A Messiah who did not usher in the Messianic age

[Elijah John]

And a "God" who was wrong about the time frame of his "2nd time around".

For debate: In light of the above two statements, how could:

-Jesus be the Messiah?

-Jesus honestly be considered "God"?

-What kind of "God" is wrong about his own prediction of his own 2nd visit to earth? (supposedly in the lifetime of his apostles)

[JehovahsWitness]

-What kind of "God" is wrong about his own prediction of his own 2nd visit to earth? (supposedly in the lifetime of his apostles)

This question is based on a premise that your interpretation of certain scriptures must be right, however his premise has not been proven.

Jesus was very explicit that he himself did not know when the world system would end because such information was privy to his father alone and had not been divulged to anyone (including the first century Apostles) - see Mat 24: 36. He (Jesus) gave plenty of indication that the world changes he (Jesus) would implement would be well in the future and that his disciples were not to expect it immediately.


JW

[Elijah John]

-What kind of "God" is wrong about his own prediction of his own 2nd visit to earth? (supposedly in the lifetime of his apostles)

This question is based on a premise that your interpretation of certain scriptures must be right, however imho you are absolutely wrong in your assumption.

Jesus was very explicit that he himself did not know when the world system would end because such information was privy to his father alone but he (Jesus) gave plenty of indication that the world changes he (Jesus) would implement would be well in the future and that his disciples were not to expect it immediately.


JW

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, more than a few threads on this site have demonstrated that Jesus expected his "arrival with the Father's angels" do judge the living and the dead, to occur in the lifetime of his apostles

This is in harmony with the expressed expectations of Paul, the author of Hebrews, and other NT writers.

The implications of these failed predictions and expectations may be too distruptive to one's belief system, but that does not change the plain meaning of those passages.

Those disturbing passages cannot be made to mean anything else without resorting to linguistic, literary or rhetorical gymnastics. Or appeal to such speculative concepts such as "dispensations" instead of plainly understood "generations".

It is one thing to cling to shattered theology and Biblical infallibility, but hadn't one ought refrain from criticizing others who to try to salvage what they can from the Bible, in spite of it's errors?

[JehovahsWitness]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, more than a few threads on this site have demonstrated that Jesus expected his "arrival with the Father's angels" do judge the living and the dead, to occur in the lifetime of his apostles

This is in harmony with the expressed expectations of Paul, the author of Hebrews, and other NT writers.

The implications of these failed predictions and expectations may be too distruptive to one's belief system, but that does not change the plain meaning of those passages.

Those disturbing passages cannot be made to mean anything else without resorting to linguistic, literary or rhetorical gymnastics. Or appeal to such speculative concepts such as "dispensations" instead of plainly understood "generations".

It is one thing to cling to shattered theology and Biblical infallibility, but hadn't one ought refrain from criticizing others who to try to salvage what they can from the Bible, in spite of it's errors?

The threads you refer to fail to prove that Jesus expected his "arrival with the Father's angels" in the lifetime of his apostles and myself and other bible scholars "demonstrated" this. There are no failed predictions in scripture, and any hasty expectations on the part of some of the first century disciples were corrected by Jesus, Paul, the author of Hebrews, and other NT writers.

Those that have a sketchy knowledge of scriptures and support their bias views by disregarding scriptures they find "inconvenient" do well to recognize not all bible students are so weak in eschatology as they are. While I recognize that the implications of these scriptures may be too distruptive to one's belief system, this does not mean they don't exist or such ones should be shielded from them.

It is one thing to have weak and unconvincing theology based on what one wants to believe and "cling" to such flimsy reasoning (hoping desperately perhaps that the "disturbing passages" that contradict their theology would just disappear) another to suggest something has been proven when it has not. While it is understandable that such ones will fear that solid scriptural reasoning will "shatter" their already weak and unreasonable theology forcing them to resort to "linguistic, literary or rhetorical gymnastics" to achieve their feable aims, they cannot reasonably expect that in a debating forum such as this, unproven premises presented as fact will go unchallenged by those that know better or that the meaning of passages should be discarded so as not distrube their selective conclusions.

Acts 1:6
"So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?� He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction."

Luke 19: 11, 12
"While they were listening to these things, he told another illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they thought that the Kingdom of God was going to appear instantly. So he said: “A man of noble birth traveled to a distant land* to secure kingly power for himself and to return. "

* In bible times, without the high speed travel we have in the 21st century, travelling to "a distand land" would require a considerable amount of time.

