Is the Resurrurredction really a historical fact, or not?

[polonius]

In Paul’s oldest and first epistle, written in 51-52 AD, he states without qualification that:

“Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,* will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.g17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.� 1 Thes 4:15-17

But it didn’t happen. Thus we must conclude that either Paul or the Lord were incorrect.

How much else of what Paul told us is also incorrect?

Recall, it was Paul who reported the Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 written about 53-57 AD.

Was his story historically correct (did it actually happen) or is it just a story that was used by and embellished by the writers of the New Testament?

Since the basis of Christian belief is the historical fact of the Resurrection, let’s examine the evidence and see if the Resurrection really happened or can an analysis of the story show that it is improbable if not impossible.

Opinions?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 952 by Claire Evans]

I didn't say that we didn't need the Bible. However, it is not what teaches us about who Jesus really is. They are just words then. It should not be the most important thing in one's life. Some people preach the Bible till kingdom come yet don't understand what they are saying.

Could you demonstrate that you know that you understand what you're saying? IF you claim to "REALLY" know what Jesus is... tell us how you REALLY know, and that others don't REALLY know.

What makes YOUR knowledge so very REAL knowledge about Jesus?

Are you a more real KNOWER?
Please explain and then demonstrate by way of evidence.

Otherwise, you are just bragging.

[KenRU]

People saw Jesus' miracles and some believed.

Exactly. Why not do more of a proven method?

Do you expect Jesus to have done miracles day in and day out? And it is not only through miracles that one can believe. The murderer on the cross believed and repented when He saw Jesus.

I expect a benevolent god to do whatever he could to prevent every soul from ending up in hell (or to assist it in ending up in heaven).

Why don’t you?

As I said, not all miracles made people believe He is the Son of God. You can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink it.

But the ones that would be willing to drink, if shown the water, what about them? They’re not worth a second thought, just because they want to make sure the water is not stagnant?

Someone in posterity seeing wonderfully preserved documents would not do the same.

Correct, it would not have the same effect as having seen a miracle. But even one saved soul is a good thing, right?

It is completely unnecessary.

All souls should be saved. By any means necessary. Isn’t that the point of this?

I'm going to ask you, do you really believe that magically preserved documents would lead atheists to Jesus?

It would have for me. If you could show me that it is miraculous that the documents that should have withered away centuries ago are not despite all known physical laws, then yes.

And, glad you asked, because here is the kicker. When I was a practicing Catholic, it would have, without a doubt, caused me to not leave the faith.

And that is my point.

The idea of submitting to God and doing His will is not appealing to most. It can mean the world will shun you.

I don’t know about the shunning part (I wouldn’t condone that), but if this is true, then he is dropping the ball if he really wants to keep people in his congregation.

I was a prime candidate that he let slip through his ethereal fingers.

That is not the same as seeing Jesus in person doing the miracles. It was the apostles who performed miracles in the name of Jesus that earned converts.

To me, this is irrelevant. Having seen a miracle, more people are inclined to believe in god and Jesus. This seems un-debatable to me. Think of how many souls and converts Christianity could gain now if a couple of widely publicized miracles would happen on prime time TV, or YouTube?

No one's faith could then be exercised. The Pharisees took the same approach as you did and Jesus did not take the bait.

Well then, you have a dilemma. I was a believer and lost my faith. But I can guarantee you that I would not have left the faith had I seen a miracle.

Was my soul not worthy of a little help from the Holy Spirit? Or a miracle? It was not like a light switch, suddenly switched off. It was a gradual decline in faith. Any time, along that path of disbelief could have come a visit from the holy spirit, or having witnessed a divine action, I could have been swayed back into the flock, so to speak.

But you have a self of entitlement then.

I didn’t then. Surely god would have known that?

We cannot always understand what God is doing.

That is a bigger problem for you then you admit, for if this is the case, how is god indistinguishable from chance?

Most of the time we cannot. Listen to God's small voice, not some thunderous boom in the sky.

When your faith declined, did you pray to God about it?

Of course.

I'm left to wonder why miracle during the time of the OT and NT was a good thing then, but is a bad idea now. Why would this be the case?

It's not a bad idea. It's just that it is not needed now because the Holy Spirit is available to everyone.

Perhaps the Holy Spirit is not enough though. Christianity is, after all, on the decline. Especially in the US. So, maybe a few miracles are in order than?

You assume miracles would do the trick.

It would have for me, without a doubt.

After all, people aren't witnessing miracles by Jesus now. Christianity is on the decline because of a global agenda. Christianity is an enemy to those who control the world and it needs to be exterminated. Read this:

https://janegaffin.wordpress.com/2015/0 ... istianity/

Like I said, seems those miracles are needed now more than ever.

