Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

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Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

What was special about Jesus's sacrifice and in contrast why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Also was Jesus perfect?
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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #11

Post by Eloi »

Miles wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:01 pm(...)
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:28 am .... why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?
Because all previous sacrifices were that of animals and could not be accepted by God to atone for loss of human life.
Got any chapter and verse for this, or does it just sound reasonable?.
1 Tim. 2:3 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4 whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom [greek: αντιλυτρον] for all—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.

No other sacrifice of living being, no matter how perfect the animal offered, could pay the price of redemption for every person of the entire humanity who was willing to benefit from that offering:

Psal. 49:6 Those who are trusting in their wealth And who boast about their great riches,  7 None of them can ever redeem a brother Or give to God a ransom for him,  8 (The ransom price for their life is so precious That it is always beyond their reach);  9 That he should live forever and not see the pit.

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #12

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:01 pm Well scripturally, "perfect" as used in Matthew 19:21 doesn't mean without sin at all.
That is correct, which is why I explained in what sense *I* was using the word in my description of Jesus . For more on this please see my post Did Jesus ever commit a sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 61#p970361



WHAT IS BIBLICAL PERFECTION?

The word perfect basically means "complete" or "whole". In the bible the word is used both relatively or in the absolute.


INDEX
How are we to understand the term "perfect" as used in scripture?
viewtopic.php?p=930305#p930305

Did Jesus ever commit a sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 61#p970361

Was Job "perfect"?
viewtopic.php?p=974937#p974937

Did Jesus imply nobody (including himself) was perfect?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p916101

In what sense is GOD perfect?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 29#p797829

If Adam and Eve were perfect, how could they sin? CAN a perfect being, sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 03#p873903
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SIN , PERFECTION , and ...THE RANSOM
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #13

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:47 pm
Miles wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:01 pm Well scripturally, "perfect" as used in Matthew 19:21 doesn't mean without sin at all.
That is correct, which is why I explained in what sense *I* was using the word in my description of Jesus .
But when you phrased your answer to Wootah's question: "Also was Jesus perfect? "

as "Scripturally, yes Jesus was perfect; ie. a sinless human being." it implies that the word "perfect" as used in scripture means "sinless" ["perfect; that is, sinless"]. Moreover, no one is saying Jesus was guilty of any crime; the thrust of your linked post. The point in question is whether or not Jesus was perfect, and as I see it a perfect person wouldn't make a mistake, which Jesus did. Therefore, Jesus was not perfect.

Now maybe you feel that a perfect person can make mistakes, but as I read the definition of "perfect" it excludes such an exception.


perfect adjective
per·​fect | \ ˈpər-fikt

1a : being entirely without fault or defect : flawless a perfect diamond
b : satisfying all requirements : accurate
c : corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept a perfect gentleman
d : faithfully reproducing the original specifically : letter-perfect
e : legally valid
2 : expert, proficient practice makes perfect
3a : pure, total
b : lacking in no essential detail : complete
c obsolete : sane
d : absolute, unequivocal enjoys perfect happiness
e : of an extreme kind : unmitigated a perfect brat an act of perfect foolishness
4 obsolete : mature
5 : of, relating to, or constituting a verb form or verbal that expresses an action or state completed at the time of speaking or at a time spoken of
6 obsolete a : certain, sure
b : contented, satisfied
7 of a musical interval : belonging to the consonances unison, fourth, fifth, and octave which become augmented or diminished when raised or lowered by a half step
8a : sexually mature and fully differentiated a perfect insect
b : having both stamens and pistils in the same flower a perfect flower

Source: Merriam Webster Dictionary

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #14

Post by DavidLeon »

Miles wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:51 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:47 pm
Miles wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:01 pm Well scripturally, "perfect" as used in Matthew 19:21 doesn't mean without sin at all.
That is correct, which is why I explained in what sense *I* was using the word in my description of Jesus .
But when you phrased your answer to Wootah's question: "Also was Jesus perfect? "

as "Scripturally, yes Jesus was perfect; ie. a sinless human being." it implies that the word "perfect" as used in scripture means "sinless" ["perfect; that is, sinless"]. Moreover, no one is saying Jesus was guilty of any crime; the thrust of your linked post. The point in question is whether or not Jesus was perfect, and as I see it a perfect person wouldn't make a mistake, which Jesus did. Therefore, Jesus was not perfect.

