Belief in existence of God scientific. Denial - unscientific

[theStudent]

The length of the thread, in the link below, is largely due to repeated questions.on the contained information. The following is open for debate.
Belief in the existence of God is scientific. Denial - unscientific.

For those who disagree with the above, please state why, and/or provide evidence for the following:

• God does not exist.
• God exists only in the mind of the believer.
• Miracles do not happen.
• The Bible is a book of myths.

[benchwarmer]

Fine, then prove that "gravity" exists, scientifically I mean?

Easy enough, get three heavy lead balls and mount two on the ends of a bar, then balance the bar by hanging it from a fishing line. Wait until the hanging balls settle down and stop moving. Move the last lead ball close to one of them without touching. Observe the twisting movement of the hanging apparatus.

Gravity?
The existence of tides is often taken as a proof of gravity, but this is logically flawed. Because if the moon's "gravity" were responsible for a bulge underneath it, then how can anyone explain a high tide on the opposite side of the earth at the same time?

With simple science, the tide near side is caused by the moon pulling on water, the tide far side is caused by gravity from the moon being weaker due to the extra distance. That's why one tile is higher than the other one in the same day.

Great responses Bust Nak, I just want to expand on this one point because I'm not sure you answered the question fully.

Taken from http://www.moonconnection.com/tides.phtml

However, the Moon's gravitational forces are strong enough to disrupt this balance by accelerating the water towards the Moon. This causes the water to 'bulge.' As the Moon orbits our planet and as the Earth rotates, the bulge also moves. The areas of the Earth where the bulging occurs experience high tide, and the other areas are subject to a low tide.

Water on the opposite side of Earth facing away from the Moon also bulges outward (high tide), but for a different and interesting reason: in reality, the Moon and the Earth revolve together around a common gravitational center between them, or center of mass. Here's a rough but helpful analogy: picture yourself swinging a heavy object attached to a rope around your body as you rotate. You have to lean back to compensate, which puts the center of mass between you and the object. With the Earth-Moon system, gravity is like a rope that pulls or keeps the two bodies together, and centrifugal force is what keeps them apart. Because the centrifugal force is greater than the Moon's gravitational pull, ocean water on the opposite side of the Earth bulges outward.

We now await the same type of scientific explanation for God.

[RonE]

[Replying to post 111 by theStudent]

When I was reading your last reply to my earlier posts it was obvious that you were still trying to twist science into your own meanings & means as witnessed by your new manifesto linked to in the OP.

In this and other postings you have, and continue, to make claims of your god. Your god is supposed to have supernatural powers. He/she/it is supposed to be the creator of the universe. Supposed to be the intelligence behind "intelligent design". Since YOU make these claims I am challenging you to provide evidence, scientifically credible evidence, of your god. The rules of this forum state that you must provide evidence of your claims.

I tried to get you to clarify your previously stated beliefs in my current post #39:

I have challenged you several times to provide evidence of your god.
Maybe I have misunderstood you:
1) Do you claim that god exists?
2) Do you claim that your god is the intelligence behind ID?

Since your answer to this was evasive I must assume your views haven't changed so I feel justified in repeating my challenge. This is the same challenge that I made in your, now abandoned, topic "What does intelligent design prove?". That challenge goes unanswered. Just for the record here's that post:

[Replying to post 95 (in What does intelligent design prove?) by theStudent]

You made an extraordinary claim of intelligent design, with your god as the creator, your god who supposedly has supernatural powers, another extraordinary claim. I asked you to provide evidence that your creator exists.
You've claimed him to have supernatural powers. That the claim is to supernatural powers doesn't excuse your inability to provide the evidence. You must either provide the evidence or retract both claims.

I fully understand if this post escaped your attention before, but I am by this post repeating my challenge, either prove your god claims or withdraw your claims.

[Clownboat]

My own experience showed me too, as it is written in the same Bible, that he uses his power to prevent those who do not value it, but search it with a view to finding fault with it, from understanding it.

Then your own experience is wrong. As a born again spirit filled Christian for 20 years, brought up in a Christian home, I was not trying to find fault with the Bible.
In fact, I tried extremely hard to maintain my beliefs, not to find fault with the Bible. This goes against your un-evidenced and empty claim.

Therefore it is not accurate from my life experiences that there is a Bible god concept out there preventing people from understanding the Bible.