Then Jesus would be obliged to give miracles to all of us, not just you or one other person.

An omnipotent god would know who needs that extra push, and who wouldn’t, correct?

It seems as if you don't want to make any effort to know Jesus by changing one's life. Instead you want easy answers by demanding miracles.

Sure, you could say that, if you ignore the 1st 20+ years of my life as a practicing Catholic.

How about we don’t make that assumption?

So, I’m sensing a contradiction here. Does god (in your opinion) perform miracles at all today? Curing cancer? Saving a life here or there? If so, and he is active today, then your point is invalidated.

I really don't know. I have never come across a case where cancer has been cured by God. I know I would just have chemotherapy. There have been people who refuse to get medical treatment and would rather pray and then they die. That's asinine.

Thanks for your candor, CE. It is much appreciated.

And thanks for taking the time to have this discussion.

-all the best

[Clownboat]

So you can't differentiate between the context of the two faiths?

How did you arrive at this? I clearly stated, "How is a mechanism that leads to false beliefs a good thing?"

Faith that leads to a false belief is obviously destructive but that is not always the consequence of faith.

Says you! Can you provide me with an example for when faith leads to true religious beliefs, and if so, please provide the evidence that shows the belief to be true.
I ask, because I am only aware of faith leading to seemingly false religious beliefs, but I'm open to being shown to be incorrect.

Obviously. Babies can't believe in anything. They don't have the ability to appreciate the concept of God.

I take it you retract the claim where you said I "seem to think that it is only possible to have faith if you start off not being sure He exists in the first place."
Thank you.

I'm saying this is the type of thing that leads to false beliefs.

This doesn't mean much coming from a person that cannot show that their beliefs are true in the first place.
Consider this, if Christianity is truly man made, then all Christians are equally wrong in their belief. This would make not just faith, but also Christianity as a mechanism that leads to false beliefs.

I do not see the point of worshiping a god one is not sure exists unless they are obliged to.

Here is the thing, you don't 'know' any gods exist. You only have 'faith' (something used to believe in false things) that your chosen god is real.

You assume that.

Please provide some evidence that you know, or have a relationship with an all knowing entity that can create universes with words. Telling me what the note on my desk says would be a great place to start. Something a universe creator could surely do.

The truth is not always logical. I'm not saying my beliefs are fact because I'd have to prove it then with empirical evidence.

Not all of them. For example, I think most everyone would agree with this claim of yours: "There were fallible people who wrote the Bible. "

Do you agree that the Father doesn't resemble Yahweh? We have Jesus who did not behave the way Yahweh did. Yahweh was a god of war, yet Jesus said those who live by the sword, die by the sword.

Again... In Hebrew the name of God is spelled YHWH. Since ancient Hebrew had no written vowels, it is uncertain how the name was pronounced originally, but there are records of the name in Greek, which did have written vowels. These records indicate that in all likelihood the name should be pronounced "Yahweh."
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/ ... or-jehovah

So what if Jesus came to earth to testify to the truth that the Jews did not have?

Why oh why would anyone assume this to be the case though? Should I believe this claim about Mohammed as well for the Muslims? This starting point is odd if you ask me.
What if there is a more reasonable scenario, like for example, Jesus was a Mahayana Buddhist. We at least know that Buddhist exist. Mohammed being placed on the earth to testify to the truth of the Arabs is a bit far fetched don't you think?

I'm not saying that those people just have beliefs that those gods existed. They interacted with them.

To this day, we still have people that claim that they interact with the gods. This is nothing special.
Please show that you speak the truth when you claim that ancient Bible writers interacted with the gods.

Gods could very well be extraterrestrials.

Sure, I guess. I have never met or seen an extraterrestrial though. I do however realize that all the competing god concepts can't exist. Knowing that frees me of being obligated to make assumptions about ancient people we know very little about. Except for you it seems, you seem to have this uncanny knowledge about their lives. Still not sure how you can claim to know much of what you say ("They interacted with them").

The literal translation of the OT suggests this. Remember that Yahweh was described as a literal being.

Sure, but you already admit that the Bible was written by infallible men. So anything in it is suspect.

Exodus 33:18-23

18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.�

19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

This is not about Biblical contradictions, but thanks for bringing these up.
See also Romans 9:15-16 +18 For Paul's take on Exodus 33
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy. [18] So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.
Now contrast with what Jesus is reported to have said in Matthew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

20 But,� he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live. 21 Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.�

Another good one! Thank you.
Exodus 33:11 And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend.
Genesis 32:30 For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

So how could you not see that the Father is not Yahweh?