MATTHEW 25: 3, 5, 14, 19
Then the Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps+ and went out to meet the bridegroom.[...] While the bridegroom was delaying, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

It is just like a man about to travel abroad who summoned his slaves and entrusted his belongings to them.[...] “After a long time, the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them.

MATTHEW 24:36
"However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son* himself. Only the Father knows.

* If Jesus were teaching his disciples that his return would be "within their lifetime" would it not seem strange he would at the same time say he did not know when it would happen?

We'll have to agree to disagree

Evidently.

JW

For more on this topic please go to other posts related to...

LAST DAYS and ...THE SECOND COMING *and ... "DELAYS "DEBUNKED,

*The Return of Christ

[liamconnor]

And a "God" who was wrong about the time frame of his "2nd coming".

For debate: In light of the above two statements, how could:

-Jesus be the Messiah?

-Jesus honestly be considered "God"?

-What kind of "God" is wrong about his own prediction of his own 2nd visit to earth? (supposedly in the lifetime of his apostles)

Good question!

And a "God" who was wrong about the time frame of his "2nd coming".

In the gospels, is there any indication that Jesus himself indicated he might be wrong? (Remember, the gospels are a compilation of sayings...not a "day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute, second by second, recording").

Mark in fact makes it quite explicit that the Son of Man does not know the hour of a certain event--what is that event? (Mark's language actually makes a distinction, between the fall of the temple, and the 2nd coming. He is pretty confident about the former, quite agnostic about the 2nd coming).

Does it matter if Jesus got it wrong? After all, the Christian claim was that Jesus was God INCARNATE. That is, it was God as MAN, doing what MAN needed to do AS MAN. And MAN, not even Adam, is OMNISCIENT, or OMNIPRESENT.

Can God (who needs no food) be tempted to make stone into bread? No, but God qua MAN can be so tempted.

Can God (who is incorporeal) be terrified about being thrown from a high pinnacle? No, but God qua MAN can.

Can God (who could easily take away Satan's kingdom by main-force) be tempted to give knee to satan, so as a negotiation?

No. But God qua Man, who once lost a battle of wills long ago, can choose allegiance to God and forsake the promises of satan.

The rest of the N.T. praises Jesus for not abstract theological attributes but because he was obedient--that is, he performed the role that man was supposed to perform.

[Elijah John]

There are no failed predictions in scripture,

A bold assertion, one that you are ready to defend in all cases? If there were only even one failed prediction in the Bible, what would happen to your faith in Bible infallibility? What would happen to your faith in the given individual who made the failed prophecy? And such a realizaton would also put you at odds with the JW organization. My point is, that you have a lot at stake in preserving your own faith in these things which are demonstrably false. Could it be that the stakes are hindering an objective reading of disturbing passages?

and any hasty expectations on the part of some of the first century disciples were corrected by Jesus, Paul, the author of Hebrews, and other NT writers.

Where did Paul and the author of Hebrews correct their own mistaken expectations? I recall Peter doing so in one his epistles, but not Paul or the author of Hebrews.

Those that have a sketchy knowledge of scriptures and support their bias views by disregarding scriptures they find "inconvenient" do well to recognize not all bible students are so weak in eschatology

"eschatology" the study of the end times. But used in this case to attempt to uphold and defend failed predictions against plain meaning.

Acts 1:6
"So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?� He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction."

Luke 19: 11, 12
"While they were listening to these things, he told another illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they thought that the Kingdom of God was going to appear instantly. So he said: “A man of noble birth traveled to a distant land* to secure kingly power for himself and to return. "

* In bible times, without the high speed travel we have in the 21st century, travelling to "a distand land" would require a considerable amount of time.

MATTHEW 25: 3, 5, 14, 19
Then the Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps+ and went out to meet the bridegroom.[...] While the bridegroom was delaying, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

It is just like a man about to travel abroad who summoned his slaves and entrusted his belongings to them.[...] “After a long time, the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them.

MATTHEW 24:36
"However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son* himself. Only the Father knows.

* If Jesus were teaching his disciples that his return would be "within their lifetime" would it not seem strange he would at the same time say he did not know when it would happen?

Strange, even contradictory, but that is just what Jesus seems to have done. Or the Gospel evangelist seem to have done. Once again,
Matthew 16:27-28

27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.�

Did Jesus come "WITH the Father's angels and reward each according to their works" in the lifetime of his apostles? What part of "will not taste death till they see this" is unclear?

And this one, Matthew 10.23:

When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Did the Son of Man come and rescue his persecuted disciples by means of his 2nd coming, in their lifetimes?

All you have done in your attempt to defend failed predictions attributed to Jesus by offering contradictory verses is that at best, the NT is self-contradictory, at worst deceptive.

