God, justice, fairness and perfection

[Justin108]

For this debate, I need you to answer each of these questions in order.

1. Is God perfectly fair and just?

2. If God is not perfectly fair and just, does that mean God is by definition imperfect?

3. Does everyone have an equal chance in getting into heaven?

4. If everyone does not have an equal chance in getting into heaven, is God still perfectly fair and just?

[Justin108]

Where is this "appearing" that you are speaking of with regard to Abraham?

Genesis 18:1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.

The first instance recorded between God and Abram is of God speaking to Abram and telling him to leave his country

That's good enough for me. If God spoke to me, I would believe in him as Abraham did. Alas he does not and never did. And so I am an atheist. If God would only speak to me, I would receive salvation for my belief

"Everyone" did not do (and would not have done) what Abram did. So 'everyone' did not receive that blessing.

So I don't even get a chance? You just assume that "well you wouldn't have done the same anyway". If God just assumed "he wouldn't have done it anyway so I won't give him a chance" then we have determinism and there is no way determinism can ever be fair. Under determinism, I was born to be doomed as an atheist who will go to hell.

His children and their children, etc, wavered between obeying and disobeying.

Yes but they were given the chance to obey and be blessed for their obedience. Those born into other families never had the same chance to obey and will never receive this blessing. If I cam to you with a quiz and you won the quiz and won a million dollars, you might say to me you deserve it because you answered the quiz. Yet someone else who would also have answered the quiz were they given the same chance did not win a million dollars because they never had the chance to answer the quiz. Abraham's sons got their blessing for obeying God, yet the sons of a man in India never had the opportunity to obey God because God never appeared before them or their father.

Since the nation as a whole rejected Christ, however, the offer was opened up to everyone equally, who would put faith in Christ.

This is the part you don't get: It is SO MUCH EASIER for YOU to have faith in Christ because your family and your country supports you in this. A man in India or Iraq will likely not have faith in Christ because he was never indoctrinated and his family and country does not support faith in Christ. He does not have the same chance you do. Jesus' direct disciples had proof for their faith in Christ whereas I do not. It is so much easier for them to have faith in Christ than it is for me because I was not fortunate enough to receive the proof they did.

Regardless of whether or not any of them deserved it more than others: Abraham DOES deserve it FOR his children.

Okay so Paris Hilton deserves to be rich despite the fact that she has never worked a day in her life for her fortune whereas poor Billy who had heroine addicts for parents deserve to be poor? Because in your eyes, if our parents succeeded or failed, WE deserve the results of THEIR success/failure. Is this right?

That is still an assumption.

No the fact that God never spoke to me makes this a fact, not an assumption.

Just because someone does not hear, does not mean that God (and/or Christ) have not spoken.

If a policeman whispers "put your hands in the air or I will shoot" and you didn't hear it, is it your fault? Or the police for whispering?

If an omnipotent God spoke in a way that I cannot hear, then he did so knowingly. If I say something that I know is too unclear for you to hear then it is not your fault for not hearing, it is my fault for not being clear enough.

When I say "God never spoke to me" I don't mean it in the poetic way theists love so much. I mean it in a literal and very audible way as he did with Moses. God speaks to Moses in a literal and audible way yet he does not speak this way to me. This is unfair.

So He spoke, but they hardened their hearts and did not hear. It is the same today.

Did he speak literally? Did they hear it as though a person was talking to them? Or did God just give them warm, fuzzy feelings or a sign like a pamphlet waving into their face?

I did not realize my Lord was speaking to me most of my life, and sometimes I ignored that small still voice and did my own thing (which always amounted to landing in hardship that could have been avoided or made easier had I listened).

Exodus 3 describes an interaction between Moses and God. In this interaction, God spoke loudly and clearly to Moses in a literal dialogue. I never received this kind of interaction with God and I suspect you never did either. God's interaction with Moses here wasn't just a feeling or a sign. It was a very audible conversation between God and Moses.

The 144 000 is a number that is set, the portion of Israel that God has reserved.

So from birth, these 144 000 have a far better chance to go to heaven than someone not part of this 144 000? They are practically guaranteed as long as they do not blaspheme against the holy spirit?

