What If...?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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What If...?

Post #1

Post by theStudent »

Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.

During my research I discovered that lately, just over the last decade or so, a lot of informations has been surfacing about fake fossils.
In fact it has now become common place for fossils sold at museums to be checked for genuineness.
I find this interesting.

Why now, is this happening?
Could it be that evidence as it always does, is now surfacing?

For example
Remember the dinosaur hoax - the one that was said to be put together using different bones?
It has recently been found out that it wasn't a hoax after all.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/02/ ... ecies.html

That is quite interesting.

The fossils aren't the only things that were/are claimed to be fake.
There are the drawings, and pictures as well.
Right now, I am going through a very long document considered a case against some of Darwins picture illustrations.
But have you ever come across this one?

Pictures from the past powerfully shape current views of the world. In books, television programs, and websites, new images appear alongside others that have survived from decades ago. Among the most famous are drawings of embryos by the Darwinist Ernst Haeckel in which humans and other vertebrates begin identical, then diverge toward their adult forms. But these icons of evolution are notorious, too: soon after their publication in 1868, a colleague alleged fraud, and Haeckels many enemies have repeated the charge ever since. His embryos nevertheless became a textbook staple until, in 1997, a biologist accused him again, and creationist advocates of intelligent design forced his figures out. How could the most controversial pictures in the history of science have become some of the most widely seen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haec ... eks4-6.jpg
English: The pictures illustrate Ernst Haeckel's biogenetic law. In the beginning embryos of different species look remarkable similar, later different characteristics develop. The images initiated controversies and charges of fraud.

All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.

My question here, isn't whether he did lie or not, but rather, Does this not place evolutionists in the same position as the Christians they claim are believing in fables?

Consider:
Christians accept the Bible, as the word of God.
Here are just a few facts about the Bible.
With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time.
It has estimated annual sales of 100 million copies.
It has been a major influence on literature and history, especially in the West where the Gutenberg Bible was the first mass-printed book.
It was the first book ever printed using movable type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Archaeological findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, also called the Qumran Caves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The evidence is there however, that the book we hold in our hand today (the Bible), contains information written centuries ago.

Atheist call the book fables - the reason I have yet to find out.
Maybe one of the reasons is that they have not seen God, or seen him write any book - whatever.
So they claim that Christians' belief in them and what they present is blind faith, and belief in stories.

However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?


I'm just interested in you different opinions and thoughts, on the above.
Here is a nice short video of someone's opinion. Reasonable too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Re: What If...?

Post #191

Post by theStudent »

Willum wrote:No, no, no, it appears you are redefining what I did say. Not for nothing, but don't Christians accuse the Devil of this kind of ruse to deflect away from the truth.
Definitely no, and a big fat one, at that.
Clearly, there is no basis for you saying that - other than it being a detractor.
And certainly, I think you are just using that word "truth", because it sounds good. You also have no basis for that phrase either.
Willum wrote:My post says, order is natural. It is everywhere. There is a principle, called supervenience, and it loosely menas, the macro reflects the micro, or there is large-scale order that is similar to small scale order.

Crystals are very orderly, without design. When crystals grow, they replicate. Replication is a necessary component of life.
You're saying that no one put a code of order into crystals?
You're saying that no one put order into reproduction - so that sperm meets egg; the genetic code is written; cells start dividing into their respective organs, and order - so that the nose doesn't end up at the end of the toe; the blood vessels all go the right place; and amazingly each baby has developed fingerprints identical to no other?
You're saying that no one put order into the universe,so the earth just happened to be the right distance, from it's energy star?

So if you went into a room, and found all the chairs in rows eight, in columns four feet apart, you would conclude that that could happen by chance?

Well I will say one thing.
I will never ask that question here again.
John 8:32
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Re: What If...?

Post #192

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 172 by Willum]
Willum wrote:Now, know that I am going to keep rounding back on the questions you sagely refuse to answer.
You keep saying this.
This is not the only thread either.
If I have not answered your question, it's likely I missed it, or I don't understand it, and asked you to clarify.
So the appropriate things, at least, I would think it would be appropriate, to isolate, and post the question.
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Re: What If...?

Post #193

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 173 by Kenisaw]

Kenisaw wrote:First off, how is that quote proof that a god creature exists and created us? I'd like a specific answer to this question too if you don't mind.
It can't.
I didn't put it there to prove any god creature.
I hope that's direct enough, because that's as direct as I can get.
Kenisaw wrote:Second, yes we can say with 100% certainly that life can happen via "blind chance". There is nothing about life that violates any law of the universe. Everything about life is chemically possible. We don't know how it specifically happened, but we do know it is possible. Please retract your statement.
We? Who do you mean?
Are you speaking for yourself, or all of whom you represent?