What you suggest is asinine anyways IMO unless you can point to a mechanism that would allow you to read words and understand them, but the person next to you lacks this mechanism to understand these specific written words.

I suggest you are now in a similar boat that I was once in. Look at how bad you want to maintain your beliefs! You are willing to believe that un-believers magically cannot read words and understand them. These odd pronouncements may get tiring soon for you and you will be forced to face why you must keep making them in order to justify your belief in a god concept.

Until then... praise the lord and his wonderful make people not understand his message ways.
Good thing you can read gud!

[Clownboat]

Word, .. He created the universe from His Word, .. that's what I see and understand from the Bible.

Readers, does it make any sense to claim that a god concept can create universes with words, but when it comes to killing off an entire planet (save 8) for example, he uses a flood for which there is no evidence for?

Universes with words, but gotta get rid of the sin from Adam and Eve, gotta have me some blood shed.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 106:


Slight format change for ease of reading...

I think one thing we need to do is remember what we are.
I think most humans tend to forget that they are just that - humans.
As soon as they get a bit of knowledge, they think they are above the stars, and moon.

I think thats the biggest problem in the world - lack of humility - pride.
I mean, what do we know?

So?

All you're doing is placing your belief "above" the stars and moon.

We can detect a great many things that are not just concepts.
When the first airplane was built...

My point remains. Various theists have claimed various properties for their gods, yet none can show that god possesses such properties.

People say religious people have a preconceived ideas. I think however, that pretty much can be said of those who deny God. Would you agree?

Lacking specifics, I can agree.

Again, so what?

I reject any implication I can't change my position based on a prior position.

I wasn't indicating that they are referring to a god of religion.
Just pointing to the fact that God is in use quite regularly.

So's beer. What's your point?

No. I was just showing that the more scientists discover, the more they realize the little they know, because they always need to be adjusting what they thought they knew.
Hope I haven't confused you with that.

Sure scientists update their thinking.

They allow their "preconceived notions" to be changed upon better data.

What of religious texts that haven't changed in thousands of years?

Let me just use an example.
Say you encountered someone from a different country, who never saw a Living Rock Cactus, and you say, "We here have a living rock cactus that grows like a flower on the ground."
Would you say that your words are just a concept, because the person has never seen a Living Rock Cactus?

We can find such cacti, photograph 'em, and hope folks don't think we doctored the picture.

Where can God be found?

But what if in reality, you are Teddy Roosevelt?
Notice I said
"if that possibility is a reality, then it is more than a concept."

If is itself a possibility - where possibility is not fact.

I notice many theists love to "if" 'em a god into debate.

I'm just showing you that the existence of a superhuman performing miracles, is not far fetched.

You just can't show us a god has performed such feats.

Where does a rainbow end?

Where does God begin?

Do you propose that poking a stick in the ground can change the color or pattern of animal offspring?

Thee question I would ask is, is the poking of the stick, causing the change?

If you're unwilling to defend biblical claims, I understand.

Do you propose we can snuggle up inside a whale for three days, and survive?

Yes. So long as the one keeping you there doesn't "release" you.

I'll give all y'all a spell to let that'n sink in.

What evidence can you now present for us to consider regarding the existence of your proposed god?

You have it all. Why do you keep asking?
Why not just say like I do, when they tell me they have evidence that the evolution theory is true, "I don't see it." End of story.
...

'Cause my eyes function.

I can only conclude you'll not be forthcoming with evidence here, and can further conclude it's 'cause you ain't gotcha none.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 134 by Clownboat]

Word, .. He created the universe from His Word, .. that's what I see and understand from the Bible.

Readers, does it make any sense to claim that a god concept can create universes with words, but when it comes to killing off an entire planet (save 8) for example, he uses a flood for which there is no evidence for?

Universes with words, but gotta get rid of the sin from Adam and Eve, gotta have me some blood shed.

Well, I think that TECHNICALLY, when we drown, there isn't necessarily any bloodshed.

Therefore, God exists.

[RonE]

[Replying to post 134 by Clownboat]

Word, .. He created the universe from His Word, .. that's what I see and understand from the Bible.

Readers, does it make any sense to claim that a god concept can create universes with words, but when it comes to killing off an entire planet (save 8) for example, he uses a flood for which there is no evidence for?

Universes with words, but gotta get rid of the sin from Adam and Eve, gotta have me some blood shed.