It is possible to lose that sealing, but I think it would take blasphemy against the holy spirit for this to happen. If one person in that number does lose their place, then another will take their place. The number is what is set.

So if someone did lose his place, he would be doing someone else a favor because they can now take his place? I find this odd

The advantage is that this is reserved for those who are physically of these 12 tribes. That is why the tribes are listed.

So because you are lucky enough to be born into a certain tribe, you are automatically given an advantage over those who weren't? How is this fair?

Maybe

Okay so we have a maybe. Maybe God is unfair.

Depending upon why He gave more to one person

There simply is no good enough reason. Remember, these are newborns. They have never done anything to deserve anything. So what possible justification can there be for giving one an advantage over another? There is no justification that will absolve this for being unfair.

But perhaps God being merciful is better for us than God being fair.

Are you saying that God is merciful but unfair?

It is not restricted to believers only.

Mark 16:16 and Revelations 21:8 says it is.

But the subjects of the Kingdom are from the people of the nations who were not in Christ. They are made up other beliefs, atheists, agnostics, etc.

So I am Moses' subject just because I wasn't lucky enough to receive proof of God the way he did?

No, this world is as we have made it.

God designed a world where men are mortal, men have natural desires, resources are scarce, etc. God designed a world where children gain certain privileges because of the success of their fathers. This is all part of God's design. WE did not create a world of limited resources. WE did not create a world where we are mortal and where we need to fight for survival. All of this is the result of the way God designed this world. If he made us immortal, with limitless resources, nothing to compete over... then the world wouldn't be the way it is.

Even if our forefathers destroyed the world, why are we being punished for it? Why is God placing us in this world? Why don't we all get our own paradise like Adam did? Why don't we all get the same chance? Yet now we all have to suffer because Adam ate the fruit? How is this fair?

So if you are suggesting that this world is unfair, then I agree with you. If you are suggesting that this is God's fault, then I disagree with you.

God places us in this situation. If I kidnapped you and took you to a war-zone and dropped you off there where you end up being killed, who's fault is it that you died?
It would be my fault for knowingly taking you to a dangerous place. I might not be the one who shot you or dropped a bomb on you, but it is still my fault. Similarly, God is unfair for placing us in a world that he knows is unfair and corrupt. If God were fair, he would give us our own paradise as he did for Adam.

The people refused to hear God. They did not want to hear God. They said to Moses: YOU go and then come back and tell us. WE are too afraid (lack of faith). You talk to God and then tell us, and we will do what you say.

I don't care. I wasn't part of these people. I never made this choice. Why did these people get to choose on my behalf?

God was coming down to reveal Himself to them, to talk to them. THEY did not want that. He gave them what they asked for.

Yes "THEY". I am not part of "THEY".

No, we are to listen to His Son, who does speak to everyone

Does Jesus speak in a literal, audible way as God did to Moses? Or does Jesus speak with feelings and signs?

And if we do not hear Him, but wish to, then we may ASK God for ears TO hear, so that we may serve Christ and God, and any of whom they send us to.

Why would a Hindu or a Muslim ever be tempted to do this? Have you ever been tempted to ask Allah or Krishna to talk to you?

And no, entering the kingdom is based upon what you have done.

Not according to Mark 16:16 or revelations Revelations 21:8

Since such people are also able to enter the Kingdom and receive eternal life based upon the above

They are able to just as a legless man is able to climb Mount Everest, but it is unfair that he had to struggle so much more than a man who was lucky enough to be born with legs.

You are lucky enough to be born in a Christian house in a Christian nation. The man born in a Muslim house under Sharia Law is not so lucky. It is possible for him to become a Christian, but it is so much harder than it is for you to be a Christian. The chances of him failing are greater than the chances of you failing simply because he was born in the wrong family in the wrong country.

What? No. I am not worrying about what others may or have received more than me.

I am not talking about those who receive more than you! I am talking about those who receive less than you! Am I not clear on this??

So they can receive their own blessing through Christ.

Again, a person born in a Muslim or Hindu family has no reason to believe in Christ so they do not have the same chance as those who were born in Christian families.

Because the man who worked hard for his children has earned for them the right not to work so hard.