I think you are forgetting that I don't see a reason to believe in a Father nor a Yahweh any longer. Either way: Again... In Hebrew the name of God is spelled YHWH.

Why do you assume that just because the OT is pagan based, that suddenly makes Jesus not the Son of God?

There is a long list of reasons to not consider Jesus the son of a god.
The Hebrew religion being pagan based is just a reason to doubt the Hebrew god claims in general. It being pagan based would not automatically make Jesus not a son of a god, but him being a Buddhist does seem more reasonable don't you think? Do you believe that Mohammed was sent by a god?

It's irrelevant in my opinion.

The Bible not being anything special will be relevant for many.

Does the betrayal of the OT dent my faith in the slightest? Absolutely not. I do not base my faith on the scriptures. You do understand my belief that once one knows the Teacher, whatever is written in the scriptures is not that important. If you are looking for perfection in the scriptures to have any sort of faith, you are wasting your time.

Please show that you know a teacher. Provide some sort of evidence that you don't suffer from religions paranoia or that you are just an outright fraud.

It's a bit odd that you think God can be proven especially over the Internet. If Revelation is to be believed, Jesus will come again and prove He is the Son of God.

It's odd that you believe a god can create universes with words, but can't prove himself even though you claim to know him. This thing you know should be able to tell you what I have written on my desk. I don't believe you empty claim that you know any god or any teacher. I am open to being shown wrong though, and with you knowing the creator of the universe, this task for you should be extremely easy.

Now watch this:

Now read this:

Apophenia: The experience of seeing meaningful patterns or connections in random or meaningless data.

Why do you automatically assume that? Is it not logical to assume that dumping tons of radioactive water into the Pacific indefinitely will eventually cause the death of the Pacific Ocean?

I make note of Apophenia existing. I can not comment on radioactive water in the Pacific at this time, nor its effects. If it's somehow relevant to this thread, feel free to discuss it further.

Does that Revelation passage seem more plausible now?

No, it contradicts 1 Corinthians anyways. Can't have you cake and eat it too.

Please elaborate.

Will do.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

First we have 1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
Now see 1 Corinthians 13:5 (Love) doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taken not account of evil.

The Christian god both takes accounts of evil and doesn't take accounts of evil too. However, contradictions in the Bible are not something there is a shortage of.

[Clownboat]

So therefore you shall never know whether I am deceived or not.

So...even if I were to pray, and somehow reach the Holy Spirit, this spirit CANNOT divulge to me whether or not Claire Evans has been deceived?

Well, if you had the Holy Spirit, then you could. If not, you would not be able to.

How did you acquire this Holy Spirit (I remember my alter call) and why can I still speak in tongues?

Do I still have the Holy Spirit, or does the more logical scenario ring true that there is not some Holy Spirit to have?

Were you indoctrinated to believe that your conscience, or still small voice if you want to call it that is some spirit entity?

If spirits can interact with our physical reality, we could detect these interactions. Why don't we?

This is actually not directed at you. Clownboat made the claim that he can speak in tongues and I said that is called glossolalia. In the Bible, speaking in tongues referred to speaking in languages not understood by the speaker.

And I still can, praise god! Woops, that one slipped.
Believe me when I tell you that I'm speaking in another language that I cannot understand, but the Holy Spirit and god can. (If we are to believe my pastors).

[Claire Evans]

Why would the devil deceive people to go to the Holy Spirit, which would mean those people would reject him? A kingdom divided cannot stand.

You're still framing the entire scenario from the assumption that your religion is true.

But you are talking hypothetically, no? So I'm telling you why I don't believe the devil is the Holy Spirit based on my beliefs. It doesn't make sense.

If Jesus was a deceiver, then that would mean the Holy Spirit isn't a reliable concept, and may in fact be a deception on its own.

That is true but we can't assume He was a deceiver.

I think it's very telling that you weren't even able to consider this notion; you haven't actually come into this debate with any notion that you might be wrong.

Have you come into this debate with any notion I could be right?

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 952 by Claire Evans]

I didn't say that we didn't need the Bible. However, it is not what teaches us about who Jesus really is. They are just words then. It should not be the most important thing in one's life. Some people preach the Bible till kingdom come yet don't understand what they are saying.

Could you demonstrate that you know that you understand what you're saying? IF you claim to "REALLY" know what Jesus is... tell us how you REALLY know, and that others don't REALLY know.

What makes YOUR knowledge so very REAL knowledge about Jesus?

Are you a more real KNOWER?
Please explain and then demonstrate by way of evidence.