Now maybe you feel that a perfect person can make mistakes, but as I read the definition of "perfect" it excludes such an exception.


perfect adjective
per·​fect | \ ˈpər-fikt

1a : being entirely without fault or defect : flawless a perfect diamond
b : satisfying all requirements : accurate
c : corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept a perfect gentleman
d : faithfully reproducing the original specifically : letter-perfect
e : legally valid
2 : expert, proficient practice makes perfect
3a : pure, total
b : lacking in no essential detail : complete
c obsolete : sane
d : absolute, unequivocal enjoys perfect happiness
e : of an extreme kind : unmitigated a perfect brat an act of perfect foolishness
4 obsolete : mature
5 : of, relating to, or constituting a verb form or verbal that expresses an action or state completed at the time of speaking or at a time spoken of
6 obsolete a : certain, sure
b : contented, satisfied
7 of a musical interval : belonging to the consonances unison, fourth, fifth, and octave which become augmented or diminished when raised or lowered by a half step
8a : sexually mature and fully differentiated a perfect insect
b : having both stamens and pistils in the same flower a perfect flower

Source: Merriam Webster Dictionary

.
I honestly don't understand how you can use Jesus' referencing the Kingdom as a mistake to indicate his imperfection. Zedekiah was the last of the Judean kings in Jerusalem, but who was the King after him? The Christian Greek scriptures have over 400 references to the Kingdom, which was no part of the world so why associate it with the end of the world when he made it clear he didn't know when that end would come?

If you were going to point out some fault of Jesus wouldn't the breaking of the sabbath be at least more plausible? (John 5:1-6; Matthew 12:5) You would still be wrong but at least it would be a reasonable suggestion.
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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #15

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:51 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:47 pm
Miles wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:01 pm Well scripturally, "perfect" as used in Matthew 19:21 doesn't mean without sin at all.
That is correct, which is why I explained in what sense *I* was using the word in my description of Jesus .
But when you phrased your answer to Wootah's question: "Also was Jesus perfect? "

as "Scripturally, yes Jesus was perfect; ie. a sinless human being." it implies that the word "perfect" as used in scripture means "sinless" ["perfect; that is, sinless"].





I believe I have explained the scriptural view of perfection and why I applied the word to Jesus in my post and the attached links PERFECTION AND SCRIPTURE *** Links within***
viewtopic.php?p=1021214#p1021214



Jesus was " faultess" "flawless", "pure"; a complete" human being in that he fully that satisfied [divine ] requirements / "ideal standards", as to what a human male should be.

He can thus accurately be described as "perfect"

If you have any further questions as to the biblical view of perfection not explained in detail already, feel free to post them I will certainly consider doing so.

In the meantime please, have an excellent day,


JEHOVAHS WITNESS
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:41 am, edited 8 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #16

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:51 pm...as I see it a perfect person wouldn't make a mistake, which Jesus did.
What "mistake" did Jesus make?






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Romans 14:8

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #17

Post by Tcg »

Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:28 am What was special about Jesus's sacrifice and in contrast why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?
The previous sacrifices were sufficient under the Israelite theological system. When Jesus failed to reform that system and was put to death, his followers, writing primarily under the name of Paul, had to change the story. They created the new doctrine that one needed to rely on Jesus' sacrificial death. If you can't join them, beat them.
Also was Jesus perfect?
He provided a good enough story to create a new religion out of. Was the man Jesus perfect? Of course not, but when has perfection been needed to create a new religion? The Christians created a new problem called original sin and then created a new method to resolve the problem they invented.


