Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

[Zzyzx]

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Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

All we “know� about the Satan character is from the POV of Bible writers – who claim that “he� is inferior to “God� (and presumably Jesus).

Since Bible writers and promoters have a vested interest in glorifying their favorite God(s) they could be expected to bad-mouth / demean / discredit the competition.

Since there is no assurance that there is only one “god� (or three-in-one for Christendom), the opposition might be one (or more) of the thousands of proposed gods. In fact, the only “evidence� for any of them consists of unverified tales, testimonials, conjectures, opinions, beliefs.

Thus, is there any sound reason that “Satan� could not be one of the other proposed gods and be equal in “power� to the Bible God?

“The Bible says� is NOT acceptable as proof of truth in this C&A sub-forum or in this thread.

Perhaps “Satan� isn't really the “bad guy� he is made out to be by promoters of the Bible God. Maybe “he� is another one of the “gods� and is equal to the Bible God and/or Jesus – and no more bad or good (or real or unreal) than they are.

It does not seem as though God and/or Jesus are able to defeat or eliminate Satan. Wonder why?

[Zzyzx]

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Remove the “FACT�? That has NOT been established as a fact.

You’re the one who wanted to discuss Satan and God. No one else would have said a word about these imaginary beings if you hadn’t brought them up.

Notice that I introduce a lot of topics and that they typically receive a lot of responses.

My topics might not be appropriate in Holy Huddle or Theology, Doctrine and Dogma sub-forums; however, I debate primarily in C&A and not the others.

Is my statement "That [your claim regarding Jesus] has not been established as a fact" correct or not?

You have a propensity to bring up topics ostensibly for the purpose of discussing those topics, only to gripe about how they don’t exist after someone entertains your question, which leaves one perplexed as to why you brought them up in the first place.

Correction: I do NOT say “they do not exist�. That would be a claim to know and be able to substantiate such a position. Instead, I correctly state that the various supernatural entities (thousands of them) have not been shown to be anything more than imaginary.

Astute readers can distinguish between the two.

“I want to discuss these things with you; however, whenever you bring them up, I’m going to tell you that the things we’re going to discuss don’t exist.�

See above

I am not bound to accept the Christian / Abrahamic religion position regarding gods or devils.

But you asked if Satan was a god. If you didn’t want an answer then why’d you ask the question?

I ask for an answer WITH verifiable evidence – not opinions and unverifiable ancient tales

Thus, God did not make everything in the universe.

God doesn’t exist, so the point is irrelevant and we shouldn’t be discussing it.

If we agree that God doesn't exist there is no need for discussion. However, it seems as though many who debate here (and the literature upon which they base their positions) contend that God does exist – and make claims to have knowledge of such supernatural entities.

I simply challenge those claims – which seems to irritate many people. Perhaps they are accustomed to environments in which they can pontificate about supernatural entities as though they knew such things – without being challenged.

Now . . . to the theist who believes that God exists, I would point out that God did indeed make everything;

Belief and unverified assumption noted.

however, death isn’t a thing.

Okay. By that same “reasoning� love isn't a thing, so God didn't create it. Right?

It occupies no space, has no mass, weight, and it cannot be measured; therefore, it isn’t an object that could have been made by anyone.

As one who does not drink the Kool Aid, I point out that there is no assurance that any of the thousands of “gods� worshiped, love, feared, hated, fought over are anything more than imagination.

If one claims that their favorite “god� created the universe and all it contains – and if it contains death – the “creator god� MUST have created death or it would not exist. An alternative for Apologists might be to claim that their “god� did not create death, and thus did not create the contents and conditions of the universe.

Another alternative is that the entire “creation� claim is poppycock.

Because something appears in NT stories is NOT assurance that it happened.

Your only source for Satan is the NT.

Correction: My source for STORIES about “Satan� is the Bible and its adherents. I do not claim to know about such things.

Now you’re casting aspersion upon your own source material.

Correction: I raise questions to illustrate that Bible stories and Christian beliefs cannot be shown to be based upon anything more that imagination and storytelling.

What are you trying to prove by attacking the one source upon which you’re building your argument?

See above

Your debate is making no sense.

Opinion noted. Readers will decide for themselves whose debate positions make sense.


If you are done complaining about my style of debate or choice of questions, lets get back to the OP – “Is 'Satan' actually a competing “god�? Notice that your post has not attempted to discuss that matter but was devoted to personal complaints. Try debating the issues.

