What If...?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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theStudent
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What If...?

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Post by theStudent »

Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.

During my research I discovered that lately, just over the last decade or so, a lot of informations has been surfacing about fake fossils.
In fact it has now become common place for fossils sold at museums to be checked for genuineness.
I find this interesting.

Why now, is this happening?
Could it be that evidence as it always does, is now surfacing?

For example
Remember the dinosaur hoax - the one that was said to be put together using different bones?
It has recently been found out that it wasn't a hoax after all.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/02/ ... ecies.html

That is quite interesting.

The fossils aren't the only things that were/are claimed to be fake.
There are the drawings, and pictures as well.
Right now, I am going through a very long document considered a case against some of Darwins picture illustrations.
But have you ever come across this one?

Pictures from the past powerfully shape current views of the world. In books, television programs, and websites, new images appear alongside others that have survived from decades ago. Among the most famous are drawings of embryos by the Darwinist Ernst Haeckel in which humans and other vertebrates begin identical, then diverge toward their adult forms. But these icons of evolution are notorious, too: soon after their publication in 1868, a colleague alleged fraud, and Haeckels many enemies have repeated the charge ever since. His embryos nevertheless became a textbook staple until, in 1997, a biologist accused him again, and creationist advocates of intelligent design forced his figures out. How could the most controversial pictures in the history of science have become some of the most widely seen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haec ... eks4-6.jpg
English: The pictures illustrate Ernst Haeckel's biogenetic law. In the beginning embryos of different species look remarkable similar, later different characteristics develop. The images initiated controversies and charges of fraud.

All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.

My question here, isn't whether he did lie or not, but rather, Does this not place evolutionists in the same position as the Christians they claim are believing in fables?

Consider:
Christians accept the Bible, as the word of God.
Here are just a few facts about the Bible.
With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time.
It has estimated annual sales of 100 million copies.
It has been a major influence on literature and history, especially in the West where the Gutenberg Bible was the first mass-printed book.
It was the first book ever printed using movable type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Archaeological findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, also called the Qumran Caves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The evidence is there however, that the book we hold in our hand today (the Bible), contains information written centuries ago.

Atheist call the book fables - the reason I have yet to find out.
Maybe one of the reasons is that they have not seen God, or seen him write any book - whatever.
So they claim that Christians' belief in them and what they present is blind faith, and belief in stories.

However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?


I'm just interested in you different opinions and thoughts, on the above.
Here is a nice short video of someone's opinion. Reasonable too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #351

Post by H.sapiens »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 340 by Goat]

Please,notice what I said.
Any process that is started can continue, as long as the one who started the process designed it that way.
Any
process that is started
can continue, as long as the one who started the process designed it that way.

No assumptions here.
This is a fact.
If I am a master at what I do, and I made something, and put the mechanism in place, to keep it running, that's what it will do, as long as I am aware of, and abide by all the laws required for my mechanism to work.
But then how do you account for the demonstrable fact that things adapt to changes in their environment and that the clear basis for such adaptation is over production combined with "errors" in the production process?

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Post #352

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 347 by theStudent]


"Where oh where can my baby be?"

- J. Frank Wilson & The Cavaliers
theStudent wrote:

Anything God starts, or does is perfect.
So, Adam and Eve are perfect? Satan is perfect? Everything always remains perfect?

theStudent wrote:Anything you can see, that is imperfect, cannot be proven to be his doing.
Not if you take as GIVEN that premise above. But where oh where have you FOUND the data concerning God's doing nothing but perfect things... in a book?


WHERE did you come up with THAT?

:)

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Post #353

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 343 by Blastcat]
What is illogical, is that you imagine that your god would have to copy modern manufacturing methods that HUMANS use to make their toys.
Every statement I make, you seem to think that I said God, somewhere in the statement.
Do you want to get to know him, that he seems to be always on your mind?
I said nothing about God here.
What is illogical is that just because you can IMAGINE something that you believe it must be the case.
That's the evolutionists who imagine evolution from common ancestor, and other speculative theories that they can't make up their mind which to keep - not me.
What is illogical is to take a very nonscientific book full of superstitions and magic as your guide to how the universe operates.
I agree.
That's why I don't swallow the superstitious, and magical theories found in science books.
What is illogical is to prefer a very bizarrely literal interpretation of what most normal people can all too easily see are allegories and myth over all the modern knowledge that we now have and tested repeatedly.
I would consider it illogical to accept myths that have been presented as evidence that a test was passed. Yes.
What is illogical is to single out one branch of science as just plain HORRIBLY BAD and accept the rest. What.. are biologists all STUPID or EVIL DEMONS hell bent on destroying the highly moral stance of some precious Christians?
No.
Of course not.
Haven't anyone show you the biologist, and other scientists who reject the scientific myths presented? Who's being illogical here?
What is illogical is your superstitious ALTERNATIVE to the theory of evolution.
It's the other way around.
It is illogical to reject the evidence of intelligent design, for a magic started process, which isn't even a process, but a theory of evolution.
That is more than illogical - it's called "closing ones eyes to the truth/reality".
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #354

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 344 by Kenisaw]
There are manufacturing processes that are designed to run continuously. That does not mean that they will continue to do so indefinitely, or even expected to continue indefinitely.
That's what you know.
Would you claim to be an expert on all the knowledge in existence?