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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #18

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to Miles in post #13]
But when you phrased your answer to Wootah's question: "Also was Jesus perfect? "

as "Scripturally, yes Jesus was perfect; ie. a sinless human being." it implies that the word "perfect" as used in scripture means "sinless" ["perfect; that is, sinless"].
All well and good, perhaps.

But the definitions you gave were from a dictionary, rather than being of 'the word "perfect" as used in scripture'.

Therefore I will now quote two sources that explain the meaning and usage of the Greek word often translated "perfect", in the New Testament.
Strong's Concordance

teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Definition: having reached its end, complete, perfect
Usage: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.

HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 5046 téleios (an adjective, derived from 5056 /télos, "consummated goal") – mature (consummated) from going through the necessary stages to reach the end-goal, i.e. developed into a consummating completion by fulfilling the necessary process (spiritual journey). See 5056 (telos).

[This root (tel-) means "reaching the end (aim)." It is well-illustrated with the old pirate's telescope, unfolding (extending out) one stage at a time to function at full-strength (capacity effectiveness).]

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #19

Post by Sojournerofthearth »

Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:28 am What was special about Jesus's sacrifice and in contrast why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?
The previous sacrifices were merely a temporary covering to the raw nakedness of sin, as the animal skins covered the flesh of Adam and Eve. They merely gave them a temporary pardon from eternal death. They did not give them access to God. They gave them a sense of the consequence of sin, that it leads only to death and robs one of eternal life. The blood of bulls and goats could not take away their sin. It could not pay the penalty; it could not restore the promise of life. Nor could the death of a perfect man. He could merely pay for the death of one other in his stead. The only sacrifice that would restore mankind back to God, that would give mankind access back to God, that would cover the sins of all humanity, had to be of one whose life was worth more than the sum total of every man, woman and child. It had to be their very Creator, who laid aside His garments of eternity to take on the lowly state of a man, to live the perfect life that Adam failed to do, and as the 2nd Adam, to lay down his life for mankind, that He would be able to share eternity with mankind and give him a way to overcome the bondage to the ruler of this present world as they were enslaved by Adam's failure, and to follow the footsteps of their elder brother, Jesus, the Christ.
Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:28 am Also was Jesus perfect?
He was perfect as God, the Word. He laid that aside for mankind and became a man, who, through overcoming the sufferings of a man, was restored by His Father, back to that which he was before, the Creator of all things, but now also, the Spirit Born Son of Man. As a man, he was whole and complete in all that God sent him to accomplish. He grew in the nature of God, overcoming every sin that would impede their mission, and he blazed a trail for mankind to follow after Him, which would lead the way as the First Born of many Sons and Daughters to be also born into the family of God.

According to the Bible, if one is so inclined.

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #20

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:19 am
Miles wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:51 pm...as I see it a perfect person wouldn't make a mistake, which Jesus did.
What "mistake" did Jesus make?
As I said in post #2
Wootah wrote: Also was Jesus perfect?
Like in never making a mistake? If so, then he wasn't perfect because he made the mistake of thinking and preaching the end of the world was just around the corner


Matthew 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. [Was it at hand? NOPE!]

Matthew 10:23
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. [Did they go over to all the cities of Israel before the Son of Man came again? YUP!]

Matthew 16:28
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. [Did any of them die before the Son of man came with his kingdom? YOU BETCHA! ALL OF THEM DID.]

Mark 1:15
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. [Was god's kingdom near? HARDLY!]

And so on.

Jesus got it all wrong: The kingdom of heaven was not at hand. They did go over to all the cities of Israel before the Son of Man came again. They all died before the Son of man came with his kingdom. And, The kingdom of God was not at hand.

He made mistakes, and people who make mistakes aren't perfect.


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