Is the Resurrurredction really a historical fact, or not?

[polonius]

In Paul’s oldest and first epistle, written in 51-52 AD, he states without qualification that:

“Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,* will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.g17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.� 1 Thes 4:15-17

But it didn’t happen. Thus we must conclude that either Paul or the Lord were incorrect.

How much else of what Paul told us is also incorrect?

Recall, it was Paul who reported the Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 written about 53-57 AD.

Was his story historically correct (did it actually happen) or is it just a story that was used by and embellished by the writers of the New Testament?

Since the basis of Christian belief is the historical fact of the Resurrection, let’s examine the evidence and see if the Resurrection really happened or can an analysis of the story show that it is improbable if not impossible.

Opinions?

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 908 by Claire Evans]

However, in this case, why wasn't it refuted when, according to the Bible, the Pharisees and Pilate were desperately afraid that Jesus' body would be stolen and a resurrection claim be made?

[Replying to post 908 by Claire Evans]

However, in this case, why wasn't it refuted when, according to the Bible, the Pharisees and Pilate were desperately afraid that Jesus' body would be stolen and a resurrection claim be made?

Did anyone from back then really care about the earliest Christians and their claims?
Remember, it is ONLY from the Bible that we hear about Pilate and the Pharisees being so concerned about this group of people and their wandering preacher leader.

Well, isn't the reason why Pilate put Jesus to death, according to the Bible, because he was afraid of a revolt? I think he wanted the Jesus resurrection claims put to rest.

In any event, how could Pilate and the others have refuted the disciple's claims? They didn't have the body. The body of Jesus had already been given to Joseph of Arimathea. So if Pilate wanted to say "Jesus didn't rise from the dead, his disciples made the whole thing up", how could he prove it, with no body to show for it?
Remember, the disciples were the LAST people to have possession of the body. And it was the disciples who reported seeing Jesus post-death. And it was the disciples who reported seeing Jesus fly away/disappear.
Your comment sounds to me like a shifting of the burden of proof. Instead of the disciples proving their claims true, you treat the claims as being true because Pilate didn't refute them, didn't prove them false.

It had been given to Joseph of Arimathea but the Jewish authorities knew that there were visitors to the tomb. According to the Bible, up to the last moment, the two women visited Jesus' tomb. I don't think they'd be visiting a tomb they know is empty. So the authorities must have known Jesus was in the tomb.

Jews did believed that the resurrection only occurred when the world ends. It would seem reasonable that they'd try and refute the claim of the resurrection of Jesus so to prevent Jewish converts.

What about hostile witnesses? They could have claimed that they saw Jesus' body being taken away. In fact, why hasn't there been any historical sources that make this claim? Instead we get theories like the swoon theory which means that claims of the resurrection were taken seriously.

Today if someone makes a claim that is false, evidence to the contrary will be presented. The USA blames Russia for killing innocent civilians, for example. Is Russia going to sit back and not try and refute and provide evidence to the contrary?

Did anyone from back then really care about the earliest Christians and their claims?
Remember, it is ONLY from the Bible that we hear about Pilate and the Pharisees being so concerned about this group of people and their wandering preacher leader.

Well, isn't the reason why Pilate put Jesus to death, according to the Bible, because he was afraid of a revolt? I think he wanted the Jesus resurrection claims put to rest.

In any event, how could Pilate and the others have refuted the disciple's claims? They didn't have the body. The body of Jesus had already been given to Joseph of Arimathea. So if Pilate wanted to say "Jesus didn't rise from the dead, his disciples made the whole thing up", how could he prove it, with no body to show for it?
Remember, the disciples were the LAST people to have possession of the body. And it was the disciples who reported seeing Jesus post-death. And it was the disciples who reported seeing Jesus fly away/disappear.
Your comment sounds to me like a shifting of the burden of proof. Instead of the disciples proving their claims true, you treat the claims as being true because Pilate didn't refute them, didn't prove them false.

It had been given to Joseph of Arimathea but the Jewish authorities knew that there were visitors to the tomb. According to the Bible, up to the last moment, the two women visited Jesus' tomb. I don't think they'd be visiting a tomb they know is empty. So the authorities must have known Jesus was in the tomb.