[Peds nurse]

That's what I am talking about, Peds. The only evidence of any "Satan" or "God" or "Christ" or basically anything Christian is in the Bible. We are talking about stories in a book here.

I think that some Christians forget that we ARE just talking about story book characters, and NOT about any beings that we have ever proved to exist OUTSIDE of the book. So, without the authority of what the BIBLE says.... these guys evaporate into nothingness. I just don't take book characters are real without some kind of evidence. Without evidence that they guys ARE real, all we have here is "I think the Bible says this about that", in all the millions of variations. So, as an outsider to your faith, I just shrug. Ok, great, you think that the Bible says "THIS" about "THAT".

But I really have to ask...."SO WHAT"?
We think differently, we haven't proved anything, now, let's go for a soda.

Hello my friend, Blastcat!

This has to be one of my most favorite replies from you because you seem so genuine. I can work with genuine! Thanks Blastcat!

So, what separates the Bible, and its claims of Satan, to any other book that we believe is true? Are we not believing the claims that others have written? Have we witnessed any of those claims? Surely there has to be more than this reason.

If those who are witnesses on this Earth to God's love and character, does that account for something? People use character witnesses all the time for jobs, promotions, in a court of law, and even credit reports. They are all just documentations of our actions. We didn't write them, someone else compiled them about us, to be a witness for our name. How is the Bible any different?

I think I might be getting off topic...

Best wishes for a fabulous evening!

ps...can I have a diet soda?

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 42 by Peds nurse]

Hi PN -- it is always a pleasure to respond to your posts.

So, what separates the Bible, and its claims of Satan, to any other book that we believe is true?

PN, I have, or have access to, numerous books on geology by authors from all over the world. I accept (not “believe�), at least conditionally, that much of what they present is truthful and accurate. I allow that there may be errors, misconceptions, questionable conclusions, and need for improvement through further study and new information using new techniques and methods.

When they present information about the Rocky Mountains, for instance, I have personally studied on-site the geology of that region. I also have access to innumerable government and industry studies of the area.

What separates the Bible from that? It is a single book written by a small group of people promoting one of the many religions. None of its key claims and stories can be shown to be true and accurate (cannot be verified). So it is a matter of “take their word for it�.

Are we not believing the claims that others have written?

What I describe above is VERY different than just believing what a few people write that cannot be verified by anyone (myself or others).

Have we witnessed any of those claims? Surely there has to be more than this reason.

The critical question is “Can we verify what is said� – determine whether it is true and accurate or not. To me, if claims and statements cannot be verified (preferably by numerous disconnected sources) are just added to the pile of questionable claims and statements.

Of course, others see things differently and may believe (or accept) what they are told or what they read. However, the Internet and other sources of information are rife with rumors, urban legends, disinformation, propaganda, etc. A prudent person checks before accepting / believing.

If those who are witnesses on this Earth to God's love and character, does that account for something?

That is ONLY personal opinion and testimonial. Many of us do not trust such unverifiable sources.

People use character witnesses all the time for jobs, promotions, in a court of law, and even credit reports. They are all just documentations of our actions. We didn't write them, someone else compiled them about us, to be a witness for our name. How is the Bible any different?

Are character witness statements invariably true and accurate? Might they ever be “slanted� in favor of the subject person?

It is not unknown in the business world for a manager to write a glowing reference for a person they want to get rid of. It is also not unknown for such references to be complete fabrications. As a former employer I did not place great stock in character references. If the position was important I would contact the person whose name was shown as the reference – to learn a bit more about their insights. Even then, the new person was carefully observed during a trial / probation period until they proved their worth / merit.

[marco]

To get round the problem of God creating evil . . .

What is evil? Where is it located – since it’s a thing that was created and all?

You are being restrictive in your understanding of the word create.

There are volumes written on the problem of God and evil, so a few lines here won't refine what has been said. Epicurus wrote:



Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?


Of course, if, as you point out, we cannot tell where evil is or what it is, then we needn't trouble ourselves about its existence or God's, for that matter. There are some extremely clever people who regard the burning of infants in the Holocaust as evil. Given a tiger rips a lamb to pieces in nature, some say this is an indication of evil in the world. Or those mosquitoes that give us life-threatening illnesses might be called instances of evil in the world.

