So we often come across the use of perfect and God in the same sentence.
I am finding this to be an Inigo Montoya moment for myself: I didn't seem to find an answer on
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=29019
Can anyone describe how God is perfect, without calling on perfection in the definition. Why and how is God perfect?
Cite an example if you would as well...
Just as a spoiler --
God is perfect because he created the Universe and the Universe is perfect.
Well, the universe isn't perfect, if you catch my drift...
In order to make this debate, I suppose I'll have to take a position -but I really wouldn't mind a roarin' discussion...
Position: God is imperfect because none of his actions can be described as such, and when "perfection," is used it is used definitionally, not descriptively.
(I know, it's weak, but can justify getting the ball rolling.)
Discussion of "perfect."
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Willum
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Discussion of "perfect."
Post #1I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.
You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.
To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight
You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.
To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight
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Willum
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Post #61
[Replying to post 57 by JLB32168]
No, because I have been reading the comments in the forum. Please do not make this personal, go back and read the comments before you accuse me of anything;
...What I am reading is that there is a confusion relativism and absolutism when you describe God's perfection...
No, because I have been reading the comments in the forum. Please do not make this personal, go back and read the comments before you accuse me of anything;
...What I am reading is that there is a confusion relativism and absolutism when you describe God's perfection...
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.
You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.
To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight
You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.
To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight
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JLB32168
Post #62
Do you care to define "Perfect"?Blastcat wrote: Oh, come on, riku, this is easy enough!
1. We can define "perfect" as which most resembles God.
2. God is which most resembles God.
3. THEREFORE, God is perfect.
DUH, DUH, DUH and double DUH.....
Once you have defined the term, can you name something that is perfect?
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Willum
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Post #63
[Replying to JLB32168]
We've been warned about this kind of argument:
The discussion is about God's perfection, asking about and picking apart a non-believer's definition is poor form.
If you can't provide a reasonable and working definition of prefect when used in God's context, well then, you can't really use God and perfect in the same sentence, can you?
We've been warned about this kind of argument:
The discussion is about God's perfection, asking about and picking apart a non-believer's definition is poor form.
If you can't provide a reasonable and working definition of prefect when used in God's context, well then, you can't really use God and perfect in the same sentence, can you?
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.
You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.
To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight
You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.
To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight
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JLB32168
Post #64
Your question asks how God is perfect. That’s a subjective value judgment so people need to come to an agreement on what qualifies as perfection so that there can’t be any equivocation on the term.Willum wrote:\We've been warned about this kind of argument: The discussion is about God's perfection, asking about and picking apart a non-believer's definition is poor form.
If we don’t establish what “perfect� means, then how can anyone argue that my statement “God is perfect� is wrong??Willum wrote:If you can't provide a reasonable and working definition of prefect when used in God's context, well then, you can't really use God and perfect in the same sentence, can you?
You said that “perfect� was being defined relatively – something you apparently think is invalid. What is “perfect� then in an absolute/objective sense? Once you’ve provided that then we can see if the burden of proof has been met or if your definition is actually absolute/objective. If it isn’t then you can’t say someone else’s view of perfect is wrong.
That’s why I think you’re avoiding defining the word.
Post #65
[Replying to JLB32168]
(QUESTION 1) " Do you care to define "Perfect"?
Dictionary definition: “Perfect� having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.
(QUESTION 2) "Once you have defined the term, can you name something that is perfect."
God (if an uncaused cause)
RESPONSES:JLB posted: Do you care to define "Perfect"?
Once you have defined the term, can you name something that is perfect?
(QUESTION 1) " Do you care to define "Perfect"?
Dictionary definition: “Perfect� having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.
(QUESTION 2) "Once you have defined the term, can you name something that is perfect."
God (if an uncaused cause)
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Willum
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Post #66
[Replying to polonius.advice]
So, now that you say God is perfect, how do you describe an imperfect Universe?
Or, if you say the Universe is perfect, but it is not perfect for men, at least everybody I know agrees, then what is the good of men invoking perfection as the term?
And so on, ad infinitum.
If you can't describe God or it's perfection, then can you use the term in anything other than relative sense?
And so on ad infinitum.
So, now that you say God is perfect, how do you describe an imperfect Universe?
Or, if you say the Universe is perfect, but it is not perfect for men, at least everybody I know agrees, then what is the good of men invoking perfection as the term?
And so on, ad infinitum.
If you can't describe God or it's perfection, then can you use the term in anything other than relative sense?
And so on ad infinitum.
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.
You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.
To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight
You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.
To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight
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Kenisaw
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Post #67
So now all you have to do is prove that your flavor of god exists. I can't wait to see your evidence...polonius.advice wrote: [Replying to JLB32168]
RESPONSES:JLB posted: Do you care to define "Perfect"?
Once you have defined the term, can you name something that is perfect?
(QUESTION 1) " Do you care to define "Perfect"?
Dictionary definition: “Perfect� having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.
(QUESTION 2) "Once you have defined the term, can you name something that is perfect."
God (if an uncaused cause)