Jews did believed that the resurrection only occurred when the world ends. It would seem reasonable that they'd try and refute the claim of the resurrection of Jesus so to prevent Jewish converts.

What about hostile witnesses? They could have claimed that they saw Jesus' body being taken away. In fact, why hasn't there been any historical sources that make this claim? Instead we get theories like the swoon theory which means that claims of the resurrection were taken seriously.

Today if someone makes a claim that is false, evidence to the contrary will be presented. The USA blames Russia for killing innocent civilians, for example. Is Russia going to sit back and not try and refute and provide evidence to the contrary?

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 906 by Claire Evans]

.

Mambo No. 5

There is no other way to know Jesus but through faith.

Please explain to us how you acquired this knowledge?
Thank you.

Please don't ask me to prove this. This is not part of the debate. This is you asking about my experience.

If you can't prove it, then any god claim you make is perfectly useless.
Religious people LOVE to tell us about their religious beliefs. However, they are NOT always so keen on explaining why we should believe their beliefs are TRUE.

You said that :

I'm talking about truly understanding Jesus.

And :

There is no other way to know Jesus but through faith.

IF you claim to KNOW something, please, tell us how you know it.
Otherwise, we wont believe that you really know it. And the claim falls FLAT.

I refer you to the forum debate rules. Specifically number 5.

"5. Support your assertions/arguments with evidence. Do not persist in making a claim without supporting it. All unsupported claims can be challenged for supporting evidence. Opinions require no support, but they should not be considered as valid to any argument, nor will they be considered as legitimate support for any claim. "
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6

It has taken many years. One of the ways to know the Holy Spirit really exists is to know the existence of the devil.

Your testimony doesn't help you in here This is a debate forum, not church. Now, not only do you have to prove that the HS exists, but also, the devil. We are cautioned to support our claims with EVIDENCE in here... you will have to do better than tell us your story.

If you have no proof of EITHER... we can't believe you.
And that's pretty much the end for your CLAIMS.

I was introduced to evil spirits at age 12. Praying to banish them demonstrated the power of the Holy Spirit.

That sounds like proof of your belief, but not that your beliefs are TRUE.

To me, only knowing the horror of evil can one appreciate God. I have always known God exists.

You expect us to believe that you have always "know God exists", however, you give us NO reason to think that what you believed in was TRUE in any way. You don't even seem to understand the epistemological problem.

I didn't know the devil always. One has to invite the Holy Spirit in one's life to make His presence known.

That's another unsupported claim. You give us no reason to think that it's true, either. It seems as if you "Just believe" without having any rational reason.

There are no such thing as coincidences in my opinion.

I wonder how you could EVER hope to prove that.
There is no such thing?

Sounds like denial to me.

It is a deeply personal thing. I am by no means unique.

Every one of us is "unique", and I can grant you that your personal religious experience is. You make claims, and you can't prove them true to US... can you prove it to yourself?

Do you ever QUESTION the truth of your beliefs?

Why do you only mention preaching now? You asked me what I believed and I told you. You KNOW the Holy Spirit cannot be proven yet you make a new thread about the Holy Spirit.

[Claire Evans]

In the Bible, Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to the disciples.

We established that what the Bible says is suspect back in post 874. We can't trust what the Bible says. So why do you trust the Bible when it says the Holy Spirit guides disciples?

Because it can be applied now in my belief. That is something you'd have to find out for yourself if you are interested.

[Claire Evans]

There is such a practice called automatic writing. That is when the supernatural guides the hand of the person writing.

Oh there is? Can you prove it?