This man deserves the happiness he gets, but his children who sit at home and watch TV all day do not. He deserves it. They do not. Again, using Paris Hilton as an example. She never did a single thing to deserve her fortunes. A child born into a house of heroine addicts never deserved his misfortunes

It would be unfair if his work for his children was taken from them and given to someone else.

Like you said, this world has finite resources.

God created this world with finite resources. God is the cause of this unfairness

No one is cast into the lake of fire due simply to not believing

Revelations 21:8 says otherwise. Whether it is a literal lake of fire is irrelevant. Unbelievers are given the second death because of their unbelief according to Revelations 21:8.

Again, you are equating an unfair world to God being unfair; when this world is what man has made of it.

I am talking about the advantages and disadvantages of birth place. Suppose my soul is in heaven. God decides to take me to earth to be born. He could let me be born in a Christian nation where my life would be easy, or he can let me be born in a war-torn Muslim nation where I will probably never be a Christian. God decides to let me be born in the Muslim nation. And so my unfair life begins because of a decision God made.

I do know that this is incorrect, and I can support this 'bold claim'. But another thread or another post, perhaps, as this one is long as it is. Though I did address Rev above.

This is relevant enough to the topic at hand. We don't need to start a new thread as your claim applies to this one. So please, support your claim that unbelievers are not condemned despite what Mark 16:16 and Revelations 21:8 says

[JehovahsWitness]

If "suffer" simply means "allow" then why does no one "suffer" in heaven or paradise in this manner?

Depending on the context and whether the verb is used as a transitive or not, "to suffer" CAN mean to experience something negative OR in archaic English (which is what The King James Version you quoted, is written in) : "let/ permit/ allow" (see below).



#5: 1permit 1 <“I have done what man could. Suffer me to go.� — Mark Twain, A Connecticut Yankee>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suffer

It's strange that the word "suffer" is never used in a positive manner in the Bible.

MATTHEW 19:14

English Standard Version
but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.�

Berean Literal Bible
But Jesus said, "Permit the little children, and do not forbid them to come to Me, for of such is the kingdom of the heavens."

King James Bible
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

other translations
http://biblehub.com/matthew/19-14.htm

Greek Strongs #863 [click on image to enlarge]

http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebibl ... 8.htm#S863

[Justin108]

Yes, I believe God takes all of these things into account, but in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, everyone has to feel remorse. They need to repent.

And what about the matter of belief? According to Mark 16:16 and Revelation 21:8, those who do not believe are condemned and cast into the lake of fire.

I rather like John's verse:

Excuse me but it's not a matter of what you like, it's a matter of what's in the Bible. John's verse doesn't make Mark and Revelations go away

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him."

Rejecting the Son is rejecting all good. I believe non-believers are equated with those who reject Jesus. Nobody rejects Jesus out of ignorance. As you say, there are many who have not been born into Christian households. Some don't even know He exists! So non believers say, "Well, I've rejected Jesus because I don't believe He existed or that He is the Son of God." It is the rejection of Jesus when one knows fully who Jesus is that is the unpardonable sin.

This interpretation might have been valid if you look at John 3:36 in isolation, but paired with Mark 16:16 and Revelations 21:8, it clearly says "unbelievers" and not merely "those who reject Christ". If the Bible merely said "those who reject Christ" then you may have had a point, but the Bible specifically mentions "unbelievers" which means those who have never heard of Jesus is not excluded from this as they are still classified as "unbelievers" and is therefore condemned by both Mark 16:16 and Revelations 21:8.

An infant does not have the ability to choose between right and wrong. Nobody truly knows what happens. Does the child resurrect as an infant not having the capability of even knowing God? It is a mystery. As for us, it is only right that evil needs to be punished. There are shades of grey in life. God being fair, will always take it into account.

Logically speaking, there are only two possible outcomes to an infant death: either they go to heaven or they go to hell.

If they go to heaven, it is unfair as they never had to undergo the trials we do.
If they go to hell, it is unfair as they were never given a chance.

Either way, God is unfair.

It means we all have an equal chance because Jesus wants to save all sinners. That is, the least righteous of them all. Therefore, wouldn't a God who loves us all equally be fair?