Otherwise, you are just bragging.

Did I say I have exclusive information? Many know Him! Many share my beliefs! If someone is consistently behaving contrary to the why Jesus did, then they don't know Him. We believe sin separates us from Jesus. That is the barrier. So making one's will God's will, you can ask Him to just reveal the truth no matter how unpalatable it is.

I like to challenge other Christian's beliefs. If they don't want to or obfuscate or just plain evade, then there faith is not teaching them much. One can be so confident in their faith and that they will allow anyone to examine every iota of their beliefs.

[Claire Evans]

People saw Jesus' miracles and some believed.

Exactly. Why not do more of a proven method?

Do you expect Jesus to have done miracles day in and day out? And it is not only through miracles that one can believe. The murderer on the cross believed and repented when He saw Jesus.

I expect a benevolent god to do whatever he could to prevent every soul from ending up in hell (or to assist it in ending up in heaven).

Why don’t you?

As I said, not all miracles made people believe He is the Son of God. You can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink it.

But the ones that would be willing to drink, if shown the water, what about them? They’re not worth a second thought, just because they want to make sure the water is not stagnant?

Why can others believe and not need miracles? Why should someone thing they should be entitled to it. If makes me think that they don't want to make the effort to know Jesus and just have Him fall into their laps.

Someone in posterity seeing wonderfully preserved documents would not do the same.

Correct, it would not have the same effect as having seen a miracle. But even one saved soul is a good thing, right?

It is completely unnecessary.

All souls should be saved. By any means necessary. Isn’t that the point of this?

I'm going to ask you, do you really believe that magically preserved documents would lead atheists to Jesus?

It would have for me. If you could show me that it is miraculous that the documents that should have withered away centuries ago are not despite all known physical laws, then yes.

How would you know that it is due to Jesus that those documents were preserved magically? Many people would do anything not to believe in Jesus so they would just say it is a hoax or it was done by a magician. Truly, you don't need these things to believe. Why must you behave like a doubting Thomas?

And, glad you asked, because here is the kicker. When I was a practicing Catholic, it would have, without a doubt, caused me to not leave the faith.

And that is my point.

Catholic? Oh dear. I don't think you had much of a desire to know Jesus. It takes time to see how He works in one's life. Why not put in the effort inside of wanting to take shortcuts like seeing miracles?

The idea of submitting to God and doing His will is not appealing to most. It can mean the world will shun you.

I don’t know about the shunning part (I wouldn’t condone that), but if this is true, then he is dropping the ball if he really wants to keep people in his congregation.

I was a prime candidate that he let slip through his ethereal fingers.

Then Jesus would have to pretend all is pie in the sky for believers. It is not so. He lost many followers on the way but He couldn't pretend. Many people don't like the truth, so they just turn away. Should Jesus twist the truth around to gain followers?

That is not the same as seeing Jesus in person doing the miracles. It was the apostles who performed miracles in the name of Jesus that earned converts.

To me, this is irrelevant. Having seen a miracle, more people are inclined to believe in god and Jesus. This seems un-debatable to me. Think of how many souls and converts Christianity could gain now if a couple of widely publicized miracles would happen on prime time TV, or YouTube?

No one's faith could then be exercised. The Pharisees took the same approach as you did and Jesus did not take the bait.

Well then, you have a dilemma. I was a believer and lost my faith. But I can guarantee you that I would not have left the faith had I seen a miracle.

Was my soul not worthy of a little help from the Holy Spirit? Or a miracle? It was not like a light switch, suddenly switched off. It was a gradual decline in faith. Any time, along that path of disbelief could have come a visit from the holy spirit, or having witnessed a divine action, I could have been swayed back into the flock, so to speak.

But you have a self of entitlement then.

I didn’t then. Surely god would have known that?

You may not have consciously thought so but, subconsciously, I believe very much so.

We cannot always understand what God is doing.

That is a bigger problem for you then you admit, for if this is the case, how is god indistinguishable from chance?

Most of the time we cannot. Listen to God's small voice, not some thunderous boom in the sky.

When your faith declined, did you pray to God about it?

Of course.

And what response did you get that made you think it wasn't good enough?

I'm left to wonder why miracle during the time of the OT and NT was a good thing then, but is a bad idea now. Why would this be the case?

It's not a bad idea. It's just that it is not needed now because the Holy Spirit is available to everyone.

Perhaps the Holy Spirit is not enough though. Christianity is, after all, on the decline. Especially in the US. So, maybe a few miracles are in order than?

You assume miracles would do the trick.

It would have for me, without a doubt.

You have a me, me, me attitude which I don't like.