On the Internet? Of course not. But we do have claims from very influential people like Alice Bailey whose theosophy very much influences the United Nations:

"Perhaps the most famous automatic writer was Alice Bailey, the theosophist and founder of Lucifer Trust (later renamed Lucis Trust) who claimed her “Ascended Master� named Djwhal Khul wrote the 24 books of The Plan through her while she was in a trance. This plan refers to specific preparations that need to be made to usher in a New Age [New World Order] and a New Age Christ. The Plan has been referred to as “an occult vision to take over the world.�

We know that it has been observed but not seriously credited to be through spirits:

"The physician Charles Arthur Mercier in the British Medical Journal (1894) criticized the spiritualist interpretation of automatic writing concluding "there is no need nor room for the agency of spirits, and the invocation of such agency is the sign of a mind not merely unscientific, but uninformed."[17] According to skeptical investigator Joe Nickell "automatic writing is produced while one is in a dissociated state. It is a form of motor automatism, or unconscious muscular activity."[18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic ... c_analysis

I really do believe Revelation is something to be believed because it really is starting to resemble what is happening.

Like what?

I'm going to bring your attention to Revelation 13: 17-18
The Mark of the Beast
…17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark—the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18Here is a call for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and that number is six hundred sixty-six.

Now watch this:



Read this article:


http://www.thesleuthjournal.com/nbc-new ... s-3-years/

Does that Revelation passage seem more plausible now?

Revelation 8:9


"...a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed."


Water covers more than 70 percent of the Earth's surface, with the largest body of water, the Pacific Ocean, taking up more than one-third of the planet's surface.

Tepco, the owners of the stricken Fukushima plants is dumping about 650 tons of radioactive water into the Pacific per day.


"According to two University of Washington scientific research papers that were recently released, a 1,000 mile stretch of the Pacific Ocean has warmed up by several degrees, and nobody seems to know why this is happening. This giant “blob� of warm water was first observed in late 2013, and it is playing havoc with our climate. And since this giant “blob� first showed up, fish and other sea creatures have been dying in absolutely massive numbers. So could there be a connection? And what is going to happen if the Pacific Ocean continues to warm up? Could we potentially be facing the greatest holocaust of sea life in the Pacific that anyone has ever observed? If so, what would that mean for the food chain and for our food supply?...

"Meanwhile, while this has been going on, scientists have also been noticing that sea creatures in the Pacific have been dying in record numbers. In fact, last summer I wrote an article entitled “Why are massive numbers of sea creatures dying along the west coast right now?� Since then, things have continued to get even worse. For instance, it was recently reported that the number of sea lions washing up on Southern California beaches is at an all-time record high…

"A record 2,250 sea lions, mostly pups, have washed up starving and stranded on Southern California beaches so far this year, a worsening phenomenon blamed on warming seas in the region that have disrupted the marine mammals’ food supply. "The latest tally, reported on Monday by the National Marine Fisheries Service, is 20 times the level of strandings averaged for the same three-month period over the past decade and twice the number documented in 2013, the previous worst winter season recorded for Southern California sea lions. "And of course fish are being deeply affected as well. Sardines have declined to their lowest level in six decades, and National Geographic says that a whole host of tiny fish species at the bottom of the food chain are dying off rapidly."

http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd696.htm

So there are signs.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 921 by Claire Evans]

If those people had faith, why do they believe they need a faith healer?

How should I know?

We would have to ask them. There are THOUSANDS of them.
However, I could imagine that they have FAITH in God and also FAITH in the faith healer.

They use FAITH... and get bilked out of their time, energy and money.
Faith healing is one of the ways that faith makes people GULLIBLE.

We know that for a FACT.

Surely Jesus is the only who intercedes?

Yep, most faith healers know the drill.. THEY don't heal anyone... JESUS heals.
They exploit what Christians believe.. that's how the scam WORKS.

But there isn't anything SURE about Jesus.
The only thing SURE is that a lot of people sure do seem to believe.

It appears as if those who seek faith healers have more faith in the faith healer than Jesus. I'd also say there is a lot of gullibility involved. The power of suggestion needs to be taken into account and a "faith healer" just being fraudulent.

Yep.
We agree for once.

We know for a FACT that faith healing is a scam.

People DO use faith to know things are true. AND a whole lot of them get BILKED out of their cash. And some of them forgo ACTUAL medical treatment because of the faith that they have. Faith can be and has been proven to be DANGEROUS to people and to entire societies.

That's ALSO a fact.