You are essentially using the fact that Jesus called himself fair as proof that he is fair. If his actions prove otherwise, his claim is useless. All Luke 15:7 tells us is that God is particularly happy when a sinner repents and goes to heaven. This doesn't say anything about whether everyone has an equal chance. If a man in a wheelchair escapes a burning building, I will be particularly happy. But my happiness over his survival does not mean he had an equal chance at escaping the burning building.

[JehovahsWitness]

Is heaven better than paradise?

I couldn't say for sure, I haven''t experienced either. I personally believe that those that live in heaven definitely have a higher position and greater powers than those on earth since spirits are presented in the bible as higher (more intelligent and more powerful) lifeforms. I also beleive the bible when it says (not in the exact words I am deducing from specific verses, summarizing what I believe the content is saying) that those humans that are given the privilege of going to heaven will also be given authority over those on the earth. Is more aurthority and power "better"? Is it better to be a student or a teacher? I don't know, it's just different in my opinion.

That said, I would also add that I believe that being in the location of the Creator and possibly being eventually the opportunity to meet him personally and literally see him would indeed be a greater privilege than living in the material realm and not being able to literally see God.

Whether it is "better" I think that would depend on what one needs, a fork is not better if what you need is a spoon. I don't think it would be better for me as I am now.


Purely perosnal opinion and speculation,

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Revelation 21:8 mentions "unbelieving" among those who will be cast into the lake of fire. Again, why mention "unbelieving" when it is our actions and not our beliefs that matter?

Evidently because both are important to God. I believe based on Rev 21:8 and other passages that God will ultimately judge people on both their actions and their faith/belief or lack thereof. It seems what what one believes is important to the God of the bible, since Revelation 21:8 which says God will ultimately destroy those that are "unbelieving" ("faithless"/"unfaithful" compare: http://biblehub.com/revelation/21-8.htm )

Why not say "the disobedient" instead?

Because one can be "obedient" and still lack faith (be unbelieving/unfaithful ). Faith is a condition of the heart as well as the head, and it seems God is going to judge both our inner inclinations AND our actions. (see above - Rev 21:8)

[PghPanther]

[Replying to Justin108]

All bets are off here..............God is the boss, sets the rules and owns the house where you gamble your soul. Its his way or the highway.

Fairness doesn't count................oh apologist might point to verses in the Bible and disagree with me but it come down to one get out of jail free card for the believer in the critique of anything about a personal Biblical God.

"Holy"...........

Yup that's it......

See humans aren't holy......and we don't know what it is like to be holy so therefore we cannot make any judgment about God because we have no concept of what it is to be like that and God does............so whatever God says and does is because he's holy.............divine command theory................

So throw those heathen children against the rocks as God rejoices in that...........because?

He's holy..................and as a result of him being holy his ways are "mysterious" to us.

That's their fantasy in a nutshell..............better than the plot of a superman comic and just as much a part of reality as the comic is..........

[Justin108]

I couldn't say for sure, I haven''t experienced either. I personally believe that those that live in heaven definitely have a higher position and greater powers than those on earth since spirits are presented in the bible as higher (more intelligent and more powerful) lifeforms. I also beleive the bible when it says (not in the exact words I am deducing from specific verses, summarizing what I believe the content is saying) that those humans that are given the privilege of going to heaven will also be given authority over those on the earth. Is more aurthority and power "better"? Is it better to be a student or a teacher? I don't know, it's just different in my opinion.

I find a hierarchy in a place of perfection quite pointless. We have a hierarchy on earth because people need to work together to achieve certain goals. There are hierarchies on earth so that orders can be given and results achieved. In a world of perfection where nothing ever goes wrong, what is the point of a hierarchy? What kind of orders will those in heaven give to those on earth? Will people on earth still need to work to survive? Surely not. They are immortal. I find hierarchies redundant in paradise.

Anyway, if going to heaven is in fact a privilege over paradise, then we have enough evidence to conclude that God is unfair.

Premise 1: The privilege of going to heaven is afforded only to believers (you agreed on this in post 125 and 130)
Premise 2: Not everyone has an equal opportunity to be a believer (you agreed on this in post 127 and in post 86 you outright said that not everyone has an equal chance to get into heaven)
Conclusion: God is not perfectly fair as he does not give everyone the same chance to achieve the same privilege

Evidently because both are important to God. I believe based on Rev 21:8 and other passages that God will ultimately judge people on both their actions and their faith/belief or lack thereof.

