Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

[Elijah John]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

I would like to emphasis, at the onset, that my real goal and motive has always been finding the truth.

And I can respect that. If there was anything I said you that struck you as disrespectful I apologize and I do respect your sincerity, which is why I too would be interested in your detailed and scripture base responses to all the points raised in post 17 writen by tigger2.

In the meantime I wish you a most excellent week.

JW

[E.G]

[Replying to tigger2]

Most scientists, researchers or truth seekers, anywhere in the world would never develop a credible theory or come to an intelligent conclusion relying only on one source of information.

Secondly, this very long article http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... art-1.html is written by one source, the Watchtower Society (WTS) and revolves around “Trinitarian/of or relating to belief in the doctrine of the Trinity� Now, if you had the opportunity to read my comments on this subject under the title, “Why should anyone believe and practice Christianity? (post 5) in section “Christianity and Apologetics�, you would see that I do not agree with the interpretation.

I also think that the problem surrounding the concept of "the Trinity" has a great deal to do with some languages that do not have the words that can convey the exact meaning of the original language. This challenge is combined with a lack of knowledge about the culture of the area where Lord Christ was born and lived.
Here is what I wrote in post 5 in section “Christianity and Apologetics.

“First, I would like to tell you that I sympathize with everyone who is struggling with the “Trinity� concept. This word is not in the Bible. Other things have contributed to making this subject more difficult to understand is the translation into English. If you examine the original language, there is no reference to God or Lord Christ or the Holy Spirit as a “separate person�.

While we are discussing here the nature of God, which is safe to say, that is way beyond our ability to grasp, the Bible has simplified it for us in 1Timothy 3:16, “great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit,…� Here you can see a simple explanation: God who is capable of doing anything, decided at one point in history to appear in a form of a man.

In addition and to confirm this fact, we read in 2 John 1:7 "For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

Let me repeat one more time what I said in my post relevant to this point (for the sake of clarity and connecting the dots).

In the original language and the culture of the lands during Lord Christ's time on earth, (where I had lived for many years and learned the language and understood the culture), the word son is also used to imply that a person carries and reflects the same characteristics and attributes of a relevant reference used in the sentence.

Now, you can see the weakness of relying only on one source of information "the Watchtower Society (WTS)" and missing an opportunity to broaden your thinking horizon and examine the subject from different angels, using also knowledge coming from the original languages.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 19 by E.G]



"2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. "

This is interesting.
'Jesus Christ coming in the flesh' as to imply that he was not in the flesh before?

I agree with much what E.G says. Also it matters what we belieeve and it also matters why we reject other things. Amongst many Jesus is dispised - just as he was 2000 ys ago; Jewish greeting - 'may his Name be forgotten.' Why are some so-called Christians determined to depose Him, what is really behind it? They claim to respect and honor him but turn him into a lier at the same time.
I came from the father, how much plainer can it be?

Like to add that King James version was long before JW and Mormons and many others sects with thier translations.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 19 by E.G]



"2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. "

This is interesting.
'Jesus Christ coming in the flesh' as to imply that he was not in the flesh before?

No, that line was written to combat the heresy going around at the time that Christ was pure Spirit, and never appeared in the flesh, but only as a Spirit.
Notice there is no verse calling those who do not confess Jesus Christ as "God" deceivers or antichrist. That is because no one at the time was calling Jesus "God" not even John or Paul. (they stopped just short of that). There is no evidence that the historical Jesus ever called himself "God" either.

Amongst many Jesus is dispised - just as he was 2000 ys ago; Jewish greeting - 'may his Name be forgotten.' Why are some so-called Christians determined to depose Him, what is really behind it?

And yet, many Christians blot out the name of God using euphemisms such as "LORD", instead of "Jehovah", or call Jesus "God" when YHVH (the Father) alone is God, according to Isaiah and others.

Do such Christians then "despise" the Father?

They claim to respect and honor him but turn him into a lier at the same time.
I came from the father, how much plainer can it be?

We all came from the Father, made in His image. That is plain from Genesis.

Additionally, every prophet "came from" the Father, was sent by the Father, was commissioned by the Father or one of the Father's angels. That is what is plain to me, and more than a few others...even beyond the JW organization.

And this is addressed to E.G. too. How does one honor Jesus, by worshiping him and making an idol out of him or hearing and heeding his message to worship God alone?

As in:

Worship YHVH your God, and serve only him.

Jehovah's Witnesses, honor and worship God by name and honor Jesus by hearing and heeding him who said "hallowed be thy(the Father) name, not "hallowed the name of Jesus", nor did he say: "hallowed be name of the Father with the Son".

Jesus didn't even teach folks to pray "in Jesus name", but only in the Father's name, the only name that is alluded to in the Lord's prayer.

A completely Jewish prayer, from a completely Jewish Jesus.

Jehovah's Witnesses are no less Christian than you or I, and arguably maybe even more so.

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 22 by E.G]

E.G., It appears that you didn't even read the introductory note to my "I Am" study, let alone the actual sources I used (Trinitarian)!

I thought you were interested in finding the truth!

Perhaps if you skip down to part 3 ("I Am" in Ex. 3:14) and merely point out every provable error I have made, it might be easier.

