Is Jesus God ?!!

[mms20102]

As for all Christians its known by nature that Jesus is God yet there are many contradictions in the bible that can prove that Jesus is only a prophet .

In this debate i want every one who has a good knowledge to give the reasonable proofs that Jesus is god or at any point of the bible where Jesus said worship me .

At the same time i will be providing proofs from the bible that Jesus is not God but only a messenger

as for a start i will ask a question :

What Are The Qualification Of God ?!

[Divine Insight]

So Christianity holds that Jesus is clearly NOT God.

What do you make of John’s Prologue – the first eighteen verses of the 1st Chapter? What do you make of Luke and Matthew’s recording of a virgin giving birth to a kid – a motif (virgins giving birth to gods) that was quite common in the area? What do you make of John saying, “I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of YHWH’,� and pointed out that he was preparing the way for Christ.

It seems you’re just facilely dismissing evidence contra your argument.

Christians can't allow Jesus to be a "demigod". That would make it a polytheism. So clearly they had to event a God with a multiple personality disorder. So in this sense Jesus is merely one of the "Faces" of God.

I mean, let's face it, this entirely religious paradigm is absolute nonsense no matter how we try to patch it up. It's just a very poorly written collections of fables that Christian apologists have been apologizing for for centuries to no avail.

It's not like they only need to apologize for a couple of things and suddenly the whole paradigm falls into place. In fact, it's just the opposite of this. They need to continually make up endless apologies for every little thing in the entire paradigm and even their apologies don't even make any sense and often end up being self-contradictions as well.

So in the end it really doesn't matter what Christians claim about Jesus. Nothing they claim can be made to hold water anyway.

But you can hardly have Jesus sitting at the right hand of himself. It also makes no sense for God to be speaking from the clouds proclaiming Jesus to be his "Son" if Jesus was in fact God himself. Should God have spoken from the cloud saying, "This is me in the body you call Jesus, listen to what I say from this body".

Why not face the TRUTH? This entire religious paradigm is nothing more than extremely poorly written superstitious myths.

It really can't be anything other than this. It's simply not possible. It's way too self-contradictory.

I mean, if you can believe Christianity then you may as well go back and believe Greek Mythology. Greek Mythology is no more absurd.

[JLB32168]

Christians can't allow Jesus to be a "demigod". That would make it a polytheism. So clearly they had to event [sic] a God with a multiple personality disorder. So in this sense Jesus is merely one of the "Faces" of God.

And yet, you said that Christianity doesn’t allow Jesus to be God. You’ve overthrown your argument for me. Thanx

I mean, let's face it, this entirely religious paradigm is absolute nonsense no matter how we try to patch it up. It's just a very poorly written collections of fables that Christian . . .

And as I predicted, once a skeptic’s arguments were rebutted – since clearly the verses that were cited haven’t even been addressed in your post – s/he has repaired to the “Your stupid deity doesn’t even exist� failsafe.

[eyeroll]

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 8 by JLB32168]

Hi, JLB32168

"If I lose my life, I will find again
I will soar on eagle's wings and then
Ever cease from war, rest in Jesus arms
For the Lord, He's good and I am safe from harm"
"Safe From Harm" by BEBE WINANS

What Are The Qualification Of God ?!

Are we actually going to assume that for the sake of argument that God exists?

I don't think that we have to. What are the qualifications for the god of the Bible... the God of the Bible can be completely fictional.. doesn't matter. We are talking, I think about the CHARACTER in the book.

This is more like literary criticism. It's like as if we were asking what are the qualifications for a wizard... nobody has to believe that Harry Potter really exists to do that.

I don't know why exactly you still have to ask about that... it's like you're walking in a mine field or something. You seem to need to feel.. safe from harm before you step on in.

Or is every rebuttal of a skeptic's argument going to repair to the argument, "Well . . . you can't even prove that God exists?"

Well, you can't even prove that God exists. Oh.. wait.. YOU GOT ME!!!

If it's the latter (which always seems to be the case) then I see little point in debating the question.

Up to you, I suppose.
Nobody is going to FORCE you into a debate.

Assuming that the answer is “Yes, we’ll assume for the sake of argument that the Judeo-Christian deity exists,�

( again, completely unnecessary )

then there are two states of being in the created universe – that which is created and that, which is uncreated. God is the uncreated Creator of everything else that isn’t Him.

So, for Jesus to be a god, he would have to have been the uncreated Creator.

According to Christian theology the Son of God existed with the Father and the HS and is uncreated.

Well, it's open to interpretation. I'm not sure that all Christians believe what you just said that they do. It's probably true of SOME Christians, no doubt.

So, in your opinion, to be a god, one needs to be an uncreated creator, and then be uncreatedly created within three gods in one somehow. Is that it?

I wonder how one GETS to be uncreated? Any ideas about that?

When the SoG became a H. sapiens he took the name “Jesus.�

In what way is Jesus subservient to the father part of the God?
Because it seems to be the case ...

[Willum]

[Replying to post 12 by JLB32168]

And as I predicted, once a skeptic’s arguments were rebutted – since clearly the verses that were cited haven’t even been addressed in your post – s/he has repaired to the “Your stupid deity doesn’t even exist� failsafe.