This makes no sense! If EVERYONE is going to AUTOMATICALLY be absolved of the sin/crime/call it what you will, why is it a sin/crime? It would make far more sense for belief to not be a sin/crime at all. It would change nothing. All it would change is it would spare moral atheists from unnecessary trips to God's "court". The same amount of people will go to paradise either way.

To illustrate, the current situation is:
- moral atheists: paradise (as their "sin/crime" of unbelief is automatically resolved during judgement)
- moral Christians: paradise
- immoral atheists: death (their lack of belief is irrelevant as they are already going to die due to their immorality)
- immoral Christians: death

Now take away the requirement for belief and what we have is
- moral people: paradise
- immoral people: death

As you can see, nothing changes. So why is belief on the list of requirements?

It seems what what one believes is important to the God of the bible, since Revelation 21:8 which says God will ultimately destroy those that are "unbelieving"

Yet during judgement, no one will be an unbeliever as everyone will see God... so no one is then destroyed for being an unbeliever. So Revelations 21:8 is pointless in mentioning this... Who will God destroy for being "unbelieving" if NO ONE will be unbelieving?

Because one can be "obedient" and still lack faith (be unbelieving/unfaithful ).

That's what I've been saying this whole time. Belief is separate from behavior yet you seem to insist that it is only our behavior that matters. As it stands, a man can be moral (i.e have the right behavior) but lack faith. He is then judged for his lack of belief by God and as God judges him, he immediately gains belief. This brings us to the absurd scenario in post 118 and 121.

Faith is a condition of the heart as well as the head

Please refrain from overly poetic speech. This sentence means nothing to me. What exactly does it mean if faith is a condition of the heart?

and it seems God is going to judge both our inner inclinations AND our actions. (see above - Rev 21:8)

Are you suggesting that belief in God somehow makes us better people on the inside? Can atheists not have good inner inclinations according to you?

[JLB32168]

Please reference the relevant scripture to support this claim.

�for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them.�

I never said "it's just about belief". What I am saying is that belief is a necessary requirement (as per Mark 16:16). BOTH are needed in order to receive salvation according to the Bible. So if a good man exists that is not a believer, he will be condemned as per Mark 16:16

You’re hanging a doctrine upon one verse to the exclusion of all other verses.

In which case, anyone who claims non-believers go to heaven is contrary to Mark 16:16 and would therefore be rejected according to the process you describe.

No – just as anyone who says, “All murder is criminal� based upon a state statute. Indeed people aren’t prosecuted for killings done in war or killing in self-defense. We don’t hang things upon one statute in a book.

Key word: presumably.

Yes – is there a point? Is that point that I can’t know if God is actually clarifying? That’s a Captain Obvious statement. I’ve already considered that and rejected it as improbable.

What if a church other than your own would hold such a council meeting but conclude a vastly different dogma? Who's dogma wins? Your church or theirs?

If one wishes to be an Eastern Orthodox Christian then one must abide by our Church.

The Bible felt it necessary to repeat the fact that non-believers go to hell, so why not at least once mention that there are exceptions?

You’re just repeating your point over again. Repeating it doesn’t establish it. It’s just called an argumentum ad nauseam.

The fact of the matter is no exceptions to this rule are mentioned. It is therefore unjustified to assume such exceptions exist.

That no exceptions are mentioned is an argument from silence, which is a fallacious argument. I’ve already shown that God doesn’t judge the invincibly ignorant since they’ve never heard the Gospel; however, they still do what their conscience directs (since they’re made in God’s Image and Likeness and know intrinsically that chopping up your children to make soup is wrong.)
I shall await your mere restatement of your inital position for the fifth or sixth time w/o actually addressing the evidence contra your point that I've just brought to the table.

[Justin108]

Please reference the relevant scripture to support this claim.

�for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them.�

When referencing, you can't just copy-paste a paragraph. You have to tell us what that paragraph is from. Book? Chapter? Verse?

Anyway, all this verse does is demonstrate a contradiction in the Bible. This verse contradict Mark 16:16. This verse suggests only our actions matter, yet Mark 16:16 clearly tells us our beliefs matter. So which is it? If we go to heaven just for being moral, then Mark 16:16 does not belong in the Bible.

