they believe they are serving the true and living God. Like many cults, they think they are the only true church on earth. Yet, they deny the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the personhood of the Holy Spirit, Jesus' physical resurrection, and salvation by grace through faith

.

Typical with cults that use the Bible to support its position is a host of interpretive errors:
Taking verses out of their immediate context.
Refusing to read verses in the entire Biblical context.
Inserting their theological presuppositions into the text.
Altering the Biblical text to suit their needs.
Latching onto one verse to interpret a host of others.
Changing the meanings of words.
Proclaiming some passages to be figurative when they contradict their doctrines.
Adding to the Word of God.

I thought that any Christina church needed to believe in the Trinity otherwise they are not Christian.

For debate are the Jehovah Witness Christian?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 28 by Donray]

The New World Translation does not translate the words sheol, hades, gehenna, and tartarus as "hell because Jehovahs Witnesses do not believe in hell.

This is inaccurate. Jehovah's Witnesses believe what the bible has to say about "sheol", "hades", "gehenna" and "tartarus" and translate the words into appropriate English quivalents. To quote the official Jehovah's Witness position on this we can read the following

"The word hell is found in many Bible translations. In the same verses other translations read the grave, the world of the dead, and so forth. Other Bibles simply transliterate the original-language words that are sometimes rendered hell; that is, they express them with the letters of our alphabet but leave the words untranslated. What are those words? The Hebrew sheohl and its Greek equivalent haides, which refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind; also the Greek genna, which is used as a symbol of eternal destruction.

So basically, none of those words carry the meaning of eternal torture of an invisible soul (which is what the word "hell" has come to be associated with for many), and alternative words more accurately reflect the original greek or hebrew; Jehovah's Witnesses are not unique rendering thses words as "grave" "pit" etc. (see below)

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 28 by Donray]

The NWT gives the translation "presence" instead of coming for the Greek word parousia because Jehovahs Witnesses believe that Christ has already returned in the early 1900s.

.

No, Jehovah's Witnesses translate PAROUSIA as presence because that is one of the meanings of the word; BDAG points out that PAROUSIA can mean (1) "the state of being present at a place, presence" OR (2) "arrival as the first stage in presence, coming, advent." thus "presence" is a perfectly legitimate rendition of the word.

Further reading
http://fosterheologicalreflections.blog ... xomai.html



NOTE: Jehovah's Witnesses believe in BOTH the "parousia" (presence) and the "erkhomai" ("second" coming) of Christ.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 28 by Donray]

In Colossians 1:16, the NWT inserts the word other despite its being completely absent from the original Greek text. It does this to give the view that all other things were created by Christ, instead of what the text says, all things were created by Christ.

ALL translations add words that don't appear in the original greek it is how translators render their translations comprehensible in the target language; as long as those words are in line with the integrity of the original text then the adding of words is most unremarkable.

Colossians 1: 16 reads [NIV] "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him."

Paul here says here that "all things were created by him[Jesus]" including the things in heaven. Since Jesus himself is in heaven, is Paul saying that Jesus created himself? Obviously, not; the expression "ALL things ... in HEAVEN" has at least one exception - the exception being anyone/anything that was NOT created.

To illustrate: And angry teacher dismisses her class saying "everyone out!" Does this include herself? Clearly she means "everyone [else/other than myself] out!"

What Paul is saying is "Jesus created all things [in heaven] OTHER than the things/beings that were not created at all. Thus the word "other" is intrisic to the verse and a suitable word to add to the text to clarify the meaning intended.


Further reading
http://jehovah.to/xlation/other.html

[Donray]

Since the Catholic Church established the Orthodoxy for the Christin religion how can the JW be Christians?

The Catholic Church did not "establish the orthodox of the Christian religion" Jesus Christ did (hense the name "CHRIST-- ian").

Jesus (and not the Catholic Church, which did not exist until hundreds of years after Jesus walked the earth) never mentioned or even arguably alluded to having a truine nature. It can hardly be reasonable to argue that a "Church" that came into existence hundreds of years after Jesus had finished his earthly ministry and that even by their own admission developed a dogma gradually, well after first century christianity, can legitimately propose a central tenet of that faith.