I provided the link. Did you not see it?
Go back to Post 341 at the top of the page.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #355

Post by Kenisaw »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 340 by Goat]

Please,notice what I said.
Any process that is started can continue, as long as the one who started the process designed it that way.
Any
process that is started
can continue, as long as the one who started the process designed it that way.

No assumptions here.
This is a fact.
If I am a master at what I do, and I made something, and put the mechanism in place, to keep it running, that's what it will do, as long as I am aware of, and abide by all the laws required for my mechanism to work.
Ask any machinist that works at any plant that runs 24/7/365 if that process keeps running all the time. No matter what they do, it will stop at some point because of malfunction or disrepair. The fact that it was designed to run continuously doesn't mean it WILL run continuously...

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Post #356

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 346 by Blastcat]
Blastcat wrote:Can continue how long?
Did you come into the world, and find anything running, that's still running?
And do you think that by the time you die, it will still be running?
Blastcat wrote:For all eternity?.. you would have to be a MASTER master maker.
You are a fast learner.
I'm quite sure you did well in school.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #357

Post by Kenisaw »

theStudent wrote:
Willum wrote: [Replying to post 341 by theStudent]

So you are saying God is hands-on manufacturing every single cell in the world? Because that's what it would take for the process you are drawing analogy to... and so much for perfection, his manufacturing process is rife with errors.

So, I think it is pretty obvious, on both counts, the answer is 'no.' No process design, and no perfect process design.
Anything God starts, or does is perfect.
Anything you can see, that is imperfect, cannot be proven to be his doing.
Man is his doing. Man is imperfect. Your argument fails.

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Post #358

Post by Kenisaw »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 343 by Blastcat]
What is illogical, is that you imagine that your god would have to copy modern manufacturing methods that HUMANS use to make their toys.
Every statement I make, you seem to think that I said God, somewhere in the statement.
Do you want to get to know him, that he seems to be always on your mind?
I said nothing about God here.
What is illogical is that just because you can IMAGINE something that you believe it must be the case.
That's the evolutionists who imagine evolution from common ancestor, and other speculative theories that they can't make up their mind which to keep - not me.
If it was imagined it would not be based on evidence. Since it is based on a LOT of evidence, from several independent lines of research, to call it imagined is intellectually dishonest of you...
What is illogical is to take a very nonscientific book full of superstitions and magic as your guide to how the universe operates.
I agree.
That's why I don't swallow the superstitious, and magical theories found in science books.
Like quantum mechanics, and germ theory, and relativity? Are those magical and superstitious theories, Student?
What is illogical is to single out one branch of science as just plain HORRIBLY BAD and accept the rest. What.. are biologists all STUPID or EVIL DEMONS hell bent on destroying the highly moral stance of some precious Christians?
No.
Of course not.
Haven't anyone show you the biologist, and other scientists who reject the scientific myths presented? Who's being illogical here?
You mean your quotes from the 1% of the scientific community that don't agree with the scientific theory of evolution? Great, you've shown that not everyone agrees. Have you shown any evidence that shows the theory cannot be true? No. Have you given an alternate theory that explains all the data and evidence as well as the scientific theory of evolution (and you've been asked for one too)? No.
What is illogical is your superstitious ALTERNATIVE to the theory of evolution.
It's the other way around.
It is illogical to reject the evidence of intelligent design, for a magic started process, which isn't even a process, but a theory of evolution.
That is more than illogical - it's called "closing ones eyes to the truth/reality".
Where is the evidence for intelligent design, Student? How many times must you be asked to see your claimed empirical data? C'mon, trot it out for the world to see...

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Post #359

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 348 by H.sapiens]
H.sapiens wrote:But then how do you account for the demonstrable fact that things adapt to changes in their environment and that the clear basis for such adaptation is over production combined with "errors" in the production process?
Do you want the Biblical answer, or the scientific answer?
Here is one on science, I was able to pull up quickly, but I'll look for one or two more.
Why do we die?
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #360

Post by Kenisaw »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 344 by Kenisaw]
There are manufacturing processes that are designed to run continuously. That does not mean that they will continue to do so indefinitely, or even expected to continue indefinitely.
That's what you know.
Would you claim to be an expert on all the knowledge in existence?
No, but I happen to know a heck of a lot more about manufacturing processes and continuous processes than a lot of people.
I provided the link. Did you not see it?
Go back to Post 341 at the top of the page.
Yes I did. Here's the table of contents from the Wiki article:


Contents
1 Common processess
2 Semi-continuous processes
3 History
4 Shut-downs
4.1 Safety
5 Continuous processor (equipment)
6 References
7 Sources and further reading


Notice #4?

If I may, you would not have to endure moments such as this if you truly researched these things and be thorough in your research. It's obvious you didn't read the whole thing, and this appears to me to be common operating procedure for you, because this isn't the first time your own Wiki link contained information that contradicted the very claim you were trying to substantiate...

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