2. Are you saying that people AREN'T being "healed" by faith anymore?

There are many claims as such. A stand-in priest claimed to have been healed because he had great pain in his neck and he claimed it went away. I believe Jesus can take away pain if it becomes too much to bear. The actual problem with the priest's neck didn't go away. The pain just went away. There are some things in my life that I couldn't bear anymore and then it was taken away. This is what I believe healing is.

I had a pain in my chest. It was "taken away" by surgery. I would have died without science. That's what I believe real healing is.

The rest is... some pains just go away. I don't need to be healed for that.
EVER.

Some serious conditions JUST GO AWAY.. and no prayer is needed for that. Even CANCERS go into spontaneous remission, God belief or NOT. Pray all you like... we have no proof that it's going to change anything. But if prayer makes you HAPPY.. we DO know that happiness helps.

So, BE HAPPY... if prayer makes you happy, DO IT.
But... to believe that what you pray to is REAL..... that's a stretch.

I think of the THOUSANDS of kids writing letters to Santa. I think that's a good thing. It makes them HAPPY.

But is Santa real?

Nah....

Prayer is like a letter to Santa... makes people REAL happy.
I say "good for them"... but is God real?

Nah...

I don't know how people can manage believing in something that they don't know is TRUE. BUT they sure do... it's a mental juggling act that some call "resolving cognitive dissonance".

Some use critical thinking to get out of the unpleasant feelings of being wrong, and some just dig themselves deeper and FORGET that they haven't resolved anything. Donal Trump seems to be the poster child for self-delusion. He might ACTUALLY believe his own lies.

3. Are you saying that back then, in Gospel days, FAITH wasn't needed.. but a demonstration was needed? It took DEMONSTRATIONS THEN.... and now it takes FAITH?

Not always. Let us take the case of the centurion in Luke 7:1-3

After he had finished all his sayings in the hearing of the people, he entered Capernaum. 2 Now a centurion had a servant[a] who was sick and at the point of death, who was highly valued by him. 3 When the centurion heard about Jesus, he sent to him elders of the Jews, asking him to come and heal his servant.

So, Jesus thought they needed a demonstration of the "power" of faith. And then, Jesus did some god magic. Not today? No demonstration needed? Just a book, I suppose, is needed today. It seems to me that today, people are WAY more gullible than they were back then.

You say that Jesus needed to PROVE that he wasn't just blowing hot air.. but today.. he doesn't need to prove it. What he NEEDS is a huge propaganda machine.. and he has that. And apparently, nothing needs ever be PROVED again.

We all have to take it on FAITH now... or burn in hell.

4. You said that JESUS uses modern medicine. Are you saying that Jesus doesn't heal by FAITH, but that modern medicine is actually GOD MAGIC ? Ok.. I can't really make heads or tales of this... so could you just clarify what you meant?

I'm not going to disregard people who claim to have been healed by faith, but I believe Jesus uses people to invent medication, etc.

I am not DISREGARDING anyone at all. I might want to DISREGARD their unverified claims, though. If I ask for evidence, and they give me the run around.. I ignore the claims. You make a lot of claims, Claire.. a whole LOT of claims.

I ask for evidence.. if you don't give me any.. I ignore the claims.

You can believe anything that you like. HOWEVER, your belief isn't proof. It's JUST A BELIEF. You will have to do more than simply telling us over and over what you believe. I'm beginning to think you don't understand the question.

Here it is again:

HOW do you know what you believe is true?

So far, it's as if that question is MEANINGLESS to you... or transparent. We GET that you are a Bible believer.. a CHRISTIAN.... we know that already. We don't need to be told EACH AND EVERY THING that you believe in order to get it. You don't HAVE to transcribe the entire Bible in the forum. WE GET IT.

Try to focus instead on our ACTUAL QUESTIONS.

How do you know what any of your beliefs are TRUE?
Is one such question.

If you can't answer that then we have to IGNORE your beliefs as unjustified. There are MILLIONS of unjustified beliefs. We don't have to believe them ALL. Your beliefs are precious to YOU... but not to everyone, Claire. To outsiders of your faith, your beliefs are JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE'S. Your beliefs are not special at all to US. But we understand that your beliefs are special TO YOU... and that's why I find it AMAZING that you really don't seem to even UNDERSTAND the question :

How do you know your beliefs are TRUE?