To do so would imply that Peter, The Apostles and other faithful followers of Christ that never mentioned the word trinity much less taught, explained or promoted it was a central belief of the Christian faith, were "not real Christians".

JW

Why don't you supply the actual details that Jesus wrote in the establishment of a Christin religion? Jesus was a Jew and followed the laws of the Jewish bible.

So, lets see your documentation written by Jesus that established the Christian church.

Again, the JWs must say the trinity does not explain anything. The people that rewrote the bible for the JWs needed to support their perching as you are doing to further support your religion.

At least respond to my question about the name and qualifications of the JWs that did the translation.

I notice you failed to address all the other comments I made.

Prove that the Romans called the cross they used for crucifixions a "torture Stick" you should have no problem since there is a lot of literature from the Romans.

[JehovahsWitness]

Why don't you supply the actual details that Jesus wrote in the establishment of a Christin religion? So, lets see your documentation written by Jesus that established the Christian church.

Jesus no more had to "write" to establish the Christian religion, than cook needs to write a cookbook to make an omlette. He identified himself as "The Way" and encouraged others to follow him. Christians are generally accepted to be those that follow the teachings and example of Christ, and Jesus first followers were just as much his disciples as those in subsequent generation, although those first century believers probably never read a word of his writings since he probably didn't produce any.

First century christianity was established on first the spoken and then the written testimony of Jesus' Apostles and early followers. What it did NOT do was wait 300 years for the first Catholics to emerge; it is a matter of historical record that Christians existed from the late first early second century. The written accounts of the Apostles and early Christians are part of the bible canon and it is clear from these written documents that not only were there Christians long before any Catholics existed but that there was an organized religion made up of believers united in a set of estbablished doctrine and identifiiable first by the name "The Way" and later as Christians.

It is also evident from these writings (the bible canon) that the Trinity was non-existent as a dogma and does not figure in any fundamental teachings for those early believers.

[Donray]

[Replying to post 35 by JehovahsWitness]

You provided nothing that proved that Jesus crated a Christian church. I guess you nothing written by Jesus that establishes that Jesus created the Christin Dogma. When did Jesus define the cannon/scriptures of the Christin Religion? Why don't you explain why a JEW would create another religion?

You provided no answer to questions.

Where is your Roman lit that says "Torture Stick"?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 27 by onewithhim]

Lets take the major item. JW does not believe that Jesus is God as spelled out in the trinity. Since the Catholic Church established the Orthodoxy for the Christin religion how can the JW be Christians? I guess one could say anyone can declare that they are a Christin Religion, but does that make them a Denomination of THE CHRISTION RELIGION (the Roman Catholic Church)?

The New World Translation renders the Greek term word staurs ("cross") as "torture stake" because Jehovahs Witnesses do not believe that Jesus was crucified on a cross. The New World Translation does not translate the words sheol, hades, gehenna, and tartarus as "hell because Jehovahs Witnesses do not believe in hell. The NWT gives the translation "presence" instead of coming for the Greek word parousia because Jehovahs Witnesses believe that Christ has already returned in the early 1900s. In Colossians 1:16, the NWT inserts the word other despite its being completely absent from the original Greek text. It does this to give the view that all other things were created by Christ, instead of what the text says, all things were created by Christ. This is to go along with their belief that Christ is a created being, which they believe because they deny the Trinity.

The translators that created the New World Translation have not identified with there qualifications. As far as I can tell one person had two years of Greek and no Hebrew so how can this translation be accurate?

Now, answer my question. Name five items that all Christin Religions must believe.

(1) You are correct...we do not believe that Jesus is God, because the scriptures do not say that he is God. The doctrine of the Trinity was formed CENTURIES AFTER JESUS WALKED THE EARTH. That doctrine is not part of Jesus' teaching. If you can show me where Jesus teaches that he is God, I would like to see it.

JWs are not a denomination of the Catholic Church. We go back to JESUS and his teachings. I have been convinced by my own research that the Catholic Church was the "wolves in sheeps' clothing" that Jesus warned about, as did Paul and Peter. The RCC is a BREAK-AWAY from the Christian faith that Jesus taught.

"Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By what they do you will recognize them...." (Matthew 7:15,16) He went on to say that men would come to him claiming to be his followers, but they will not really be his followers. These false Christians will be sent away by him, him calling them workers of evil. (Matt.7:21-23)

"[Paul wrote] I know that after my going away [dying] oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak TWISTED THINGS to draw away the disciples after themselves." (Acts 20:29-30) Just who could that be? It was some group that took over the disciples SHORTLY AFTER PAUL DIED.

(2) What Jesus died on is not material for an acrimonious debate....in other words, we won't argue if you want to believe Jesus died on a cross. There is no absolute evidence one way or the other.

(3) Yes, the NWT does not translate "Gehenna" and "Tartarus" as "Hell" because they are not the same things as "Hades," which we DO believe is the Bible Hell. The NWT just leaves the various Greek terms as they are in the original Greek text. That shouldn't be objectionable. Even if you believe they are all the same. Right?

There are OTHER VERSIONS OF THE BIBLE that do as the NWT does and leaves the terms as they are in Greek. The New American Standard Bible is one. There are others also. So why come down on the NWT?

(4) We don't believe that Christ "already returned," even though his presence has been with us since he stepped up to the plate in 1914. He is now ruling only in the sense of him guiding his true followers here on Earth as they do his preaching work, witnessing to the whole world about God's Kingdom. (Matthew 24:14) He will "return" when he comes in full Kingdom power at Armageddon, getting rid of all evil people on the earth. (See Revelation 19:11-21)

(5) We will be willing to just leave off "other" at Colossians 1:16, if you would rather. To us the meaning is still the same as what we believe concerning Jesus creating everything. He did. He just didn't create himself.

(6) The story about the translators of the NWT has been really distorted. Brother Russell was questioned many decades ago about whether or not he knew Greek and he said no. Well, he did not translate anything. The committee who compiled the NWT took as their experts WESTCOTT & HORT, a very respectable translation committee. This has never been covered up in any way.

(7) You request: Name 5 items the all Christian religions must believe. Fair enough.

1. Jesus is the unique Son of God, and the Messiah sent by God to save the world of mankind from sin and death. (John 3:16)

2. We must listen carefully to Jesus through the scriptures, and do our best to follow what he says to do. (John 15:14; I Peter 2:21.)

3. Jesus deferred to his Father, always, and called Him "my God," so Jesus' followers would do the same....respecting the Father and using His name, just as Jesus did. (See John 17:6,26 and John 20:17.)

4. Jesus had the practice of going every week or even more often to the synagogue, so we would keep up his practice by going weekly to meetings of like-minded followers of Christ. (Hebrews 10:24,25) He also said that there would be a "faithful and wise" servant that would be doing his work on the earth when he comes again, and this would be a COMPOSITE "servant," just as the nation of Israel was called at Isaiah 43:10. So who would this "faithful and wise servant" be? It's obviously important to Jesus. We have to identify who it is that is giving Jesus' disciples spiritual food and "at the right time"'." Christians would be aligning themselves with and supporting this faithful composite servant. (Matthew 24:45)

5. Jesus' followers would be eagerly looking for GOD'S KINGDOM to come and cause God's will to be done on Earth. (Matthew 6:9,10) They would not get involved in the world's politics, because Jesus said he and his followers are "no part of the world." (John 17:16) Knowing that Jesus is our King, we wouldn't place our hope in any man. (Psalm 146:3) God's Kingdom is a real GOVERNMENT with a real King. It has SUBJECTS. Christians must believe that we will be the Kingdom's subjects, under the rule of Jesus Christ, when he "returns" at Armageddon to obliterate ALL of men's governments. (Revelation 19:11-21; Isaiah 9:6,7; Daniel 2:44)



Thank you for presenting your thoughts. I commend you for being willing to DISCUSS these points. I am looking forward to what you have to say about my responses to your points (1-7), hopefully you taking one at a time and expounding on each one.

[Donray]

(7) You request: Name 5 items the all Christian religions must believe. Fair enough.

1. Jesus is the unique Son of God, and the Messiah sent by God to save the world of mankind from sin and death. (John 3:16)

2. We must listen carefully to Jesus through the scriptures, and do our best to follow what he says to do. (John 15:14; I Peter 2:21.)