Well, it's a reasonable failsafe - every tale from the OT is stolen from another culture, and badly mis-applied.

And also, not for nothing, but your rebuttal seems to rest on allegory. You could make of it anything you want or nothing.
You rebuttal has no solid fist in it's glove.

[mms20102]

Ok brothers and " sisters If there is " now I can see that u all agreed to the part that

1- Jesus is not god

2- Jesus is the son of god

Now after we have an agreement I would go to the next part what is the qualification of god >>>>>>

If god would have a son then this son should be god by nature .

Jesus is sometimes referred to as 'Lord' in the Bible and at other times as 'Son of God'. God is called the 'Father', so putting these names together it could be claimed that Jesus is the son of God. But if we look at each of these titles in context we will find that they are symbolic and not to be taken literally.

'Son of God' is a term used in ancient Hebrew for a righteous person. God calls Israel his 'son': This is what the LORD says: Israel is my oldest son.[Exodus; 4.22]. Also, David is called the 'Son of God': The LORD has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.' [Psalm; 2.7]. In fact anyone who is righteous is referred to as God's 'son': All who are led by God's Spirit are God's sons and daughters. [Romans; 8.14].

In the same way, when the word 'Father' is used to refer to God it shouldn't be taken literally. Instead it's a way of saying God is the creator, sustainer, cherisher etc. There are many verses for us to understand this symbolic meaning of the word 'Father', for example: one God and Father of all. [Ephesians; 4.6].

Jesus is sometimes called 'Lord' by the disciples. 'Lord' is a term used for God and also for people who are held in high esteem. There are many examples of the word 'Lord' being used for people in the Bible: So they (Joseph's brothers) went up to Joseph's steward and spoke to him at the entrance to the house. "We beg your pardon, our lord," they said. [Genesis; 43.19-20]. Also, in other parts of the Bible, Jesus is even called a 'servant' of God by the disciples: the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. [Acts; 3.13]. This clearly shows that when 'Lord' is used to refer to Jesus, it is a title of respect not of divinity.

Yet for every one who was saying I have no proof for contradictions and it takes a lot of debate to find them actually its clear and can be found in no time I will mention 1 or 2 that support the subject .

First verse is " By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work " Gensis 2

now this verse goes back to first question what is the qualification of god can god rest and can got get tired " my opinion" > God is immortal so there no God can rest nor die

Second verse "38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.� 39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. " Matthew 12:38-40

Can god curse in the holy book ?! in many positions in the bible its known either Jesus or God have both cursed their people " in my opinion God never curse "

We can also see here that the sign of Jonah is not like Jesus as Jonah stayed alive in the belly of the whale unless u can say that Jesus was alive inside earth " which is not our main topic "

[mms20102]

[Replying to mms20102]

No, Jesus isn't a god, but then who is?

The requirements for a god are rather paltry. Look to the first Sumerian gods, which are identical to the OT gods (sorry hosts, etc., well Elohim is the plural of the els', which means 'god.'), and these are very humble requirements. No need for all-power, invented by the Greeks in the 3rd century BC, and jealously copied by others, since.

What would you yourself require to worship some entity as a god? Control of the harvest? Rain and water? Birth, growth, etc.?

We find that as man has mastered these things, irrigation, cultivation, our requirements for God have grown. Even now, we find that we are at another impasse where our primitive minds hid God, we can now look for him, and not find him.

So, what are the qualifications of God, for a man that can do everything?
(Great OP, thank you!)

now the question is what entity u think is worth worshipping ?
how can u define God

[JLB32168]

I don't think that we have to. What are the qualifications for the god of the Bible... the God of the Bible can be completely fictional.. doesn't matter. We are talking, I think about the CHARACTER in the book.

When I said that we presuppose he exists that means that we can debate a character – such as whether or not Athena’s actions of send serpents to kill Laocoan and his sons were moral. As you can also see, the verses I brought to bear on this discussion weren’t even addressed. Instead we got a red herring on the supposed stupidity of the Christian faith – an all too common digression on this board whenever a theist engages a question.

So, for Jesus to be a god, he would have to have been the uncreated Creator.

. . . or the uncreated creator incarnate as a man, which is the case in Christianity. Again, we’re discussing the theology and not whether or not the Theos upon which it is based exists.

Well, it's open to interpretation [the Son of God existed with the Father and the HS and is uncreated.] I'm not sure that all Christians believe what you just said that they do. It's probably true of SOME Christians, no doubt.

Normative Christian theology believes the above tenet and that is why it was articulated in the Nicaene Creed.

So, in your opinion, to be a god, one needs to be an uncreated creator, and then be uncreatedly created within three gods in one somehow. Is that it?

No – one Creator in ousia (essence) and three hypostases. That which is common to all three is the Essence/Ousia. That which is particular to one hypostases is the Person. A fire is one thing, but it possesses three aspects – light, heat, and smoke – for a crude comparison.

I wonder how one GETS to be uncreated? Any ideas about that?