Well, I guess all the we(s), are willing to go against certain laws of science, in order to accept a scientific theory then.
Namely the laws of thermodynamics - 2nd and 3rd, to be exact - which depend upon entropy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy
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Re: What If...?

Post #194

Post by theStudent »

Clownboat wrote:
theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 154 by Clownboat]
Ooh
And here's mine.
Some info that some might find relevant:

The Bible...
1 Corinthians 1:19-21
19For it is written: I will make the wisdom of the wise men perish, and the intelligence of the intellectuals I will reject. 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this system of things? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not get to know God through its wisdom, ...
I read this as a celebration of ignorance and sheepish behavior. I can see why a guy creating a church would rejoice in such things, can't you?
Then he says that the world did not get to know God through its wisdom, well derp, the world has not gotten to know any god to this point, wisdom or not.

Should we really trust what the Bible says about wisdom anyways?
- Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing, therefore get wisdom and with all they getting, get understanding.
- Ecc 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief, and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
Since you cannot prove that life originated from blind chance, which scientists have been looking for, for like, ever, It might be, in fact I suggest you go where the evidence leads, and accept the fact that we are the product of intelligent design. :)
...before it's too late.
You are not talking to children here. It would be best if you left your scare tactics to the terrorists. A god could do better than to try scare people into belief.
Believe or burn!!!
I'm not trying to scare anyone.
I am simply returning a favor.
You offered me, what I took to be advice, I simply did the same.
Doesn't one good turn deserve another? Or don't you believe in that either?
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #195

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 175 by Clownboat]

I already addressed it.
How do you read?
Speculation
S p e c u l a t i o n
Definition
  1. A message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence
  2. A hypothesis that has been formed by speculating or conjecturing (usually with little hard evidence)
  3. Continuous and profound contemplation or musing on a subject or series of subjects of a deep or abstruse nature
    • i.e. "the habit of speculation is the basis for all real knowledge"
If that's not enough for you, try this
http://www.icr.org/article/new-research ... hromosome/
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Post #196

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 176 by Kenisaw]
Kenisaw wrote:How does a quote from one person equate to, as you call it, "many scientists do not accept the evidence"? Every poll I've ever seen says at least 97% of all scientists accept evolution as a valid scientific theory on the diversity of life on Earth (religioustolerance.org has some historical data showing trends of this as well by the way). You can keep quote mining all you want, that percentage says it all.

And, as usual, you don't argue about the morphological studies on fossils, or the geological data on the age of the rocks, or the genetic data showing how things are related. No, you post quotes and link us to articles that are pseudo-science or that you use in the wrong context because you don't understand them. But you "love sceince"...
Kenisaw... Respectfully...
Do you read what I post, or you skim most of them?
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Post #197

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 177 by Kenisaw]
Kenisaw wrote:No, that is not what it "officially became". If you go to wikipedia and type in "chemical evolution" it will offer up several other topics, one of them being abiogenesis. When you go to the abiogenesis link it does not mention chemical evolution. It's getting ridiculous how much stuff you make up in a vain effort to boost your own baseless argument...
Respectfully.
Maybe I don't understand too well, but this is how I read.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis
Abiogenesis
The study of abiogenesis involves three main types of considerations: the geophysical, the chemical, and the biological,[13] with more recent approaches attempting a synthesis of all three.

The Miller"Urey experiment and similar experiments demonstrated that most amino acids, basic chemicals of life, can be synthesized from inorganic compounds in conditions intended to be similar to early Earth.

Other approaches ("metabolism first" hypotheses) focus on understanding how catalysis in chemical systems on the early Earth might have provided the precursor molecules necessary for self-replication.

Robert Shapiro has summarized the "primordial soup" theory of Oparin and J. B. S. Haldane in its "mature form" as follows:
  1. The early Earth had a chemically reducing atmosphere.
  2. This atmosphere, exposed to energy in various forms, produced simple organic compounds ("monomers").
  3. These compounds accumulated in a "soup" that may have concentrated at various locations (shorelines, oceanic vents etc.).
  4. By further transformation, more complex organic polymers"and ultimately life"developed in the soup.
The chemical processes that took place on the early Earth are called chemical evolution.
Perhaps my head is a bit hard, or maybe I don't understand the scientific... speech.
Perhaps you can help me get it right.
Kenisaw wrote:ROFL. That's rich. Look at your own OP, and tell me in all your talk about fossils and Darwin and biogenetics you get into "chemical evolution". You talk about nothing but the scientific theory of evolution as first proposed by Darwin. Your own words show what a fraudulent claim your statement truly is.
Oh.
I got my answer.
It's not that you don't read, or do you?
Now I am confusing myself.
How do you read?