After all, people aren't witnessing miracles by Jesus now. Christianity is on the decline because of a global agenda. Christianity is an enemy to those who control the world and it needs to be exterminated. Read this:

https://janegaffin.wordpress.com/2015/0 ... istianity/

Like I said, seems those miracles are needed now more than ever.

If miracles didn't make everyone believe back in Jesus' say, don't think it would be different now.

Then Jesus would be obliged to give miracles to all of us, not just you or one other person.

An omnipotent god would know who needs that extra push, and who wouldn’t, correct?

Then they are not persisting with their faith if they need an "extra push". No one can demand God for anything.

It seems as if you don't want to make any effort to know Jesus by changing one's life. Instead you want easy answers by demanding miracles.

Sure, you could say that, if you ignore the 1st 20+ years of my life as a practicing Catholic.

How about we don’t make that assumption?

I make that assumption because nothing Jesus did, which you believed once, was good enough for you. Being a practicing Christian can mean nothing. It doesn't necessarily make on a believer.

So, I’m sensing a contradiction here. Does god (in your opinion) perform miracles at all today? Curing cancer? Saving a life here or there? If so, and he is active today, then your point is invalidated.

I really don't know. I have never come across a case where cancer has been cured by God. I know I would just have chemotherapy. There have been people who refuse to get medical treatment and would rather pray and then they die. That's asinine.

Thanks for your candor, CE. It is much appreciated.

And thanks for taking the time to have this discussion.

-all the best

You are welcome and thank you.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 959 by Claire Evans]

Why would the devil deceive people to go to the Holy Spirit, which would mean those people would reject him? A kingdom divided cannot stand.

You ask an interesting question. How do you propose we go about getting the answer to it? Perhaps, the Christian "kingdom" doesn't stand on solid ground at all. Perhaps it stands on falsehoods. I think having a good reason to think our beliefs are true is really important.

That's why we ask Christians how they know that their beliefs are true.

But you are talking hypothetically, no? So I'm telling you why I don't believe the devil is the Holy Spirit based on my beliefs. It doesn't make sense.

Atheists obviously can't evaluate your beliefs based of your beliefs alone.
You DO have beliefs, but we are asking how do you know that your beliefs are true?

That is true but we can't assume He was a deceiver.

Should we assume anything about the HS?
Is assuming something a guarantee that it is true?

Have you come into this debate with any notion I could be right?

How do you propose to demonstrate that you are indeed right?
As atheists, we have no "faith" that you are right about your religious beliefs, so we have to demand for evidence. We have no other choice, otherwise, we would have to believe ANY religious claim.

And there are lots.

[Clownboat]

Why can others believe and not need miracles? Why should someone thing they should be entitled to it. If makes me think that they don't want to make the effort to know Jesus and just have Him fall into their laps.

Why? Some people are more gullible than others. On top of that, pastors, preachers, shamans and Imams are bribing them with everlasting life claims and virgins and such.

Some people are just more skeptical than others. Just because they have a harder time then you when listening to the claims of a preacher, shaman, Imam, etc... does not mean they deserve to burn in a hell forever I wouldn't think.

Especially if they are willing to believe, but just can't find god claims to date to be credible. For these people, at least being shown that there is a supernatural realm would go a long way. For many, it would change the hypothetical destination for their soul.

Unfortunately, we know fraud after fraud is done in the name of religions. All knowing gods would know that some people will be faced with deciding if claims made my pastors, shamans and Imams are just more of the same.

Perhaps 'faith' is still the problem. I don't have the faith that you must have in order to believe the claims made by pastors, shamans nor Imams. However, being shown that there is a supernatural realm would go a long way.

I, unlike others will require more than a pastors, shamans or Imams word that a holy book is true.

[PghPanther]

In Paul’s oldest and first epistle, written in 51-52 AD, he states without qualification that:

“Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,* will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.g17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.� 1 Thes 4:15-17

But it didn’t happen. Thus we must conclude that either Paul or the Lord were incorrect.

How much else of what Paul told us is also incorrect?

Recall, it was Paul who reported the Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 written about 53-57 AD.

Was his story historically correct (did it actually happen) or is it just a story that was used by and embellished by the writers of the New Testament?

Since the basis of Christian belief is the historical fact of the Resurrection, let’s examine the evidence and see if the Resurrection really happened or can an analysis of the story show that it is improbable if not impossible.

Opinions?

and what is in the clouds?

That's the loser right there............these clowns back then thought there was a heaven and it was in the clouds up there in the sky...........

Clouds!!!

Its about time we stop thinking there is a Santa at the north pole....... and a God in the clouds and start living in reality.............