Of course not, but then he hasn't provided any evidence that his god exists, see my last post. So we shouldn't believe in any of it. For purpose of debate we certainly shouldn't let him skate with his claims/assumption of his god.

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 116 by Divine Insight]

My argument holds more "water" than you can imagine.

First, I am saying that you cannot apply mathematics to the situation of God and the Bible. Otherwise your logic doesn't stand. The numbers show that.
Secondly, the law of contradiction is the second law of thought - law of non-contradiction which says, A cannot be, and yet not be. If something exists, it can't not exist.
So I don't see how you arrive at A not existing with you personal idea.
Thirdly, the fact that so many people believe in a god, wheter it be Allah, Buddha, or who, suggests that a god/gods must exist.
Hence, according to the first law of thought - the law of identity - A is A, and the third law of thought - the law of excluded middle says, A must either be, or not be, the conclusion must be God exists.

Last but not least, you are again mistaken, because Christians use the most logic, in fact the only logical, and sensible conclusion.
They logically and sensibly reason:
When crossing a barren desert, if you came to a beautiful house, well equipped in every way and stocked with food, would you believe that it got there by some chance explosion?
Of course not! You would realize that someone with considerable wisdom built it.

Well, scientists have not found life on any of the planets of our solar system except the earth; available evidence indicates that the others are barren.
Concerning planet earth, the book The Earth says,

the wonder of the universe, a unique sphere.

(New York, 1963, Arthur Beiser, p. 10)
It is at just the right distance from the sun for human life, and it moves at just the right speed to be held in orbit.
The atmosphere, of a kind found only around the earth, is made up of just the right proportion of gases to sustain life.
Marvelously, light from the sun, carbon dioxide from the air, and water and minerals from fertile soil combine to produce food for earth’s inhabitants.

Did it all come about as a result of some uncontrolled explosion in space?
Science News admits:

It seems as if such particular and precise conditions could hardly have arisen at random.

(August 24 and 31, 1974, p. 124)
The logic presented in the Bible is reasonable.

Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but he that constructed all things is God.

Someone with considerable wisdom was responsible for the livable planet.

Logically, the evidence lends to the fact that God exists.
So it would seem, to the contrary, your argument is an empty well.

Furthermore, the Bible has passed the test of Primary and Secondary Source Verification.
Factual evidence that God exists.

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 118 by Divine Insight]

But you had requested earlier for examples where God violates his own laws.

If by God's laws it's immoral to kill someone without good reason then this must apply to God as well, otherwise he would be in violation of his own moral codes.

When you say that this God is the life giver and therefore has the right to take a life, this could work in the case of Zeus where Zeus is not proclaimed to be righteous and just. However, this line of argument doesn't hold for the Biblical God. If the Biblical God claims to be righteous and just then he must abide by his own moral standards. Otherwise he wouldn't be righteous and just by his own standards.

So your argument here doesn't hold for the Biblical God. It would only hold for a God like Zeus who doesn't promise to be righteous and just.

To say that the life-giver, also has the right to take life, is a fact, not a violation of a principle.
If Zeus really is a life-giver, then that fact would apply to him.
However, evidence presents Zeus, not as a real, true and living god, but a false deity.
According to the Greek historian Herodotus, the Persians also worshiped the natural elements and heavenly bodies.

As to the usages of the Persians, I know them to be these. It is not their custom to make and set up statues and temples and altars, but those who make such they deem foolish, as I suppose, because they never believed the gods, as do the Greeks, to be in the likeness of men; but they call the whole circle of heaven Zeus, and to him they offer sacrifice on the highest peaks of the mountains; they sacrifice also to the sun and moon and earth and fire and water and winds. These are the only gods to whom they have ever sacrificed from the beginning; they have learnt later, to sacrifice to the ‘heavenly’ Aphrodite, from the Assyrians and Arabians. She is called by the Assyrians Mylitta, by the Arabians Alilat, by the Persians Mitra.

However, the true and living God, as I said before, has not violated any moral principle.
Besides that, no human alive at that time was free of the wages/penalty of sin, passed on to them by their forefather Adam.

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 120 by help3434]

Thank you.

My point had to do with what was required to be considered a Christian in the Bible, as outlined by Christ.
It was through Jesus that Christianity was formed, whether he was on earth or heaven.
Jesus taught the way that led to Christianity, and it was through him that Christianity was formed, as the scripture you quoted reveals..
So Jesus was very much involved in the Christianity of the Bible.