And the argument is, who introduced these mosquitoes that cause suffering? You will say that you don't know, 'cos you can't see evil. But again others will say that whoever introduced the mosquito, introduced evil. They will say that Satan is the embodiment of evil, and either he is co-existent with God (the sole point I was making) or God created him and so, by a deft turn of phrase, God created evil.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 42 by Peds nurse]

This has to be one of my most favorite replies from you because you seem so genuine. I can work with genuine! Thanks Blastcat!

Once we can fake being genuine, the rest is easy!

So, what separates the Bible, and its claims of Satan, to any other book that we believe is true? Are we not believing the claims that others have written?

I'm sorry to say that this seems to be the case. Christians seem to believe the claims that others have written. I say that's a huge problem.

Have we witnessed any of those claims?

We might witness the CLAIMS.. but not any facts in support of those claims.

Surely there has to be more than this reason.

Reasons to believe in things for which we don't have any evidence for other than the stories exist?... Yes, there are many, but none really pan out upon investigation.

If those who are witnesses on this Earth to God's love and character, does that account for something?

Not really, no.

What we can witness is that believers feel things and do things. Some good , some, not so good. Their feelings and actions do no imply that what they believe is true. And we all know that we don't need to believe in the Christian faith to be loving people. Not even close.

People use character witnesses all the time for jobs, promotions, in a court of law, and even credit reports.

Some people tend to believe too much. The word for that is "gullible". Just because someone tells us that the Bible is true... doesn't make it so. Sorry.

I don't see the point of being gullible. David Hannum is NOT famous for having said "There's a sucker born every minute". I don't see the point of NOT being skeptical of extravagant claims.

http://blogcritics.org/q-who-said-theres-a-sucker/

They are all just documentations of our actions. We didn't write them, someone else compiled them about us, to be a witness for our name. How is the Bible any different?

Just like most all other holy books, the crucial difference is that we cannot verify the claims in the Bible. We can't find out if they are true or NOT. All we have are the stories. You believe them... I am skeptical.

You might consider me WRONG to be skeptical, I consider your WRONG to be gullible. However, you are probably just as skeptical as me about any other holy book, and reserve your credulity for your own brand of religion.

I ask why we should believe yours and not theirs.

They are exactly the same kinds of books. Myths, metaphors, similes, anecdotes and hearsay. The Bible is just like all the rest, EXCEPT that Christians believe one, and not the others. Outsiders like me don't feel the need to protect one faith over another, even though, they are all the same, if based on faith.

[JLB32168]

Notice that I introduce a lot of topics and that they typically receive a lot of responses.

What informed your question on whether or not Satan was a god in competition with the Holy Trinity?

I ask for an answer WITH verifiable evidence – not opinions and unverifiable ancient tales.

Okay – so you asked for verifiable evidence. Do you have verifiable evidence that the writers of the Bible only wished to bad-mouth/demean/discredit the competition the Judeo-Christian deity?

However, it seems as though many who debate here (and the literature upon which they base their positions) contend that God does exist – and make claims to have knowledge of such supernatural entities.

Which do you wish to discuss – if Satan was a god that was bad mouthed by worshippers of the Judeo-Christian deity or if God exists? Pick one and stick with it.

Perhaps they are accustomed to environments in which they can pontificate about supernatural entities as though they knew such things – without being challenged.

Your OP says, “Thus, is there any sound reason that ‘Satan’ could not be one of the other proposed gods and be equal in ‘power’ [not sure why you’re using quotes here] to the Bible God?� Do you have a position germane to that actual question? Or do you just want to change the thread into another of 500+ threads that discuss essentially the same thing using the same unoriginal vocabulary?

Okay. By that same “reasoning� love isn't a thing, so God didn't create it. Right?

Correct – Love and Death aren’t things. They are abstract nouns used to describe the results of actions. They are only “made� in that we can see the results of people’s actions.

As one who does not drink the Kool Aid, I point out that there is no assurance that any of the thousands of “gods� worshiped, love, feared, hated, fought over are anything more than imagination.

That’s not the question before us. You changed it – most likely because it frustrates your attempt to fault God w/creating death.

If one claims that their favorite “god� created the universe and all it contains – and if it contains . . .

I’ll invite you to read my previous response.

My source for STORIES about “Satan� is the Bible and its adherents. I do not claim to know about such things.

