Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

[Elijah John]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

[Elijah John]

and that's the Biblical way of salvation, which the Catholics and the JWS don't teach.

As for your last point, you are getting believers, (the religious type of Christians) mixed up with the Biblical definition of a Christian.

God does use me to heal the sick and do miracles.

Being good, charity, forgiving people , doesn't make one a Christian, even those who don't believe, can do those things.

OK, why don't you spell it out for us, the "Biblical way of salvation" from your point of view.

And again, what is the difference between a believer in God and Jesus vs the Biblical definition of a Christian?

And you hold that Catholics don't teach the Biblical way of salvation.

What is it you think Catholics and JWs teach on this matter?

And where, how are they wrong?

If working miracles is the measure of a true Christian, how about Roman Catholic faith healers? There are some, apparently.

And if you rely on signs and wonders in determining who is a Christian and who is not, remember, those can be counterfeited.

And didn't Jesus himself say that "an evil generation looks for a sign"?

And didn't John and Jesus say that Christians would be known by their love?

Not wonders and miracles, but by the fruit of the Spirit, the greatest of which is love, according to Paul.

Then again, love does work miracles in peoples lives and uplifts them, and directs them to God Himself, for "God is love" according to John.

You may work healings and wonders, but do you have love for others? Seems that is far more important, otherwise (how did Paul put it?) "one is just a clanging cymbal".

[Saved75]

and that's the Biblical way of salvation, which the Catholics and the JWS don't teach.

As for your last point, you are getting believers, (the religious type of Christians) mixed up with the Biblical definition of a Christian.

God does use me to heal the sick and do miracles.

Being good, charity, forgiving people , doesn't make one a Christian, even those who don't believe, can do those things.

OK, why don't you spell it out for us, the "Biblical way of salvation" from your point of view.

And again, what is the difference between a believer in God and Jesus vs the Biblical definition of a Christian?

And you hold that Catholics don't teach the Biblical way of salvation.

What is it you think Catholics and JWs teach on this matter?

And where, how are they wrong?

If working miracles is the measure of a true Christian, how about Roman Catholic faith healers? There are some, apparently.

And if you rely on signs and wonders in determining who is a Christian and who is not, remember, those can be counterfeited.

And didn't Jesus himself say that "an evil generation looks for a sign"?

And didn't John and Jesus say that Christians would be known by their love?

Not wonders and miracles, but by the fruit of the Spirit, the greatest of which is love, according to Paul.

Then again, love does work miracles in peoples lives and uplifts them, and directs them to God Himself, for "God is love" according to John.

You may work healings and wonders, but do you have love for others? Seems that is far more important, otherwise (how did Paul put it?) "one is just a clanging cymbal".

I have shown you the Biblical definition of a Christian.

The Catholics and the JWs teach that they enter their religions through water baptism, whereas the Biblical Church enters the body of Christ through the Spiritual rebirth.

The JWs and rcc have their own translation and doctrines, which oppose the Bible.

The Catholics so-called faith healers are not from God, as He will never confirm the erroneous Catholic Church, so the healing's are done by the devil.
If you know about the so-called visions of Mary,and the unbiblical things the say, you would know that the miracles that come through those visions, are of the devil.

You are getting believers mixed up with the true Biblical definition of a Christian.
Which is, one who is just like Jesus and doing healing's and miracles.
Whereas a normal believer, is what you would call a Christian.

I never said a true Christian looks for signs, They are the ones who are just like Jesus, walking in love and holiness and doing miracles. NOT LOOKING FOR SIGNS.

[liamconnor]

[quote="Elijah John"

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

I don't know what definition of cult is being used here. In my understanding a cult typically involves unquestioning assent to dogmatic assertions: unwavering obedience is required, and to even question is to show that one is unworthy.

I don't know that that definition applies to JWs. I have heard stories from others that would suggest this definition, but since I have none of my own, I don't know.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

[/quote]

I don't know how JWs regard RCs or Ps or EOs.

All of this is a matter of definition; Christianity, as a definition, is "what does the N.T. teach?"

It would not be difficult to look up the doctrinal differences existing between JWs and the rest. But I think all the so called "Christians" hold to the apostles' creed: JWs do not.

If the JWs can demonstrate that their doctrines are fully supported by the Bible (O.T. and N.T.) then they would have the right to be called "Christian" (that is, in adherence to Biblical teaching).

That is how I see the situation: it is a matter of definition and exegesis.