I say anything good comes from Him, so why not in this instance?

You can SAY anything that you like.. but saying something isn't giving EVIDENCE for it.

Asking "why not?" is one of the WORST possible answers.

Imagine a court case... a murder trial.. something IMPORTANT as your belief in God.. and the prosecution demands "WHY did you murder that child?"... and you would answer... "Why NOT?"

Do you IMAGINE "why not" is a good justification?

Why not... be a Muslim or a Hindu or a Jew or any other of the 30,000 denominations of Christianity you reject as FALSE Christians? Why do you take JUST THE BELIEF that you happen to have as TRUE, and all the others FALSE?

I really do think you can't understand the question. If you quote the Bible as an answer, it's proof that you don't. We don't NEED a quote from the Bible that you believe is true. We are asking you REPEATEDLY to prove your beliefs TRUE.

I believe God can help suffering people by using those who care to help them. We are meant to be His mediums.

SURE YOU DO... you believe that and it probably makes you HAPPY. And if that's the case, I am really HAPPY that your belief makes you happy.

Now... next time, I hope you bother to explain how what you believe is TRUE.

5. How have you established that if there was an absence of the Holy Spirit, then the resurrection could not have happened?

Because the devil would have conquered mankind and our souls. What reins in evil? Why does good still exist? If we believe all good comes from the Holy Spirit, then surely it would have died with Jesus in the grave? It is only the Holy Spirit that impedes Satan. Nothing else frightens him.

WOW... you have very interesting beliefs. They must be very special to you.

So, you justify your beliefs by even MORE unjustified beliefs. You are just digging yourself deeper and deeper into the very same epistemic hole.

It's too bad that you can't prove any of your beliefs are actually true.
Doesn't that concern you at all?

6. Why should we believe these "miraculous" tales?

That belief of miracles comes naturally after knowing the Holy Spirit. I do not have to examine each claim and say, "This didn't happen or this did."

You don't bother examining claims? You just accept them if you think they fit with what you already believe?...

Claire, I'm sorry, but you sometimes demonstrate very bad thinking.

PLEASE consider taking a look at critical thinking.
You seem to need those skills desperately.
You are using what is known as "confirmation bias" and that's not good thinking at all:

It's on the list here of fallacious reasoning. This page is well worth the reading:

http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/

And you might be interested to know a little about critical thinking in general.. since it's the epistemic method that I am promoting:

http://www.skillsyouneed.com/learn/crit ... nking.html

And you seem to be EASILY persuaded to believe something, and the English word for that is :

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... h/gullible

7. You said that "Christianity espouses that it is only through the conquering of sin that Jesus rose from the dead. " Could you explain how ESPOUSING something makes it true?

No, espousal proves nothing. However, if I say, "This and this is the truth", then I get chastised for preaching.

Because it IS preaching and NOT debating. In this debate forum, you have to do MORE than simply saying "This and this is the truth". You have to DEMONSTRATE to the skeptic that what you believe in is true.

This is a debate forum.... we are expected to DEMONSTRATE that our claims are true in here, if challenged.

I am CHALLENGING YOU.

How do you know that your beliefs are true? If you believe that the HS guarantees the truth of your religious beliefs, for example, how do you know that the HS is a true belief? IF you believe that the proof of the HS ( and I have to guess now ) is the Bible, then please explain to us how you know the Bible is true?

The Bible is full of stories.. how do you know they are TRUE stories?

You are being CHALLENGED to justify your beliefs. It's time to stop PROFESSING your beliefs, and begin to think about your REASONS ...We now have TONS of evidence that you really believe this stuff. OK.. let's go BEYOND that stage, shall we?

8. You stated that you believe that Lazarus came back from the dead, but that you can't be sure it really happened. If you don't know for sure.... HOW and WHY do you believe?

Because the rising of the dead is what I believe Jesus can do.

You believe something because you believe something ELSE?

Then now, you have to prove BOTH are true. Don't you realize that you have made your task TWICE AS HARD?