Okay – so you cite certain sources to prove your point; however, your opposition cannot use your same sources to support their point. You want to apply a double standard. That way you have tailored the evidence to support your argument, which is the only criterion – sources that support Zz’s point are valid. Sources that don’t – or parts of the same sources that work against Zz’s point, are invalid. I understand.

I raise questions to illustrate that Bible stories and Christian beliefs cannot be shown to be based upon anything more that imagination and storytelling.

The question you raised on this thread asked if Satan was a god in competition with the Judeo-Christian deity. Now you’re changing the question (most likely because you can’t support your contention that Satan and God are equal belligerents in the Christian war of good and evil.)

Opinion noted. Readers will decide for themselves whose debate positions make sense.

I’m hoping they’ll see the lack of originality here, namely, the inability to ask a question and follow through by either winning or conceding the question.

[JLB32168]

You are being restrictive in your understanding of the word create.

I’m using the word as defined in Judeo-Christian theology. God makes things. He doesn’t create verbs/actions.

And the argument is, who introduced these mosquitoes that cause suffering?

Water causes suffering in some cases. Are you of the opinion that mosquitoes serve no purpose other than to spread disease?

But again others will say that whoever introduced the mosquito, introduced evil.

God introduced man into creation. Introduction of something doesn’t mean evil.

Of course, the theology of disease for example is that nothing was harmful until the Fall at which all things became corrupted. Mercury serves a purpose; however, if consumed in large amounts it becomes poisonous.

[Zzyzx]

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Notice that I introduce a lot of topics and that they typically receive a lot of responses.

What informed your question on whether or not Satan was a god in competition with the Holy Trinity?

Not your business and NOT a matter of debate.

I ask for an answer WITH verifiable evidence – not opinions and unverifiable ancient tales.

Okay – so you asked for verifiable evidence.

Agreed

Do you have verifiable evidence that the writers of the Bible only wished to bad-mouth/demean/discredit the competition the Judeo-Christian deity?

If I made that claim, which I have NOT, I would be expected to substantiate. I am NOT expected to defend a claim that YOU made up and projected onto me. Nice try – faceplant.

However, it seems as though many who debate here (and the literature upon which they base their positions) contend that God does exist – and make claims to have knowledge of such supernatural entities.

Which do you wish to discuss – if Satan was a god that was bad mouthed by worshippers of the Judeo-Christian deity or if God exists? Pick one and stick with it.

By what authority do you dictate how others may debate?

Perhaps they are accustomed to environments in which they can pontificate about supernatural entities as though they knew such things – without being challenged.

Your OP says, “Thus, is there any sound reason that ‘Satan’ could not be one of the other proposed gods and be equal in ‘power’ [not sure why you’re using quotes here] to the Bible God?� Do you have a position germane to that actual question? Or do you just want to change the thread into another of 500+ threads that discuss essentially the same thing using the same unoriginal vocabulary?

I ask for evidence to support claims made by others. I do not pretend to know about supernatural entities told about in imaginative stories by ancient writers – and promoted by modern worshipers. Other debaters do pretend knowledge. They are asked to demonstrate that their “knowledge� is anything more than overworked imagination.

Okay. By that same “reasoning� love isn't a thing, so God didn't create it. Right?

Correct – Love and Death aren’t things. They are abstract nouns used to describe the results of actions. They are only “made� in that we can see the results of people’s actions.

Thus, none of those “non-things� came from “God�. Right? Thus, a god makes a universe and all it contains BUT did not make part of it (or, in other words, some of what is contained was not made by the creator god – that made the whole works).

As one who does not drink the Kool Aid, I point out that there is no assurance that any of the thousands of “gods� worshiped, love, feared, hated, fought over are anything more than imagination.

That’s not the question before us. You changed it – most likely because it frustrates your attempt to fault God w/creating death.

The OP question remains “Is 'Satan' actually a competing god'�?

Who brought up “Yes, I suppose that if you remove the fact that his raison d'être was to retain the power of death over creation while plotting to kill the most virtuous human that ever lived, and who taught others to live likewise, then Satan could actually look very heroic.� and “God didn’t make death any more than God made 'run' or 'walk' or 'eat'�in post #23?

My source for STORIES about “Satan� is the Bible and its adherents. I do not claim to know about such things.

Okay – so you cite certain sources to prove your point; however, your opposition cannot use your same sources to support their point. You want to apply a double standard.

Anyone can cite what the Bible says. None of us can use what the bible says as authoritative or proof of truth.