[Elijah John]

The Catholics so-called faith healers are not from God, as He will never confirm the erroneous Catholic Church, so the healing's are done by the devil.
If you know about the so-called visions of Mary,and the unbiblical things the say, you would know that the miracles that come through those visions, are of the devil.

Could it be that God's love transcends your understanding of "correct" doctrine and the limits you are trying to impose on that love?

Maybe God works beyond your interpretations and understandings.

I would be very careful about pronouncements such as you are making here...

You seem awfully sure or yourself. Has it occurred to you that you could be wrong?

Those are uncharitable statements, to say the least. Maybe even false witness, idle words and judgemental, or worse.

[Saved75]

The Catholics so-called faith healers are not from God, as He will never confirm the erroneous Catholic Church, so the healing's are done by the devil.
If you know about the so-called visions of Mary,and the unbiblical things the say, you would know that the miracles that come through those visions, are of the devil.

Could it be that God's love transcends your understanding of "correct" doctrine and the limits you are trying to impose on that love?

Maybe God works beyond your interpretations and understandings.

I would be very careful about pronouncements such as you are making here...

You seem awfully sure or yourself. Has it occurred to you that you could be wrong?

Those are uncharitable statements, to say the least. Maybe even false witness, idle words and judgemental, or worse.

God won't work beyond His word, and the Catholics don't teach God's word.
God only confirms His word.

It's not that I'm sure of myself, but that I'm sure of God's word.
And the Catholics don't teach God's word, as their doctrines AREN'T in the Bible.
God said He watches over HIS WORD, to bring it to pass, He also said, He will confirm His word with signs following.

God never said that He would confirm the Catholic errors.

[Saved75]

and that's the Biblical way of salvation, which the Catholics and the JWS don't teach.

As for your last point, you are getting believers, (the religious type of Christians) mixed up with the Biblical definition of a Christian.

God does use me to heal the sick and do miracles.

Being good, charity, forgiving people , doesn't make one a Christian, even those who don't believe, can do those things.

OK, why don't you spell it out for us, the "Biblical way of salvation" from your point of view.

And again, what is the difference between a believer in God and Jesus vs the Biblical definition of a Christian?

And you hold that Catholics don't teach the Biblical way of salvation.

What is it you think Catholics and JWs teach on this matter?

And where, how are they wrong?

If working miracles is the measure of a true Christian, how about Roman Catholic faith healers? There are some, apparently.

And if you rely on signs and wonders in determining who is a Christian and who is not, remember, those can be counterfeited.

And didn't Jesus himself say that "an evil generation looks for a sign"?

And didn't John and Jesus say that Christians would be known by their love?

Not wonders and miracles, but by the fruit of the Spirit, the greatest of which is love, according to Paul.

Then again, love does work miracles in peoples lives and uplifts them, and directs them to God Himself, for "God is love" according to John.

You may work healings and wonders, but do you have love for others? Seems that is far more important, otherwise (how did Paul put it?) "one is just a clanging cymbal".

See what the Bible says about salvation, [Justification] Then compare it to what the Catholic council of Trent says.
Here's who the Bible says,

To him that work's NOT, but believes on Him,[God] that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Rom 4: 5. Eph 2: 8--9. Titus 3: 5.
They all mention salvation is NOT by WORKS.

Now see what the Catholics say,
"If any man says they are justified by faith alone, without WORKS, Let him be anathema".

So either God is right, or the Catholics are right, I believe God and His word, [The Bible], Are right and the Catholics are wrong.

The Catholics replace the sacrifice, blood and death of Jesus, With,
"Works, indulgencies, penance and purgatory", So you can see how erroneous the Catholic church is.
God WILL NOT confirm the Catholic errors.

[Elijah John]

Now see what the Catholics say,
"If any man says they are justified by faith alone, without WORKS, Let him be anathema".

Sounds awfully close to what James says in his epistle, part of the word of God.

The Catholics replace the sacrifice, blood and death of Jesus, With,
"Works, indulgencies, penance and purgatory", So you can see how erroneous the Catholic church is.

Yet the center of the Roman Catholic Mass, is a re-commeration of just that, the sacrifice, blood and death of Jesus in the liturgy of the Eucharist.

So, things like the Trinity, and the Blood atonement, things which you apparently believe...these things you probably never would have even heard of without the influence of the Roman Catholic Church throughout the ages.

God will NOT confirm the Catholic errors.

So, you speak for God? Prove it. And while you're at it, can you demonstrate there are no errors in your own theology?