In other words, do you understand what you read?

Example
theStudent wrote:However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?
Don't worry though.
It happens to all of us, whenever we take people's statements at face value, or in parts, intead of a whole, or sometimes when we think we know what they mean, becase we already have a preconceived idea.
Kenisaw wrote:If you honestly were trying to include chemical evolution in your OP, then you did a horrendous job constructing your OP...
Are you addressing things I said, or things I didn't say.
I'm not going to play guessing games with your post, and just say things that I want to say, instead of addressing what you say.
John 8:32
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Post #198

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 178 by H.sapiens]
H.sapiens wrote:Lewontin is a friend of mine, well ... someone who I know from meetings whom I've socialized with at such functions. He does not speak for me, he does not speak for science in large part or small ... he only speaks for himself. He's funny, very quick, very bright and a Marxist. He is often very incitement when it comes to evolution but sometimes (as in the quote you posted) he gets a bit strange, think of it as a problem similar to Francis Collins' evangelism or Ken Miller's Catholicism.
It's not just him H.sapiens.
If you want me to do some more quote mining, I can give you a few more.
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Post #199

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Hi help3434
help3434 wrote:Is there any evolution debate on this forum that doesn't go like this? A creationist says he doesn't believe in evolution. He then tries to refute evolution by attacking a strawman that contradicts what the actual theory of evolution says and shows that he doesn't even understand the basics. This is pointed out by a half a dozen posters or so time after time, but to no avail as the creationist keeps strawmanning evolution and supporting his argument with quote mines and citations from crackpot YEC "scientists".

It would be a refreshing change of pace if a creationist actually criticized the actual theory of evolution.
That was a fast ball.
So let's change the pace a bit. Shall we.

Has evolution been proven to be a fact?
"It may depends on the context of evolution."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution ... and_theory
Many scientists and philosophers of science have described evolution as fact and theory, a phrase which was used as the title of an article by paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould in 1981. He describes fact in science as meaning data, not absolute certainty but "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of such facts. The facts of evolution come from observational evidence of current processes, from imperfections in organisms recording historical common descent, and from transitions in the fossil record. Theories of evolution provide a provisional explanation for these facts.

Each of the words "evolution," "fact" and "theory" has several meanings in different contexts. Evolution means change over time, as in stellar evolution. In biology it refers to observed changes in organisms, to their descent from a common ancestor, and at a technical level to a change in gene frequency over time; it can also refer to explanatory theories (such as Charles Darwin's theory of natural selection) which explain the mechanisms of evolution. To a scientist, fact can describe a repeatable observation that all can agree on; it can refer to something that is so well established that nobody in a community disagrees with it; and it can also refer to the truth or falsity of a proposition. To the public, theory can mean an opinion or conjecture (e.g., "it's only a theory"), but among scientists it has a much stronger connotation of "well-substantiated explanation." With this number of choices, people can often talk past each other, and meanings become the subject of linguistic analysis.

Evidence for evolution continues to be accumulated and tested. The scientific literature includes statements by evolutionary biologists and philosophers of science demonstrating some of the different perspectives on evolution as fact and theory.

Evolution, fact and theory
Evolution has been described as "fact and theory"; "fact, not theory"; "only a theory, not a fact"; "multiple theories, not fact"; and "neither fact, nor theory." The disagreements among these statements, however, have more to do with the meaning of words than the substantial issues and this controversy is discussed below.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution ... and_theory
Evolution
Professor of biology Jerry Coyne sums up biological evolution succinctly:
Life on earth evolved gradually beginning with one primitive species"perhaps a self-replicating molecule"that lived more than 3.5 billion years ago; it then branched out over time, throwing off many new and diverse species; and the mechanism for most (but not all) of evolutionary change is natural selection.


But the central core of evolution is generally defined as changes in trait or gene frequency in a population of organisms from one generation to the next. This has been dubbed the standard genetic definition of evolution. Natural selection is only one of several mechanisms in the theory of evolutionary change that explains how organisms historically adapt to changing environments. The principles of heredity were re-discovered in 1900, after Darwin's death, in Gregor Mendel's research on the inheritance of simple trait variations in peas.[page needed] Subsequent work into genetics, mutation, paleontology, and developmental biology expanded the applicability and scope of Darwin's original theory.

Evolution according to Keith Stewart Thomson,
the word evolution has at least three distinct meanings:
  1. The general sense of change over time.
  2. All life forms have descended with modifications from ancestors in a process of common descent.
  3. The cause or mechanisms of these process of change, that are examined and explained by evolutionary theories.

