What If...?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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What If...?

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Post by theStudent »

Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.

During my research I discovered that lately, just over the last decade or so, a lot of informations has been surfacing about fake fossils.
In fact it has now become common place for fossils sold at museums to be checked for genuineness.
I find this interesting.

Why now, is this happening?
Could it be that evidence as it always does, is now surfacing?

For example
Remember the dinosaur hoax - the one that was said to be put together using different bones?
It has recently been found out that it wasn't a hoax after all.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/02/ ... ecies.html

That is quite interesting.

The fossils aren't the only things that were/are claimed to be fake.
There are the drawings, and pictures as well.
Right now, I am going through a very long document considered a case against some of Darwins picture illustrations.
But have you ever come across this one?

Pictures from the past powerfully shape current views of the world. In books, television programs, and websites, new images appear alongside others that have survived from decades ago. Among the most famous are drawings of embryos by the Darwinist Ernst Haeckel in which humans and other vertebrates begin identical, then diverge toward their adult forms. But these icons of evolution are notorious, too: soon after their publication in 1868, a colleague alleged fraud, and Haeckels many enemies have repeated the charge ever since. His embryos nevertheless became a textbook staple until, in 1997, a biologist accused him again, and creationist advocates of intelligent design forced his figures out. How could the most controversial pictures in the history of science have become some of the most widely seen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haec ... eks4-6.jpg
English: The pictures illustrate Ernst Haeckel's biogenetic law. In the beginning embryos of different species look remarkable similar, later different characteristics develop. The images initiated controversies and charges of fraud.

All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.

My question here, isn't whether he did lie or not, but rather, Does this not place evolutionists in the same position as the Christians they claim are believing in fables?

Consider:
Christians accept the Bible, as the word of God.
Here are just a few facts about the Bible.
With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time.
It has estimated annual sales of 100 million copies.
It has been a major influence on literature and history, especially in the West where the Gutenberg Bible was the first mass-printed book.
It was the first book ever printed using movable type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Archaeological findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, also called the Qumran Caves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The evidence is there however, that the book we hold in our hand today (the Bible), contains information written centuries ago.

Atheist call the book fables - the reason I have yet to find out.
Maybe one of the reasons is that they have not seen God, or seen him write any book - whatever.
So they claim that Christians' belief in them and what they present is blind faith, and belief in stories.

However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?


I'm just interested in you different opinions and thoughts, on the above.
Here is a nice short video of someone's opinion. Reasonable too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #361

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 350 by theStudent]

"I know you are, what am I?"
- schoolyard taunt
What is illogical, is that you imagine that your god would have to copy modern manufacturing methods that HUMANS use to make their toys.
theStudent wrote:Every statement I make, you seem to think that I said God, somewhere in the statement.
Do you want to get to know him, that he seems to be always on your mind?
I said nothing about God here.
WHAT then, ARE you talking about? Aliens from another dimension creating things? WHAT?

What on EARTH are you even talking about?


What is illogical is that just because you can IMAGINE something that you believe it must be the case.
theStudent wrote:That's the evolutionists who imagine evolution from common ancestor, and other speculative theories that they can't make up their mind which to keep - not me.
"Evolutionists"

Who are you TALKING about?

You believe that so many scientists and universities and so on doing research ARE ALL IDIOTS?.. or what.. fake, or worse EVIL little monsters?

Why do you imagine they just "IMAGINE"? All the really bad scientists join into the "evolutionists" club, cause they can't hack in REAL science, and the other REAL scientists let them get away with it?

WHATS GOING ON in science, do you imagine?

By "evolutionists" do you mean the kind of individual who knows more about the TOE than all of the forum members put together? THAT kind of "evolutionist"?

Do you mean an individual like Richard Dawkins who is an English ethologist, evolutionary biologist and author. He is an emeritus fellow of New College, Oxford, and was the University of Oxford's Professor for Public Understanding of Science from 1995 until 2008. Is it your contention that maybe OXFORD is a schlock school who just lets any old superstitious fool teach science?

You think that the UNIVERSE could come into being WITH A WORD... hocus pocus or whatever you imagine that word was... and THATS what you think is great science, but if you sit in a class at OXFORD about biology and how evolution works, that's SUPERSTITION?

[font=Comic Sans MS]Boy oh boy[/font], I'll tell ya, if there EVER was a case for me using my bizarre kind of silly formatting, this is IT.

What is illogical is to take a very nonscientific book full of superstitions and magic as your guide to how the universe operates.

theStudent wrote:I agree.
That's why I don't swallow the superstitious, and magical theories found in science books.