Can you be specific about this, and list the things that you believe and present us with a creed, the way Catholics, Orthodox and high Church Protestants have done?

Maybe we should all hope and pray that God does not judge us based on the criteria of whether or not we have any "errors" in our own understanding of doctrine or dogma.

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 32 by Saved75]


Moderator Comment

Hello Saved!! I hope you are well!

The Catholics so-called faith healers are not from God, as He will never confirm the erroneous Catholic Church, so the healing's are done by the devil.

In the future, please refrain from making statements that are slanderous toward a particular group of people.

Thank you.
Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[Saved75]

Now see what the Catholics say,
"If any man says they are justified by faith alone, without WORKS, Let him be anathema".

Sounds awfully close to what James says in his epistle, part of the word of God.

The Catholics replace the sacrifice, blood and death of Jesus, With,
"Works, indulgencies, penance and purgatory", So you can see how erroneous the Catholic church is.

Yet the center of the Roman Catholic Mass, is a re-commeration of just that, the sacrifice, blood and death of Jesus in the liturgy of the Eucharist.

So, things like the Trinity, and the Blood atonement, things which you apparently believe...these things you probably never would have even heard of without the influence of the Roman Catholic Church throughout the ages.

God will NOT confirm the Catholic errors.

So, you speak for God? Prove it. And while you're at it, can you demonstrate there are no errors in your own theology?

Can you be specific about this, and list the things that you believe and present us with a creed, the way Catholics, Orthodox and high Church Protestants have done?

Maybe we should all hope and pray that God does not judge us based on the criteria of whether or not we have any "errors" in our own understanding of doctrine or dogma.

James wasn't talking about works for salvation, Abraham was already a man of God, His works justified his faith in God.
James was talking about being justified before men, by putting actions to their faith, See James 2: 18.
V22 says Abraham's works, [Actions] Operated, Activated his faith.
What James means, is, if you say you have faith, show me by your actions.
No way was James talking about salvation by works.

So, Are you saying the Catholics contradict themselves??.
Catholics believe they have to work for their salvation, and they have to do penance to be forgiven.

The Trinity and the atoning blood are Christian doctrines, and every false religion has to put some truth in their doctrines.
If Catholics believed in the Blood's atonement, Why do they do penance indulgencies,
Works and believe in purgatory to be purified??.

The Christians, also give us the Bible, And they gave us the TRUE Bible, as the Catholics kept their Bible in Latin, so no one could understand it and become a threat to them and their doctrines.
So the reformers compiled the Bible into a language that the people could understand, So the Catholics had some of the reformers killed, Because the Bible became a threat to them and their doctrines.
The Bible still is a threat to the Catholics, That's why they have to come against Sola scriptura.

I do speak for God, As I only speak His word, as you would have noticed by my posts.
There can be no errors in what I say, Because there are no errors in God's word.

God will judge the Catholics for rejecting His word in favour of their own doctrines and traditions that nullify the word of God.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 19 by E.G]



"2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. "

This is interesting.
'Jesus Christ coming in the flesh' as to imply that he was not in the flesh before?

I agree with much what E.G says. Also it matters what we believe and it also matters why we reject other things. Amongst many Jesus is despised - just as he was 2000 ys ago; Jewish greeting - 'may his Name be forgotten.' Why are some so-called Christians determined to depose Him, what is really behind it? They claim to respect and honor him but turn him into a lier at the same time.
I came from the father, how much plainer can it be?

Like to add that King James version was long before JW and Mormons and many others sects with thier translations.

It is true, Jesus was not "in the flesh" when he was in heaven before he came to the earth. Flesh cannot stand it to be in the spirit realm (I Corinth.15:50; see also I Timothy 6:16.)

I don't know if you had JWs in mind when you mentioned deposing Jesus, so I just wanted to say that they don't depose him. He always said that he is God's SON and that the Father (whom he called "the only true God" John 17:3) is greater than he is (John 14:28). The Bible also says that Jesus is sitting on God's right hand. (Acts 2:33; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2.)

Indeed it is plain that Jesus is more than a human man, and that he came from God. He is the second highest Person in the universe, after his Father, Jehovah. That is quite a high position and an honor.

It is well-known that the King James Version of 1611 was available long before the New World Translation (c. 1950). JWs used the KJV to spread the truth of God and his Kingdom for many years, and they will use any version. The NWT is their favorite because it includes God's name wherever it belongs, almost 7,000 times throughout the Bible, but they will show the truth with any version of the Bible.