You have to prove that the story in Lazarus is true AND you have to prove that Jesus can actually rise people from the dead. You have 2 unjustified beliefs instead of ONE to prove. How are you going to justify Jesus being able to rise people from the dead?

Are you going to base that on ANOTHER unjustified belief?

How deep is this epistemic HOLE ?
When are you going to ACTUALLY get to the bottom of this? How do you know that your beliefs are true.. do you HAVE an answer to that? Or do you NOT bother if your beliefs are true? So many people really DON'T, you know.
All too many people are THRILLED to have beliefs, and NEVER bother to think about if those beliefs are true. Some people prefer holding on to a belief rather than having TRUE BELIEFS. You have beliefs, Claire, that much is pretty evident. But what is NOT evident that your beliefs are true at all.

And you don't seem to understand the problem.

Every time that you tell us WHAT you believe instead of telling us how you know what you believe is true is yet MORE evidence that you don't understand the question.

How can I help you understand the question?

He is one with the Father and the Father rose Jesus from the dead. There are other stories in the NT that I don't believe are actually true but are symbolic like the wilderness story.

Again, you offer us WHAT you believe but not at all WHY.
Do you begin to see the problem with your kind of answer?

Telling us WHAT you believe isn't explain HOW you know your belief is true.

9. How do we know something to be true by the "Holy Spirit".

By establishing a relationship with Him.

Have you ever had a relationship with someone who was DUPING you?
I suppose that it could happen. Did it ever happen to YOU?

Maybe everyone you have met has always been perfectly truthful. How lucky if that's true. Most of us have been lied to.... and we NEVER knew it until it was too late. A lot of people get DUPED, Claire. Are you sure you aren't being duped by well meaning or not so well meaning folk?

Some of us had false beliefs, only to find out LATER that we were wrong about them. Claire, have you ever even once been WRONG about some belief? Some of us suffer from delusions, and BELIEVE that what we are thinking is true, even though, it's just not. That's sad. How do you know this so called relationship isn't just a relationship with an idea in your head, and NOT something that is actually real?

How do you know that EVEN IF the HS is really real, that it's not LYING to you or is not DELUSIONAL, or evil, or dangerous for you, or anything ELSE?

When I was a kid.. I didn't have many friends, so I invented an IMAGINARY FRIEND.. and "played" with him. I had a relationship.. but that "David" was NEVER REAL. Have you heard of imaginary friends?

How can you know that HS isn't one of THOSE?

You seem to tell us that you TRUST this "voice" in your head.
A lot of people trust voices in their heads. Not all of them should be BELIEVED, and some of them are in real trouble. If you go to a doctor and tell him that you hear voices in your head... do you imagine the doctor will be HAPPY for you?

Or will he want to give you tests?

I don't want to be rude... but I really cannot tell if you need tests or not. I won't be able to do that. But you MIGHT. How could I know?

Certainly NOT by what you write in here.
Do you see the problem?

I'm not saying that you are crazy... it's just that what you write SOUNDS crazy to me. Voices in your head.... doesn't sound GOOD to me. You believe that they are REAL... and can't seem to prove that they are.. isn't that a bit of a PROBLEM for you?

I know it would be for me.. I'd go see a doctor if I had persistent voices in my head telling me what to do and think.

10. I don't do everything that I like.. and I'm an atheist. Do I "have" the Holy Spirit?

I'm not saying you aren't influenced by good things which are from the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit cannot dwell in you because you haven't invited Him in.

So, now you claim that anything good I do is proof of the HS?

And ... that you claim the HS can't come in if I don't invite him?
Well, I invite him all the time. MY DOOR is always open at all times, 24/7

It always has been. It is right now.
HS doesn't seem to care about my open invitation... so INVITATION isn't good enough, Claire.

Have you ever had a conversation with an atheist before, Claire?
Are you listening?

Why SHOULD I let him in... what's my MOTIVATION?

How can one invite Him in? By abandoning one's will for one's own life.

That sounds HORRIBLE.

My MOTIVATION is that I have to be ready to abandon my LIFE? Well if you put it that way.. I don't WANT him in anymore. I am MORE motivated to KEEP my life, thank you. HS can stand outside the door.. until he goes AWAY.