I’m not sure but physicists have posited that the singularity from whence the Big Bang erupted always was since space/time and the laws of physics, which include cause/effect were only created after the bang. I suppose once they explain how that came to be then Christians will be able to articulate how God could always have existed.

In what way is Jesus subservient to the father part of the God?

He isn’t. God has one will. Jesus only “obeyed� the Father in that in becoming a human, obedience to God is an aspect of humans. Man’s ontology/existence had to be rebooted and just as it was corrupted by Adam’s obedience, it was reset by Christ’s obedience – hence Christ’s designation as Adam#2.

[mms20102]

First I want to represent myself as many may have been confused
my name is Mohamed Helal .. Muslim .. Not atheist
now brother u say

That which is particular to one hypostases is the Person. A fire is one thing, but it possesses three aspects – light, heat, and smoke – for a crude comparison.

I’m not sure but physicists have posited that the singularity from whence the Big Bang erupted always was since space/time and the laws of physics, which include cause/effect were only created after the bang. I suppose once they explain how that came to be then Christians will be able to articulate how God could always have existed.

He isn’t. God has one will. Jesus only “obeyed� the Father in that in becoming a human, obedience to God is an aspect of humans. Man’s ontology/existence had to be rebooted and just as it was corrupted by Adam’s obedience, it was reset by Christ’s obedience – hence Christ’s designation as Adam#2.

now this is a little confusing brother
how can Jesus obey its like saying god created himself to obey himself now what is the purpose of god to incarnate himself why he didn't just send a messenger with miracles and if u can go through the bible u will find that Jesus always refer to his father not himself .

As I can understand there is no way to father except through me I can translate I have knowledge for the way to the father

Another thing is scholars removed the trinity as fabrication yet it was introduced again in the second international version

Yet in the bible its said the god is a person the son is a person and the holyspirit is a person but they are not 3 persons but one if u take your example u said fire has three aspects so fire is the creator of light and smoke and heat .
"this can be a side topic as trinity " We can't refer to Fire by light or smoke or heat as each got its own independent form

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 15 by mms20102]


Hey there, mms20102

An argument that could be completely wrong about the facts is perhaps valid, but not sound

Ok brothers and " sisters If there is " now I can see that u all agreed to the part that

1- Jesus is not god

Considering that I don't believe in any gods... yeah, I believe that people can't BE gods.. EXCEPT in tall tales, like the Bible. So, we are talking about a story book character.. who can be ANYTHING at all. Even a god. When I read the stories.. I think that Jesus is possibly a god... hard to tell, really. The stories in the Bible are all very MESSY and hard to understand.

In any case, I don't agree with ( 1 )

2- Jesus is the son of god

I don't agree with that.

1. I don't BELIEVE in gods of any kind.
2. Anyone can write anything at all... even "Hey, guys, I'm the son of God " Doesn't prove a THING. If someone told that to ME.. I'd think "DELUSIONAL"

Now after we have an agreement I would go to the next part what is the qualification of god >>>>>>

The best I can do for you here is to agree FOR THE SAKE OF THE ARGUMENT. ( FTSOTA ) So, let's pretend that I agree with your (1) and (2).

( by the way, it's of no use to ASSUME agreement.. you should check to see if you actually have it )

If god would have a son then this son should be god by nature .

HUH?

Doesn't follow at all.
Depends on the story.

So, I can't agree with this premise.

Jesus is sometimes referred to as 'Lord' in the Bible and at other times as 'Son of God'. God is called the 'Father', so putting these names together it could be claimed that Jesus is the son of God. But if we look at each of these titles in context we will find that they are symbolic and not to be taken literally.

Yeah, those titles sound like a lot of hoo-haa hyperbole. I can't take them SERIOUSLY... but in the story book.. I can pretend just like other people. I do the same for any fantasy books.

In any case, you could be wrong, so I can't agree.

'Son of God' is a term used in ancient Hebrew for a righteous person. God calls Israel his 'son': This is what the LORD says: Israel is my oldest son.[Exodus; 4.22]. Also, David is called the 'Son of God': The LORD has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.' [Psalm; 2.7]. In fact anyone who is righteous is referred to as God's 'son': All who are led by God's Spirit are God's sons and daughters. [Romans; 8.14].

In the same way, when the word 'Father' is used to refer to God it shouldn't be taken literally. Instead it's a way of saying God is the creator, sustainer, cherisher etc. There are many verses for us to understand this symbolic meaning of the word 'Father', for example: one God and Father of all. [Ephesians; 4.6].

You make a fine case.
But we really don't know exactly WHAT the Bible authors meant. So.. we have to speculate. And BOY OH BOY, do religious people love to do that!

You idea makes a lot of sense.
But you could be completely wrong.

So, argument fails.
Good try, though.

[JLB32168]

How can Jesus obey its like saying god created himself to obey himself now what is the purpose of god to incarnate himself why he didn't just send a messenger with miracles and if u can go through the bible u will find that Jesus always refer to his father not himself.

I thought I already explained that. Christ possessed all of the aspects proper to H. sapiens (in addition to deity.) His obedience to Father as a human would reboot man’s nature which was corrupted by disobedience to God. That was the only reason he needed to obey as a human.