Wow.. non-skeptical about the Bible, and skeptical about ALL the scientific papers that support the theory of evolution. That's HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of papers, by THOUSANDS of really bad scientists, right?

WHATS GOING ON IN SCIENCE.. a global superstitious CHAOS.. or worse DEMONIC CONSPIRACY?

Creationism is almost TOO ridiculous to even talk about, BUT, so many people are REALLY into it, aren't they? Bashing the theory of evolution is almost TOO ridiculous to THINK about, but some of them wield a WHOLE LOT OF POWER and MONEY.

So, that religious propaganda sure has WINGS.

But this creationism nonsense is one of the UGLY aspects of Christianity and Islam. It wouldn't be SO bad if they kept their beliefs to themselves. Hey.. they can believe anything that they WANT.

But.. when they try to force that RELIGIOUS stuff down the throats of KIDS.. that's going WAY TOO FAR. Keep that kind of religious belief IN a religious location, like a CHURCH, and NOT in any publicly funded school.

What is illogical is to prefer a very bizarrely literal interpretation of what most normal people can all too easily see are allegories and myth over all the modern knowledge that we now have and tested repeatedly.

theStudent wrote:I would consider it illogical to accept myths that have been presented as evidence that a test was passed. Yes.


When I was talking about MYTHS, my friend, I wasn't talking about what science PRODUCES. You have a very WEIRD and myopic view of science if you think that it has ANYTHING to do with creating myth. BIZARRELY weird. But, unfortunately, the religious CREATIONISTS sure do have a lot of GOOD propaganda. Seems to be working on YOU.

But science?
That's just not serious. [

b]Religious beliefs are NOT science.


Creationism isn't science, and as SOON as you mention Creation.. you are talking GOD. Nobody is being fooled by your attempt to hide the nature of your GOD beliefs here. I suggest that you stop pretending to yourself, if you are.
What is illogical is to single out one branch of science as just plain HORRIBLY BAD and accept the rest. What.. are biologists all STUPID or EVIL DEMONS hell bent on destroying the highly moral stance of some precious Christians?
theStudent wrote:No.
Of course not.
Oh no?
Then how can you account for SO MANY THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of scientists BUYING into what you don't even CONSIDER science?

WHATS GOING ON
in your opinion?
theStudent wrote:Haven't anyone show you the biologist, and other scientists who reject the scientific myths presented? Who's being illogical here?
Creationists are.

Creationists who are PAYED by the Discovery Institute to prove the Christian GOD exists by way of SCIENCE. And... they haven't done it yet. THOUGH they do make extravagant claims. No Nobel prizes YET, though.

Those biologists are very FEW in number, and are probably working at places like the Discovery Institute ( WHICH IS A RELIGIOUSLY MOTIVATED ( and very rich ) INSTITUTION. Most people who will vouch "scientifically" for ID, as an example are ENGINEERS... kinda scientists, but nor RESEARCH scientists, and hardly a biologist in the lot. BUT... there is always the exception.

HOWEVER, we do NOT decide if an idea is worth MENTIONING by mere SCHOLARLY DEGREES. We DECIDE by way of SCIENCE.. peer review, that kind of thing. IDEAS win out BY THEIR MERITS, and not by a fallacious appeal to authority.

Creationism has a HORRIBLE track record for getting recognized by scientists.. how come.. that conspiracy again?
What is illogical is your superstitious ALTERNATIVE to the theory of evolution.
theStudent wrote:It's the other way around.
God creates Adam with some CLAY is scientific?... oh yeah, very scientific, Just as scientific as Eve being created from a RIB. ( I just wonder what kind of BBQ sauce God used )

( oops sorry, you aren't talking about God )

theStudent wrote:It is illogical to reject the evidence of intelligent design,
There is only OPINION that can ever be called "evidence" for intelligent design. The notion that ID is a science has been LAUGHED out of court .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmille ... l_District

A transcript of the judgement is HILARIOUS to read. The Discovery Institute was HUMILIATED, and completely ID, debunked as science.

But some people DO fall for religious propaganda. Good, simple to understand propaganda with a lot of money behind it REALLY works. Science is HARDER to understand, and it DOESN'T have a good propaganda machine, since they tend to spend all THEIR money on actual SCIENCE.
theStudent wrote:for a magic started process,
Nobody says that evolution started out by magic. The only MAGIC going around is the god magic ... in Genesis.. which is Creationism. To even MENTION the word "magic" in association with the TOE is to admit a PROFOUND ignorance of the theory.

And I have to say, that with MOST creationists, this is SADLY common. Get it as WRONG AS POSSIBLE, why don't you?