Anyone who is not bound by orthodoxy is free to read passages for what they actually say.

Those bound by creedal orthodoxy, or organizational orthodoxy will not, and cannot admit the obvious.

To spell out the obvious, the Bible is actually wrong in some cases.

That is apparent to all but the Fundamentalist, and the Bible literalist.

[Elijah John]

Does it matter if Jesus got it wrong? After all, the Christian claim was that Jesus was God INCARNATE.

The "Christian" claim is also that Jesus was perfect.

No, it does not matter as much were Jesus understood to be entirely human. (though some would argue of dire consequences for erroroneous predictions).

But to claim Jesus is "God" (incarnate or apparition), is to hold Jesus to a higher standard, ie perfection in everything, including prophecy and prediction.

Otherwise it is a convenient and useful dodge to appeal to Jesus "human side".

Trinitarians can have it both ways, and are relieved from the responsibility of being consistent.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 6 by Elijah John]

First of all what exactly did you mean when you said...

We'll have to agree to disagree on this

Secondly I see you seem to want to insist on making personal comments about me as a poster.

If there were only even one failed prediction in the Bible, what would happen to your faith in Bible infallibility?

To clarify my position, I am not here to answer personal questions or debate the quality of my faith and you are in no position to either judge my relationship with God, with my spiritual brotherhood (organization) or prove any asserstions thereof. If you feel the need to discuss the debator rather than the topic at hand you will have to do so with someone else. I sincerely hope I am making myself perfectly clear.

[JehovahsWitness]

Are you claiming "failed predictions" or not. If not I agree with you if so, prove it (and no your personal interpretation is not proof, just opinion).

... in this case to attempt to uphold and defend failed predictions against plain meaning.

I notice you didn't say the meaning "in your opinion" , so I can only presume you believe that your interpretaion is "the truth" and not just opinion. Kindly present verifiable irrefutable universally accepted proof that what you believe is "the truth". Or admit that you are expressing your opinion (which could be wrong). That or say in plain English "I cannot be wrong" (if you choose you can use the word "infallible" as in "my interpretation is infallible"). Either way it will speak volumes about the reasonableness your position.

and any hasty expectations on the part of some of the first century disciples were corrected by Jesus, Paul, the author of Hebrews, and other NT writers.

Where did Paul and the author of Hebrews correct their own mistaken expectations?.

I mentioned the hasty expectations of "some of the first century disciples". Can you offer proof that Paul and the author of Hebrews had "mistaken expectations"? (I will again remind you that "opinion" is not "infallible interpretation"). Over to you to prove the premise upon which your question here is based. Or did you simply fail to pay enough attention to the wording in my post and jump to an inaccurate conclusion? Because as it stands you are asking me to defend a point I did not make.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Acts 1:6
"So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?� He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction."

Luke 19: 11, 12
"While they were listening to these things, he told another illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they thought that the Kingdom of God was going to appear instantly. So he said: “A man of noble birth traveled to a distant land* to secure kingly power for himself and to return. "

* In bible times, without the high speed travel we have in the 21st century, travelling to "a distand land" would require a considerable amount of time.

MATTHEW 25: 3, 5, 14, 19
Then the Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps+ and went out to meet the bridegroom.[...] While the bridegroom was delaying, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

It is just like a man about to travel abroad who summoned his slaves and entrusted his belongings to them.[...] “After a long time, the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them.

MATTHEW 24:36
"However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son* himself. Only the Father knows.

* If Jesus were teaching his disciples that his return would be "within their lifetime" would it not seem strange he would at the same time say he did not know when it would happen?

Strange

I presented a number of scriptural points in evidence that Jesus was not teaching that his return would be imminent. Can you clarify what you believe the scriptures actually mean? The question in blue (above) was not rhetorical. From what I can see your entire counterargument is a single word "strange" intellectually most unsatisfactory. Do you have anything to add in terms of what the the quoted scriptures actually mean (or will you employ the familiar and convenient claim of "interpolation")?

Even if you conclude that Jesus was above being "contradictory" explain what in your opinions were the points in the scriptures above or would it be fair to say you believe that Jesus had no idea what he was saying and had no intended meaning. There are only four scripures, do you feel able to explain them in any way whatsoever without resorting to linguistic, literary or rhetorical gymnastics or stating opinion as if it were irrefutable truth?

JW


I will consider addressing the issues raised by Matthew 16:27-28 and Matthew 10.23 if and when I see that the scriptures *I* have presented have been explained in an intellectually honest and scripturally sound way.