Invitation REVOKED. I only allow NICE people to come into my house.
You make the HS sound EVIL.

Be prepared to take on the cross which takes suffering. Be prepared to kill the ego and all things that promote oneself. To actually get to that stage, one needs to be humiliated to realize one is nothing without God. Jesus was humiliated.

How many people are prepared to do that?

Masochists for Jesus? Who knows? You seem to imply that there are LOTS of you willing to be humiliated for Jesus. I think that's sad, by the way. Very, very sad.

In any case, I am not buying THAT today.
I don't really feel the NEED to be humiliated, thank you.

I also suffer ENOUGH thank you very much. YOU suffer and be humiliated all you like for Jesus.. I'll take a pass. I'd like to be as happy as possible during the short time I have left to live. I don't want to suffer or feel humiliation MORE than I already do.

If you were selling something that RELIEVED pain and suffering.. but nah.. we already HAVE medical science.

You are free to suffer all you like. If it makes you happy, do it.
Suffering doesn't make ME happy. But then, I didn't like Fifty Shades of Grey, either.

I will go to your post about the Holy Spirit but remember it cannot be classified as a debate.

I'm ONLY interested in a debate in a debate forum, thank you.
If you want to preach, I suggest the Holy Huddle... or a church.

I'm not at all interested in preaching.

This discussion is over. Just remember you may receive a lot of preaching on your Holy Spirit thread. That is something you would have brought upon yourself.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 921 by Claire Evans]

but the Holy Spirit cannot dwell in you because you haven't invited Him in.

I'm pretty sure I've told you in the past, CE, that I asked for just that. Well, to be more precise, I prayed to God to do with me as he would, to use me as his agent (maybe not using the word agent, but I hope I get the general gist across).

Your claims here are immediately proven false by the fact that I am here talking to you as an ex Christian.

How can one invite Him in?

Oh so you have a method, something that works? Go on...

By abandoning one's will for one's own life.

As noted above, I did just that. Nothing happened. This can also be interpreted as being willing to commit suicide. I attempted that once, nothing supernatural happened (unlike stories I hear from Christians, including one from a poster here on the site who says something supernatural happened to him when he attempted suicide).

Be prepared to take on the cross which takes suffering.

A literal cross, or just be prepared to suffer? Humans do that every day. If I go for long walks or hikes, I'm prepared for the pain that will result.

. Be prepared to kill the ego and all things that promote oneself.

Again, reread the first line from me in this comment.

To actually get to that stage, one needs to be humiliated to realize one is nothing without God. Jesus was humiliated.

I've been humiliated in the past, quite a few times. No Holy Spirit though. I remember as a young child, being mocked by others in my home town for believing.

How many people are prepared to do that?

Me. Tried it, no result.
Your method here doesn't work.

We have already discussed this and I told you I believed what your problem was and that is the ego.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 930 by Claire Evans]

How could my ego be the problem when I prayed to God to do whatever he wanted with me? That sounds to me to be as anti ego as one can get!

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 930 by Claire Evans]

How could my ego be the problem when I prayed to God to do whatever he wanted with me? That sounds to me to be as anti ego as one can get!

That is because you expected some sort of special sign like miracles in the sky. Do you recall that? You think because Paul had them then you should have them, too.

[KenRU]

People saw Jesus' miracles and some believed.

Exactly. Why not do more of a proven method?

Do you expect Jesus to have done miracles day in and day out? And it is not only through miracles that one can believe. The murderer on the cross believed and repented when He saw Jesus.

I expect a benevolent god to do whatever he could to prevent every soul from ending up in hell (or to assist it in ending up in heaven).

Why don’t you?

Someone in posterity seeing wonderfully preserved documents would not do the same.

Correct, it would not have the same effect as having seen a miracle. But even one saved soul is a good thing, right?

It is completely unnecessary.

All souls should be saved. By any means necessary. Isn’t that the point of this?

According to the Bible, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, the Teacher. He is all the proof one needs.

And how does one find or welcome this Holy Spirit?