Or go to the John 1:1 link (seven lessons) and point out every error I (and the Trinitarian scholars I quote) have made. I will gladly explain any terminology that you may be unfamiliar with.

[onewithhim]

Onewithhim wrote:

And "the great I Am" has been thoroughly explained to show that Jesus was not quoting Exodus 3:14. If you want, I can explain it once again.

Elijah John replied:

I agree with you here, but would love to hear your refutation...to save you the trouble of explaining it once again, would you mind posting a link or a post # reference?

………………….
My studies from my blog:

I Am
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... t-1.html

1 Tim. 3:16
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... kjv.html

John 1:1c
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... c-a.html

Studies from my research:

"Various English Translations That Recognize Jesus Did Not Say 'I Am'":

http://robertangle.com/ruminations/2012 ... m/#respond

"John 8:58--A Claim of Pre-existence OR an Admission of Being Almighty God?":

http://robertangle.com/ruminations/2012 ... d/#respond

[onewithhim]

Onewithhim wrote:

And "the great I Am" has been thoroughly explained to show that Jesus was not quoting Exodus 3:14. If you want, I can explain it once again.

Elijah John replied:

I agree with you here, but would love to hear your refutation...to save you the trouble of explaining it once again, would you mind posting a link or a post # reference?

………………….
My studies from my blog:


1 Tim. 3:16
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... kjv.html

John 1:1c
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... c-a.html

Further studies I have made concerning the directly above scriptures:

I Timothy 3:16:
http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospe ... m3_16.html

http://www.blueletterbible.org/niv/1ti/3/1/s_1122001


John 1:1:
http://www.nwtandcoptic.blogspot.com/20 ... s-ago.html

http://www.defendingthenwt.blogspot.com ... 9/nwt.html



I think readers of the Bible will find these websites interesting.

[/b]

[Saved75]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

People use the terminology "Christian", But according to the Bible, not every born again believer is a Biblical Christian, Never mind the JWs Catholics and other false religions.
And the reason is, It was the people who saw the disciples acting just like Jesus and doing healings and miracles, That made them call the disciples "Christians".
Acts 11: 20--26.
The Bible tells us that The gospel is preached with Mighty signs and wonders, by the power of God, Rom 15: 19. Mk 16: 17--20. Hen 2: 3--4.

[Elijah John]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

People use the terminology "Christian", But according to the Bible, not every born again believer is a Biblical Christian, Never mind the JWs Catholics and other false religions.
And the reason is, It was the people who saw the disciples acting just like Jesus and doing healings and miracles, That made them call the disciples "Christians".
Acts 11: 20--26.
The Bible tells us that The gospel is preached with Mighty signs and wonders, by the power of God, Rom 15: 19. Mk 16: 17--20. Hen 2: 3--4.

OK, so...

-What is the difference between a "born-again believer" and a "Biblical Christian"?
Sounds to me like an arbitrary dictinction. Please clarify.

-If Jehovah's Witnesses, and Roman Catholicism are "false religions" what is the "true" religion/denomination? Both sects honor God through Jesus, why would either be "false"?

-Doing healings, miracles, signs and wonders is the Biblical sign of a true Christian? So..unless one: a) does healings, b) walks on water, c) raises the dead, d) drinks poison safely, e) handles snakes....they are NOT Christian?

How 'bout you, do you do any or all of these things?

How 'bout these things instead: forgiving others, being a good example to others, giving to charity, giving people hope, being a peacemaker, lifting people's spirits...aren't these signs of a true Christian?

If that is the case, I'm certain that many Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses qualify!

[Saved75]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

People use the terminology "Christian", But according to the Bible, not every born again believer is a Biblical Christian, Never mind the JWs Catholics and other false religions.
And the reason is, It was the people who saw the disciples acting just like Jesus and doing healings and miracles, That made them call the disciples "Christians".
Acts 11: 20--26.
The Bible tells us that The gospel is preached with Mighty signs and wonders, by the power of God, Rom 15: 19. Mk 16: 17--20. Hen 2: 3--4.

OK, so...

-What is the difference between a "born-again believer" and a "Biblical Christian"?
Sounds to me like an arbitrary dictinction. Please clarify.

-If Jehovah's Witnesses, and Roman Catholicism are "false religions" what is the "true" religion/denomination? Both sects honor God through Jesus, why would either be "false"?

-Doing healings, miracles, signs and wonders is the Biblical sign of a true Christian? So..unless one: a) does healings, b) walks on water, c) raises the dead, d) drinks poison safely, e) handles snakes....they are NOT Christian?

How 'bout you, do you do any or all of these things?

How 'bout these things instead: forgiving others, being a good example to others, giving to charity, giving people hope, being a peacemaker, lifting people's spirits...aren't these signs of a true Christian?

If that is the case, I'm certain that many Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses qualify!

I have given you the Biblical meaning of a Christian.
People use the meaning of a Christian, as one who believes in Jesus, but the devil believes, but he isn't a Christian.

There is only one way to get saved, (become the true faith ),
and that's the Biblical way of salvation, which the Catholics and the JWS don't teach.

As for your last point, you are getting believers, (the religious type of Christians) mixed up with the Biblical definition of a Christian.

God does use me to heal the sick and do miracles.

Being good, charity, forgiving people , doesn't make one a Christian, even those who don't believe, can do those things.