You’re hanging a doctrine upon one verse to the exclusion of all other verses.

And you are ignoring the fact that this verse exists. If a verse agrees with Mark 16:16 then the conclusion is that non-believers are condemned. If a verse does not agree with Mark 16:16 then this is a contradiction within the Bible.

No – just as anyone who says, “All murder is criminal� based upon a state statute. Indeed people aren’t prosecuted for killings done in war or killing in self-defense.

That's because exceptions are clearly stated. There are clear statutes that state that if one kills in self-defense, that person is not guilty of murder. The Bible, however, makes no exceptions to unbelief. There is no verse that says "it's okay to be a non-believer if you have never heard of God before"

We don’t hang things upon one statute in a book.

Yes but you cannot give me the statute that grants exception to Mark 16:16.

What if a church other than your own would hold such a council meeting but conclude a vastly different dogma? Who's dogma wins? Your church or theirs?

If one wishes to be an Eastern Orthodox Christian then one must abide by our Church.

As someone not of the Eastern Orthodox church, this rebuttal does not work on me. All you're essentially saying is "I'm forced to believe the Church because I'm a member". But why is a non-member of your church expected to believe your church is any better than any other church? Have you ever considered the possibility that you're in the wrong church? What if some other church is getting the true revelations from God and your church is just greatly mistaken? Basically, your argument boils down to "because my church says so". That's a pretty poor argument.

The Bible felt it necessary to repeat the fact that non-believers go to hell, so why not at least once mention that there are exceptions?

You’re just repeating your point over again. Repeating it doesn’t establish it. It’s just called an argumentum ad nauseam.

Well you have yet to refute my argument so this is no argumentum ad nauseam. If you refuted it and I still repeat it, then I would be committing the fallacy.

As it stands, my argument remains: God mentions several times that non-believers are condemned. He does not mention once that there are any exceptions. It is therefore unreasonable to assume there are exceptions when none are ever mentioned.

That no exceptions are mentioned is an argument from silence, which is a fallacious argument.

And saying "there are exceptions" without any proof that there are exceptions is a baseless assumption

I’ve already shown that God doesn’t judge the invincibly ignorant since they’ve never heard the Gospel

I don't recall. Can you please quote the part where you have shown this?

I shall await your mere restatement of your inital position for the fifth or sixth time w/o actually addressing the evidence contra your point that I've just brought to the table.

What evidence?

[JehovahsWitness]

I find a hierarchy in a place of perfection quite pointless.

I'm sure you do, but evidently, the God of the bible does not.

In the bible, perfection is being completely in line with God's standards. I believe (according to scripture) that God never intended any intelligent being (even perfect) to exist without someone above them in terms of authority. The only person that cannot have anyone exercise any kind of authority over them in my opinion is Almighty God. Everyone else in the new order will have to be subject to someone.

In a world of perfection where nothing ever goes wrong, what is the point of a hierarchy?

The point is, according to the Jehovah's Witness interpretation of Scripture, is for righteous people to live happily. Scripture indicates (I'm not using the exact words, am deducing from several passages and putting them in my own words according to my understanding of their meaning) that to be happy humans need leadership and order. That is a need we believe that will be satisfied by the order of of rulership promised.

What kind of orders will those in heaven give to those on earth?

I cannot say for sure, the bible indicates (not the exact words, I am deducing from several scriptures) that those that go to heaven will make up the heavenly Government under Christ and that further instructions as to how things will be restructured will be provided at the appropriate time.

Will people on earth still need to work to survive?

Yes. While I believe the present oppressive, unsatisfying, thankless stressful system of work which is really a form of corporate slavery, which many have to struggle under just for the bare necessities will be a thing of the past; I feel the need for satisfying work is fundamental in humans. So while we may be working for "ourselves" doing what we enjoy, we will still be "working". Humans that have nothing to do or live solely for superficial pleasures, are rarely in my opinion happy.

Surely not.

Biblically yes. The bible that speaks of people being able (for example) to build and live in their own homes and of course we will still need to eat, so the bible speaks about planting and reaping and of people enjoying the fruitage of their work whether their "work" is designing, building, exploring, creating, inventing or maybe all of the above at various times...