That is not the same as seeing Jesus in person doing the miracles. It was the apostles who performed miracles in the name of Jesus that earned converts.

To me, this is irrelevant. Having seen a miracle, more people are inclined to believe in god and Jesus. This seems un-debatable to me. Think of how many souls and converts Christianity could gain now if a couple of widely publicized miracles would happen on prime time TV, or YouTube?

No one's faith could then be exercised. The Pharisees took the same approach as you did and Jesus did not take the bait.

Well then, you have a dilemma. I was a believer and lost my faith. But I can guarantee you that I would not have left the faith had I seen a miracle.

Was my soul not worthy of a little help from the Holy Spirit? Or a miracle? It was not like a light switch, suddenly switched off. It was a gradual decline in faith. Any time, along that path of disbelief could have come a visit from the holy spirit, or having witnessed a divine action, I could have been swayed back into the flock, so to speak.

I'm left to wonder why miracle during the time of the OT and NT was a good thing then, but is a bad idea now. Why would this be the case?

It's not a bad idea. It's just that it is not needed now because the Holy Spirit is available to everyone.

Perhaps the Holy Spirit is not enough though. Christianity is, after all, on the decline. Especially in the US. So, maybe a few miracles are in order than?

Anyway, Jesus could do miracles to kingdom come yet that didn't make everyone believe or repent:

Matthew 11:20-24:


Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.�

Still, some did repent. Some did convert. Are not those souls worthy?

The point I'm trying to make is that you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink it.

You dodged my point. If just one person could be swayed from losing faith (as I have) by the appearance of a miracle or divine help, I would think a benevolent god would not hesitate to save that soul from eternal hell.

But that is my opinion of a benevolent god.

There's a difference between gaining followers because they have seen and gaining followers because they have faith.

Do those who have witnessed miracles and converted have a weaker Faith? Or stronger?

It depends on the motive. Do the ones who convert after seeing a miracle truly desiring to be a true disciple of Jesus which is to abandon all esteem? All do they follow Jesus because they are convinced He is the son of God yet won't be a true follower of His? Here's an example:

Matthew 19:16 and 21

16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?�

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.�

The rich man knew Jesus could give eternal life yet he did not want to do what was required of him. That was to abandon one's own esteem.

So the former is the one with the greater faith.

This is a blanket generalization. And by no means can be expected to account for every person whose faith might need a little boost, especially in today’s clime.

Again, if every soul is of worth, than a benevolent (and omnipotent) god would know that some might just need a little more information in order to be saved.

I can speak for myself, if I saw a miracle and rejoined Christianity, my faith would be stronger than ever, and I would have no doubt whatsoever - BECAUSE of what I saw.

How is that a bad thing?

To be honest, Satan has no doubt about Jesus being the son of God. He believes. However, as I mentioned, it is not just believing because they have concrete proof. It is about believing because of faith which is not exercised should you just have witnessed a miracle. Truly knowing God is to seek Him. To listen to His voice without demanding miracles in the sky. To trust when one can't see the way. When you look back in your life and you realize how God has guided, then that is more convincing than miracles.

So, I’m sensing a contradiction here. Does god (in your opinion) perform miracles at all today? Curing cancer? Saving a life here or there? If so, and he is active today, then your point is invalidated.

-all the best

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 930 by Claire Evans]

How could my ego be the problem when I prayed to God to do whatever he wanted with me? That sounds to me to be as anti ego as one can get!

That is because you expected some sort of special sign like miracles in the sky. Do you recall that? You think because Paul had them then you should have them, too.

I'd expect at least a "Hey, I am actually here after all". Ya know, some indication that the entity I'd been praying to for years was actually there.
But no. That's arrogant or something, in your logic. Asking God to do with me what he wants, asking for advice and orders, being a faithful little follower...nope, that's egotistical!

I honestly have to ask here just what, in your eyes, and in your god's eyes, is good enough? I've told you, I dedicated my life to God. I asked for guidance. I prayed, often, in tears. I strove as hard as I could to be faithful.
Wow. Just wow. No wonder I left. If your god actually does exist, he's a real piece of work, and not in a good way.