That's going to convince us, isn't it?

Here is a hint:

NO

theStudent wrote:which isn't even a process, but a theory of evolution
Nah, that's just wrong.

You would be hard pressed to BE more wrong than that.

Someone either gave you false information, or you misunderstand the TOE. I'm going to guess that someone gave you VERY false information. And that you don't understand what you would LIKE to criticize.

The theory of evolution describes a PROCESS.. a MECHANISM.. you don't even bother to know what you want to talk about.

And that just makes you WRONG as can BE.

Where do you GET this stuff?
theStudent wrote:That is more than illogical - it's called "closing ones eyes to the truth/reality".
You might have missed the part where I wrote that denying a HUGE amount of physical sciences is denial of reality. And in my view, completely illogical.

BUT.. if you want to KEEP your faith, closing your mind off is a good way, I suppose. So, if that's your goal, good job. As to convincing anyone else, well, you can always try to convince those who already believe.

Your discussion adds NOTHING to our understanding of the world. You have your HUGE skepticism and your HUGE belief in creation.

Well, bravo.

The best creationists can DO is ask "What if?"

But asking what if isn't any kind of evidence, sorry.
What if some Biblical story was true?.. yeah.. what if?

We have NO reason to think it is true.


:)

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Post #362

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 349 by Blastcat]
Blastcat wrote:So, Adam and Eve are perfect? Satan is perfect? Everything always remains perfect?
Please.
I said...
Anything God starts, or does is perfect.

starts
noun
  1. The beginning of anything
  2. The time when something begins
  3. A turn to be a starter (in a game at the beginning)
  4. A sudden involuntary movement
  5. The act of starting something
  6. A line indicating the location of the start of a race or a game
  7. A signal to begin (as in a race)
  8. The advantage gained by beginning early (as in a race)
verb
  1. Take the first step or steps in carrying out an action
  2. Set in motion, cause to start
  3. Head for somewhere else
  4. Have a beginning, in a temporal, spatial, or evaluative sense
  5. Bring into being
  6. Get off the ground
  7. Move suddenly, as if in surprise or alarm
  8. Get going or set in motion
  9. Begin or set in motion
  10. Begin work or acting in a certain capacity, office or job
  11. (sport) play in the starting lineup
  12. Have a beginning characterized in some specified way
  13. Begin an event that is implied and limited by the nature or inherent function of the direct object
What happens after something starts, can depend on a lot of circumstances. Agree?
Blastcat wrote:Not if you take as GIVEN that premise above. But where oh where have you FOUND the data concerning God's doing nothing but perfect things... in a book?


WHERE did you come up with THAT?
The book - the Bible, and the evidence around us harmonize into a completed picture.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #363

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 351 by theStudent]



There are manufacturing processes that are designed to run continuously. That does not mean that they will continue to do so indefinitely, or even expected to continue indefinitely.
theStudent wrote:That's what you know.
Good POINT..
I bet that what he just wrote IS what he knows!!!!

You got him on the ropes NOW...
theStudent wrote:Would you claim to be an expert on all the knowledge in existence?
WAIT:

I thought he WAS the expert on all the knowledge in existence.
How could I be so wrong?

:(

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Post #364

Post by theStudent »

Kenisaw wrote:
theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 340 by Goat]

Please,notice what I said.
Any process that is started can continue, as long as the one who started the process designed it that way.
Any
process that is started
can continue, as long as the one who started the process designed it that way.

No assumptions here.
This is a fact.
If I am a master at what I do, and I made something, and put the mechanism in place, to keep it running, that's what it will do, as long as I am aware of, and abide by all the laws required for my mechanism to work.
Ask any machinist that works at any plant that runs 24/7/365 if that process keeps running all the time. No matter what they do, it will stop at some point because of malfunction or disrepair. The fact that it was designed to run continuously doesn't mean it WILL run continuously...
Did you expect any different from our clumsy hands and minds?
How many mistakes do we make 24/7/365?
How many adjustments/corrections do we make 24/7/365?
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #365

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 352 by Kenisaw]

Sorry.
My mistake.

Any
process that is started by the perfect master worker
can continue, as long as the one who started the process designed it that way.

See what I mean by mistakes - and I can't even begin to count them.
That would be crazy.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #366

Post by theStudent »

Kenisaw wrote:
theStudent wrote:
Willum wrote: [Replying to post 341 by theStudent]

So you are saying God is hands-on manufacturing every single cell in the world? Because that's what it would take for the process you are drawing analogy to... and so much for perfection, his manufacturing process is rife with errors.