Change over time is a fact, and descent from common ancestors is based on such unassailable logic that we act as though it is a fact. Natural selection provides the outline of an explanatory theory.


Biologists consider it to be a scientific fact that evolution has occurred in that modern organisms differ from past forms, and evolution is still occurring with discernible differences between organisms and their descendants. There is such strong quantitative support for the second that scientists regard common descent as being as factual as the understanding that in the Solar System the Earth orbits the Sun, although the examination of the fundamentals of these processes is still in progress. There are several theories about the mechanisms of evolution, and there are still active debates about specific mechanisms.

When we say a thing is a fact, then, we only mean that its probability is an extremely high one: so high that we are not bothered by doubt about it and are ready to act accordingly. Now in this use of the term fact, the only proper one, evolution is a fact.

Fact
Definition:
  1. A piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred
    • i.e. first you must collect all the facts of the case
  2. A statement or assertion of verified information about something that is the case or has happened
    • i.e. he supported his argument with an impressive array of facts
  3. An event known to have happened or something known to have existed
    • i.e. your fears have no basis in fact"; "how much of the story is fact and how much fiction is hard to tell
  4. A concept whose truth can be proved
    • i.e. scientific hypotheses are not facts
Evolution has never been proven to be either a truth or a fact.

Evolution from a common ancestor is unproven - not a fact.
...but accepted nonetheless.
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Post #200

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The hypothesis of a Last Universal Ancestor remains unproven.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_universal_ancestor
The LUA is estimated to have lived some 3.5 to 3.8 billion years ago (sometime in the Paleoarchean era). The earliest evidence for life on Earth is biogenic graphite found in 3.7 billion-year-old metasedimentary rocks discovered in Western Greenland[4] and microbial mat fossils found in 3.48 billion-year-old sandstone discovered in Western Australia. A study in 2015 found potentially biogenic carbon from 4.1 billion years ago in ancient rocks in Western Australia. Such findings would indicate the existence of different conditions on Earth during that period than what is generally assumed today and point to an earlier origination of life.

...the LUA is thought to have been a small, single-cell organism. It likely had a ring-shaped coil of DNA floating freely within the cell, like modern bacteria. Morphologically, it would likely not have been exceptionally distinctive among a collection of generalized, small-size, modern-day bacteria. However, Carl Woese et al, who first proposed the currently-used three domain system based on an analysis of the 16S rRNA sequences of bacteria, archaea, and eukaryotes, stated that the LUA would have been a "...simpler, more rudimentary entity than the individual ancestors that spawned the three [domains] (and their descendants)" regarding its genetic machinery.

In 1859, Charles Darwin published The Origin of Species in which he twice stated the hypothesis that there was only one progenitor for all life forms. In the summation he states, "Therefore I should infer from analogy that probably all the organic beings which have ever lived on this earth have descended from some one primordial form, into which life was first breathed." The very last sentence is a restatement of the hypothesis: "There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one."

In 2010, based on "the vast array of molecular sequences now available from all domains of life," a formal test of universal common ancestry was published. The formal test favored the existence of a universal common ancestor over a wide class of alternative hypotheses that included horizontal gene transfer. While the formal test overwhelmingly favored the existence of a single LUA, this does not imply that the LUA was ever alone. Instead, it was a member of the early microbial community.
However, in their quest to find LUA, they decided that Archaea would be a most probable acceptance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaea
Archaea were initially classified as bacteria, receiving the name archaebacteria (in the Archaebacteria kingdom), but this classification is outdated.

Archaea reproduce asexually by binary fission, fragmentation, or budding; unlike bacteria and eukaryotes, no known species forms spores.

Archaea were initially viewed as extremophiles living in harsh environments, such as hot springs and salt lakes, but they have since been found in a broad range of habitats, including soils, oceans, marshlands and the human colon, oral cavity, and skin.[5] Archaea are particularly numerous in the oceans, and the archaea in plankton may be one of the most abundant groups of organisms on the planet.
So a single-celled microorganisms split itself to produce two or more different kinds of species.
Did not.
Concept of species
The classification of archaea into species is also controversial. Biology defines a species as a group of related organisms. The familiar exclusive breeding criterion (organisms that can breed with each other but not with others) is of no help here because archaea reproduce asexually.

The ARMAN are a new group of archaea recently discovered in acid mine drainage.
Archaea show high levels of horizontal gene transfer between lineages. Some researchers suggest that individuals can be grouped into species-like populations given highly similar genomes and infrequent gene transfer to/from cells with less-related genomes, as in the genus Ferroplasma. On the other hand, studies in Halorubrum found significant genetic transfer to/from less-related populations, limiting the criterion's applicability. A second concern is to what extent such species designations have practical meaning.