3. Jesus deferred to his Father, always, and called Him "my God," so Jesus' followers would do the same....respecting the Father and using His name, just as Jesus did. (See John 17:6,26 and John 20:17.)

4. Jesus had the practice of going every week or even more often to the synagogue, so we would keep up his practice by going weekly to meetings of like-minded followers of Christ. (Hebrews 10:24,25) He also said that there would be a "faithful and wise" servant that would be doing his work on the earth when he comes again, and this would be a COMPOSITE "servant," just as the nation of Israel was called at Isaiah 43:10. So who would this "faithful and wise servant" be? It's obviously important to Jesus. We have to identify who it is that is giving Jesus' disciples spiritual food and "at the right time"'." Christians would be aligning themselves with and supporting this faithful composite servant. (Matthew 24:45)

5. Jesus' followers would be eagerly looking for GOD'S KINGDOM to come and cause God's will to be done on Earth. (Matthew 6:9,10) They would not get involved in the world's politics, because Jesus said he and his followers are "no part of the world." (John 17:16) Knowing that Jesus is our King, we wouldn't place our hope in any man. (Psalm 146:3) God's Kingdom is a real GOVERNMENT with a real King. It has SUBJECTS. Christians must believe that we will be the Kingdom's subjects, under the rule of Jesus Christ, when he "returns" at Armageddon to obliterate ALL of men's governments. (Revelation 19:11-21; Isaiah 9:6,7; Daniel 2:44)

Your number one implies that there is the God of the OT and Jesus a demigod? god? or the NT. This means you worship at least two deities and therefor your religion is not a Monotheism religion. Christians say they are Monotheism and therefore your religion is not Christin.

OR

Your is the only Christin religion and 99% of what Christians think they are is not and they are not Christians.


http://www.gty.org/resources/questions/ ... he-trinity
Can you become a Christian if you deny the Trinity?
Answer:
I would answer, "No." If you dont believe in the Trinity, then you dont understand who God is. You may say the word God but you dont understand His nature. Second, you couldnt possibly understand who Christ is"that He is God in human flesh. The Incarnation of Christ is an essential component of the biblical gospel, as John 1:1-14 and many other biblical passages make clear. To deny the Trinity is to deny the Incarnation. And to deny the Incarnation is to wrongly understand the true gospel.

https://carm.org/do-you-have-to-believe ... -christian
The doctrine of the Trinity is the proper Biblical teaching concerning the nature of God. It is one of the defining elements of the Christian faith. The Trinity, like the deity of Christ (John 8:24, John 1:1, 14, Colossians 2:9), Christ's physical resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:14, 17), and justification by faith alone in Christ alone (Romans 3:28, 4:1-5, 5:1, Galatians 2:21) are among the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. To deny any of these is to deny what makes Christianity Christian. But, I want to make it clear that we believe these things because they are true and because the Holy Spirit who indwells Christians bears witness of truth (John 14:26, 15:26).
It is not believing in the Trinity that makes us Christian. Rather, it is being a Christian (and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit) that enables us to believe in the Trinity. So, in one sense it's not a requirement to affirm the doctrines the Trinity in order to become saved. However, the true Christian will not deny the doctrine of the Trinity because the Holy Spirit will bear witness of truth (John 15:26) in the Trinity as true. This would mean that anyone who claims to be a Christian but openly and continually rejects the doctrine of the Trinity is probably not truly saved.

[JehovahsWitness]

(7) You request: Name 5 items the all Christian religions must believe. Fair enough.

1. Jesus is the unique Son of God, and the Messiah sent by God to save the world of mankind from sin and death. (John 3:16)

Your number one implies that there is the God of the OT and Jesus a demigod? god? or the NT.

No it does not. It is completely clear it idenifies Jesus as "THE SON OF GOD" and "The Messiah" both of which are completely in line with scripture. Nothing else is implies but what Jesus said about himself as recorded in the bible.

[JehovahsWitness]

Can you become a Christian if you deny the Trinity?
Answer:
I would answer, "No." If you dont believe in the Trinity, then you dont understand who God is.

Just show us the word "Trinity" in the bible and the matter is settled. After all, if believing in the Trinity is so important it must have been mentioned at least one time by Jesus or the bible writers.