So, I think it is pretty obvious, on both counts, the answer is 'no.' No process design, and no perfect process design.
Anything God starts, or does is perfect.
Anything you can see, that is imperfect, cannot be proven to be his doing.
Man is his doing. Man is imperfect. Your argument fails.
Your argument is both illogical and unreasonable.

If you fathered a son, who grew up, and later became a rapist, are you responsible for his actions, if you tried to raise him to be a decent respectable individual?
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #367

Post by Kenisaw »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 349 by Blastcat]
Blastcat wrote:So, Adam and Eve are perfect? Satan is perfect? Everything always remains perfect?
Please.
I said...
Anything God starts, or does is perfect.
Yeah, like humans... O_o

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Post #368

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 359 by theStudent]


Blastcat wrote:So, Adam and Eve are perfect? Satan is perfect? Everything always remains perfect?
theStudent wrote:Please.
I said...
Anything God starts, or does is perfect.
Oh.. so, God doesn't have control at all on how LONG something stays perfect. Might be forever, or ten seconds. Is that right?

I wonder what you MEAN by "start" , though?
theStudent wrote:starts
noun
  1. The beginning of anything
  2. The time when something begins
  3. A turn to be a starter (in a game at the beginning)
  4. A sudden involuntary movement
  5. The act of starting something
  6. A line indicating the location of the start of a race or a game
  7. A signal to begin (as in a race)
  8. The advantage gained by beginning early (as in a race)
verb
  1. Take the first step or steps in carrying out an action
  2. Set in motion, cause to start
  3. Head for somewhere else
  4. Have a beginning, in a temporal, spatial, or evaluative sense
  5. Bring into being
  6. Get off the ground
  7. Move suddenly, as if in surprise or alarm
  8. Get going or set in motion
  9. Begin or set in motion
  10. Begin work or acting in a certain capacity, office or job
  11. (sport) play in the starting lineup
  12. Have a beginning characterized in some specified way
  13. Begin an event that is implied and limited by the nature or inherent function of the direct object
But what do you really mean by "start", though?
theStudent wrote:What happens after something starts, can depend on a lot of circumstances. Agree?
Agree full on agree, couldn't agree more.

Yeah, whatever God starts perfectly can end up being ... shall we say... a little SHY of perfect, correctomundo?

Not in GOD'S control all of that "after" part.. it's all a crap shoot once god has DONE doing the starting. Creates and crosses his godlike fingers, he does.

Maybe he prays to the REAL god.
Do you agree that is at least a POSSIBILITY?
Blastcat wrote:Not if you take as GIVEN that premise above. But where oh where have you FOUND the data concerning God's doing nothing but perfect things... in a book?


WHERE did you come up with THAT?
theStudent wrote:The book - the Bible, and the evidence around us harmonize into a completed picture.
OK, I understood what you meant by "The book - the Bible", but after that...

Er.. could you translate that into English for me? Right now, I have to guess.

So, if I DID guess correctly, you say you got your GOD info from:

1. A very SPECIAL book all about God info.
2. And everything that you believe confirms what you believe what the Good Book says.

Is that where you get those ideas from?
Sometimes, it's hard to keep up with full on Christian thinkers.

Just let me know if I got it straight.
Right now, I'm really only guessing at it, you know. *( I'm hoping my guess was bang on )

:)
Last edited by Blastcat on Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #369

Post by Kenisaw »

theStudent wrote:
Kenisaw wrote:
theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 340 by Goat]

Please,notice what I said.
Any process that is started can continue, as long as the one who started the process designed it that way.
Any
process that is started
can continue, as long as the one who started the process designed it that way.

No assumptions here.
This is a fact.
If I am a master at what I do, and I made something, and put the mechanism in place, to keep it running, that's what it will do, as long as I am aware of, and abide by all the laws required for my mechanism to work.
Ask any machinist that works at any plant that runs 24/7/365 if that process keeps running all the time. No matter what they do, it will stop at some point because of malfunction or disrepair. The fact that it was designed to run continuously doesn't mean it WILL run continuously...
Did you expect any different from our clumsy hands and minds?
How many mistakes do we make 24/7/365?
How many adjustments/corrections do we make 24/7/365?
Nothing in this universe can last forever. Entropy.

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Post #370

Post by Kenisaw »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 352 by Kenisaw]

Sorry.
My mistake.

Any
process that is started by the perfect master worker
can continue, as long as the one who started the process designed it that way.

See what I mean by mistakes - and I can't even begin to count them.
That would be crazy.
None of us is perfect.

So as I see it all you have to do now is prove that the perfect master worker exists. You might also want to explain how a perfect master worker made such an imperfect universe with so many imperfect things...

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