We debate on a level playing field here – much to the chagrin of those accustomed to having a preferred position in church or believer environments.

That way you have tailored the evidence to support your argument, which is the only criterion – sources that support Zz’s point are valid. Sources that don’t – or parts of the same sources that work against Zz’s point, are invalid. I understand.

Would it be possible to stop complaining and actually debate the question “Is 'Satan' actually a competing 'god'?

I raise questions to illustrate that Bible stories and Christian beliefs cannot be shown to be based upon anything more that imagination and storytelling.

The question you raised on this thread asked if Satan was a god in competition with the Judeo-Christian deity. Now you’re changing the question (most likely because you can’t support your contention that Satan and God are equal belligerents in the Christian war of good and evil.)

Correction: The question remains “Is 'Satan' actually a competing 'god'?

The fact that I raise questions which “illustrate that Bible stories and Christian beliefs cannot be shown to be based upon anything more that imagination and storytelling� does NOT change the question.

Opinion noted. Readers will decide for themselves whose debate positions make sense.

I’m hoping they’ll see the lack of originality here, namely, the inability to ask a question and follow through by either winning or conceding the question.

I trust that this thread illustrates to readers that Apologists CANNOT offer evidence to show that “Satan� isn't a competing “god�. That is the point.

[JLB32168]

Not your business and NOT a matter of debate.

Let me clarify because it is a matter of debate. What have you used to arrive at the conclusion that Satan might be a god?

Agreed.

Is there any verifiable evidence that Satan might be a god? After all, you’re the one who brought him up in the first place.

If I made that claim, which I have NOT, I would be expected to substantiate. I am NOT expected to defend a claim that YOU made up and projected onto me. Nice try – faceplant.

Were you not suggesting that the writers of the Bible only wished to bad-mouth/demean/discredit the competition the Judeo-Christian deity? Where else would the question have arisen?

By what authority do you dictate how others may debate?

It’s called “Addressing the topic introduced in the thread name,� namely “Is ‘Satan’ actually a competing ‘god’.� (Still not sure why you’re using quotation marks since when anyone else refers to the god Zeus they don’t place the word god in quotes.)

I ask for evidence to support claims made by others.

Are you making a claim in the title of a thread that you started when you titled it “Is ‘Satan’ actually a competing ‘god’?�

Thus, none of those “non-things� came from “God�. Right?

Not that it’s related to the title of the thread or your OP but since God loves and we are created in his image and likeness then yes the desire to love comes from God – for those that believe in things like gods.

Thus, a god makes a universe and all it contains BUT did not make part of it (or, in other words, some of what is contained was not made by the creator god – that made the whole works).

God mae the universe. God did not make actions since they cannot be made.

Do you make “eat� or do you just eat?

The OP question remains “Is 'Satan' actually a competing god'�?

Indeed? [Guffaw!] That you feel at ease reminding me of the topic of the thread is just uproarious.

Anyone can cite what the Bible says. None of us can use what the bible says as authoritative or proof of truth.

But you can discuss what the text says w/o admitting it is true - just like I can debate the morality of the Valkries w/o discussing their existence or lack thereof. Or at least I’m able to do those things w/o changing the topic to “Oh yeah – well the stupid Valkries don’t even exist.�

Would it be possible to stop complaining and actually debate the question “Is 'Satan' actually a competing 'god'?

Just curious, how is one supposed to answer this question? What sort of evidence can one use to answer it?

The question remains “Is 'Satan' actually a competing 'god'?

And when I cited the same text you used – because you had to use that text to even form a question about Satan – you said that the text was bunk, which moved me to ask “Why did you ask the stupid question about Satan if the source material is bunk in your eyes?�

I trust that this thread illustrates to readers that Apologists CANNOT offer evidence to show that “Satan� isn't a competing “god�. That is the point.

You’ve not offered evidence that show Satan is one either. You bear the equal burden of proof since you’re making the assertion.

[benchwarmer]

Okay. By that same “reasoning� love isn't a thing, so God didn't create it. Right?

Correct – Love and Death aren’t things. They are abstract nouns used to describe the results of actions. They are only “made� in that we can see the results of people’s actions.

Sorry to jump in the middle of this (apparently that's my thing), but God created a covenant of love so are you suggesting He created a covenant of something He didn't also create?

From biblegateway.com (NIV)

Deuteronomy 7

9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.