Prayer?

[Lionel20]

I haven't visited the site in awhile. I'm sure this topic has been discussed over and over. But I want to engage, re-engage the forum on the issue of prayer in the traditional sense.

I believe in prayer in a sense of communicating with God - the eternal force from which the fundamental forces of the universe derived.

But I struggle to understand the prayer in the traditional ecclesiastical sense. Is it redundant to pray as a loved one is being admitted into the hospital for surgery 'God guide the Surgeons hands. Or give my loved one a speedy recovery'. Does the employ a God who would otherwise be idle? Or what about the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6, "[May] God's will be on earth as it is in heaven?". What does this mean? And is this possible?

What about "I plead the blood of Jesus over my children's room tonight", does that ensure their safety? If Christians really believe that these prayers offer divine protection why do they purchase alarm systems? Why are many US Christians supportive of a Political Party that obsesses over the 2nd Amendment? The Catholic church in particular, from at least 300-400 AD has launched countless military campaigns in the name of Jesus - which seems a contradiction.

Does anyone really believe in conventional prayer?

[catnip]

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And we need not go on and on as the heathens do.

Interesting comment / claim.

Are those who "go on and on" praying for an ill person heathens?

Doing something "as" the heathens do is not to be a heathen. "As" used as an adverb is used in comparisons to refer to extent or degree of something.

My purpose is in quoting what Jesus supposedly said about how to pray in Matt 6. Is instruction of no count?

Perhaps the purpose of prayer has been miscast and people have false expectations.

[Zzyzx]

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Doing something "as" the heathens do is not to be a heathen.

Is this to say that Christians can act / pray / worship (or whatever) "as" heathens do and remain Christians?

Perhaps the purpose of prayer has been miscast and people have false expectations.

I certainly do not disagree with that suggestion.

[catnip]

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Doing something "as" the heathens do is not to be a heathen.

Is this to say that Christians can act / pray / worship (or whatever) "as" heathens do and remain Christians?

Early on the religion was adopted by the Romans, mostly Pagan. Syncretism began immediately. To the best of my knowledge, a pure version of Christianity does not exist in this world. There is not one book of the NT that we are certain was written by an original disciple/Apostle. Who is to say who is and isn't Christian?

I certainly do not disagree with that suggestion.

How we pray is basic faith formation. Any spiritual results that we would hope to attain would come through prayer. It seems obvious to me that his instructions should be followed to the letter.

[Claire Evans]

It's true. The disciples saw Him in a state, not when He was praying. However, the Gospel of Matthew goes on to say in Mark 14:51:

51 And a young man followed him, with nothing but ua linen cloth about his body. And they seized him."

You said they SAW him praying. They didn't. How could his prayer be reported, then? Of course he could have re-enacted the scenario for them when he rose from the dead.

As for the naked man, that introduces an entirely different theme.

And I corrected myself. So if one trusts that Jesus did pray to the Father in agony, then it must have been the naked man who told the disciples what happened.

[marco]

And I corrected myself. So if one trusts that Jesus did pray to the Father in agony, then it must have been the naked man who told the disciples what happened.

Yes, Claire, that's it. The naked man passed on the message. Did not Christ say: blessed are they that have not seen and yet believe?

Even more blessed are they who have not seen and yet report. But what's one fiction among many?

[Claire Evans]

And I corrected myself. So if one trusts that Jesus did pray to the Father in agony, then it must have been the naked man who told the disciples what happened.

Yes, Claire, that's it. The naked man passed on the message. Did not Christ say: blessed are they that have not seen and yet believe?

Even more blessed are they who have not seen and yet report. But what's one fiction among many?

That's unreasonable. Reporting on what Jesus did is not an act of faith. It's up to every individual whether they want to believe that or not.

[marco]

That's unreasonable. Reporting on what Jesus did is not an act of faith. It's up to every individual whether they want to believe that or not.

When we are asked to assess the truth of a statement we can surely enquire where the information came from. Christ, as I said, took his apostles, left them and endured his agony unwitnessed. Problem.
Christ went into the wilderness and we have his REPORTED conversations with Satan. Unwitnessed. Problem.

I see nothing unreasonable in my objections.

[Claire Evans]

That's unreasonable. Reporting on what Jesus did is not an act of faith. It's up to every individual whether they want to believe that or not.

When we are asked to assess the truth of a statement we can surely enquire where the information came from. Christ, as I said, took his apostles, left them and endured his agony unwitnessed. Problem.
Christ went into the wilderness and we have his REPORTED conversations with Satan. Unwitnessed. Problem.

I see nothing unreasonable in my objections.

As for the former, do we just disregard the naked man?

As for the latter, two things may have happened. Either Jesus told the disciples want happened or it didn't happen at all. I lean towards the latter. I have no doubt Jesus did wrestle with Satan but I don't particularly believe that story. It's symbolic. The forty days Jesus is said to have wondered the wilderness not eating corresponds with Moses fasting for 40 days according to the OT.

[Zzyzx]

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The forty days Jesus is said to have wondered the wilderness not eating corresponds with Moses fasting for 40 days according to the OT.

The Bible contains several instances of supposedly recording what people said and did when they were alone.

That is a literary style known as "omniscient narrator" -- the writer pretends to know what others think, say or do when alone with no observers. It is a writing style typically used by writers of fiction -- NOT by those writing literal accounts of events and conversations.

Regarding 40 days of fasting: Under some circumstances it is possible for people to live that long without eating -- particularly if they are overweight to begin. They cannot, however, go more than a very few days without liquids.

[Claire Evans]

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The forty days Jesus is said to have wondered the wilderness not eating corresponds with Moses fasting for 40 days according to the OT.

The Bible contains several instances of supposedly recording what people said and did when they were alone.

That is a literary style known as "omniscient narrator" -- the writer pretends to know what others think, say or do when alone with no observers. It is a writing style typically used by writers of fiction -- NOT by those writing literal accounts of events and conversations.


Regarding 40 days of fasting: Under some circumstances it is possible for people to live that long without eating -- particularly if they are overweight to begin. They cannot, however, go more than a very few days without liquids.

That's why I said I don't believe the 40 days in the wilderness story actually happened.

Yes, some people can live 40 days without eating but they aren't walking around wondering places like Jesus did according to that scripture.