Current knowledge on genetic diversity is fragmentary and the total number of archaeal species cannot be estimated with any accuracy. Estimates of the number of phyla range from 18 to 23, of which only 8 have representatives that have been cultured and studied directly. Many of these hypothesized groups are known from a single rRNA sequence, indicating that the diversity among these organisms remains obscure. The Bacteria also contain many uncultured microbes with similar implications for characterization.
Here too is a gap they want us to fill in.
From a single-celled microorganisms to multi-celled organisms which depend on minerals to survive.
So these scientists believe in miracles after all.
And you guys still don't want to admit that it's an anti-God religion, based on blind baseless faith.

For example, look at this idiotic reasoning, and absurd conclusion.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... -ancestor/
Using computer models and statistical methods, biochemist Douglas Theobald calculated the odds that all species from the three main groups, or "domains," of life evolved from a common ancestor"versus, say, descending from several different life-forms or arising in their present form, Adam and Eve style.

The statistical analysis showed that the independent origin of humans is "an absolutely horrible hypothesis," Theobald said, adding that the probability that humans were created separately from everything else is 1 in 10 to the 6,000th power.
Honestly, I suggest he should have ran a test on his brain - no joke - to see what it is, inside his head.
What manner of brain could produce such a conclusion?

Today, when any species from the three main groups, or "domains," of life produce offspring/seed, what do they produce?
A species of the same kind.

If particular species of any one of the three main groups, or "domains," of life mate, what do they produce?
A species of the same kind with different charateristics.
For example, the ridiculous Liger (crazy idea from crazy minds - poor creatures).
You can graft two plants to get another of the same kind with different charateristics.

Everything produces according to its kind.
Everything has its own material makeup.
That's how life was designed.
What else do they expect to find?

Try mating an animal with a plant. What do you get?

Unbelievable.
The more information I look at on this subject is just leaving me in more and more disbelief.
And to see that these are men with PHDs and the like.

I just have to repeat (so that I don't lose my sanity)
Romans 1:21-23
...but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their senseless hearts became darkened. 22Although claiming they were wise, they became foolish 23and turned the glory of the incorruptible God into something like the image of corruptible man and birds and four-footed creatures and reptiles.
Ah...
Sanity...
How much I give thanks for these words of wisdom. Ah... how refreshing indeed.


https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life
The origin of life is a scientific problem which is not yet solved. There are plenty of ideas, but few clear facts.
Life originated itself spontaneously from chemicals.
Proven? - No.
Reasonable? - No.
Logical? - No.

Life originated from an intelligent creator.
Proven? - No.
Reasonable? - Yes.
Logical? - Yes.


Now.
Here is a challenge to you guys.

A little quote mining wouldn't hurt in this case, I suppose, since it's from your team.
Hermann Joseph Muller
So enormous, ramifying, and consistent has the evidence for evolution become that if anyone could now disprove it, I should have my conception of the orderliness of the universe so shaken as to lead me to doubt even my own existence. If you like, then, I will grant you that in an absolute sense evolution is not a fact, or rather, that it is no more a fact than that you are hearing or reading these words.
Kenneth R. Miller
evolution is as much a fact as anything we know in science.
Ernst Mayr observed
The basic theory of evolution has been confirmed so completely that most modern biologists consider evolution simply a fact. How else except by the word evolution can we designate the sequence of faunas and floras in precisely dated geological strata? And evolutionary change is also simply a fact owing to the changes in the content of gene pools from generation to generation.
Using the quotes of these guys...

I am designer.
If someone gave you one of my designs, would you be able to prove whether I did it or not?
I would say no. N O.
Even if you asked the one who gave you.
Even if you asked me.
Even if you asked those who saw me do it.
That's the only facts/evidence you have, and it's up to you to accept it, or not.
There is another option you have...
You could say nobody designed it. The materials just came together in some unexplained fashion - and voil !

So crystal clear, as pure water in an untarnished glass, is the fact that I am responsible for this design, that for anyone to disprove it, I should have my conception of the orderliness of the universe so shaken as to lead me to doubt even my own existence.
I will go as far as to say that if I am not the designer then you are not reading these words.

The universe, as well as all within it, bear evidence of a designer.
I go so far as to say that the evidence for creation being a fact, is so abundant, that for one to deny it, is to accept that nothing is real - including us.

The challenge to you...
Prove to me that the universe, and all within it, was not created/designed by someone.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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