If you didn't want to believe in Christianity...

[Justin108]

If you didn't want to believe in Christianity, would you stop believing? Suppose you didn't like Christianity at all. Suppose you didn't like the idea of Jesus dying for your sins, an afterlife, etc. would your belief in Christianity stop?

If not, what is it about Christianity that makes any alternative so absolutely unbelievable?

[MadeNew]

[Replying to post 77 by MadeNew]
!


[center]The false Scotsman strikes again.[/center]

So you realized you never really believed in Christianity? i.e. you realized you were never really a Christian?

No, Madenew.. he realized that he DID.
Try reading it again slowly this time.....

What did you read that told you he was never a real Christian.. was it the part where he said that he WASN'T anymore? I used to be a school boy.. but I'm not anymore.. Does that mean I never was?

The "No true Scotsman " argument makes people sound RIDICULOUS.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman

Try to avoid it.

Ya i read his post, and i read his linked post. He realized he never believed in Christianity. This "no true scotsman" fallacy doesn't really apply. There is nothing about a "scotsman" that defines a "true scotsman". If you live in, or are from Scotland, you would could be considered a "true scotsman", there is nothing else to it. Wikipedia gives the example that "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge." as a No true Scotsman fallacy, but that doesn't define a scotsman, what defines a scotsman is where the person is from. So on that definition, someone who is from and lives in England, isn't a true scotsman. In fact he isn't even a scotsman. This is based on the definition of "scotsman", and not on some unspoken rule about a "true scotsman"...


So what makes up a Christian? Well in Romans it says "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

So if you believe Jesus was raised from the dead you could be considered a Christian, right? And if not, you are not considered a Christian. This is based on the definition of a Christian, like the definition of a scotsman. Scotsmen are from Scotland. Christians believe Christ was raised from the dead. If you don't believe Christ was raised from the dead now, you never truly did.

It also goes on to define it even more.

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."(1 John 2:19)

It tells us that by the act of leaving the faith, that this shows they never really belonged to the Faith. This is actually a definition of someone who embeds the spirit of the antichrist, opposed to the Holy Spirit. This would be evidence that that person never received the Holy Spirit.

But this is based on the definition of what a Christian is... Just like a person from Egypt isn't a true scotsman.. He isn't even a scotsman. Once Convinced has demonstrated he isn't a Christian, and never was. On definition, if he was he would have remained to the end.

Now once convinced might claim to have believed Christ raised from the dead, but i doubt it is true. If you believed in your heart Christ was raised form the dead, what kind of evidence is going to convince you otherwise? It better be good, solid evidence and not some kind of speculation... If you don't believe in the resurrection based on some kind of speculation, something that isn't proven to be true, i have a hard time believing you ever believed it in the fist place. Besides, we have good evidence Christ was really raised from the dead, so you better have a good reason to not believing in this. If not i have a hard time believing you ever did.

So tell me Once Convinced, did you ever believe Christ was raised from the dead? If so, why did you believe that? And what convinced you otherwise?

[OnceConvinced]

So you realized you never really believed in Christianity? i.e. you realized you were never really a Christian?

What? No way. I fully believed in Christianity. I was completely invested in it. I had a relationship with God. I was as real a Christian as you are. After I lost my faith I ceased to believe. That is when I became an ex-Christian.

[OnceConvinced]

I read most of it and whatever I say as an observer only so please do not take offence.

What struck me yu feel you missed out on life which seems you've been with some fundamentalists.

I've mixed with all sorts. Not just fundamentalists.

I've been there but after a break of around 20ys I went to all sorts of seminars - New Age, Theosophy, eastern religions/gurus..bought and read some amazing books. I found many of them instead of don't-touch, to be highly valuable. They all contributed to some degree whether clarifying things or finding new gems. I am thankful for every book I laid my hands on. Most of them would be from New Age shops and not Christian.
Might sound bit strange but I am more Christian now than ever.

I put my total faith in one book. The bible. That was what I read. That was what I studied. Anything taught by anyone else had to line up with it. Occasionally I would read a christian book of some kind but never new age stuff.

Have you read any stuff that takes opposing viewpoints to Christianity? I never did until after I lost my faith.

You needed answers and did not find them in that environment

I found many answers from studying the bible and coming to my own conclusions... and also from ideas put forth by others... but later I realised those answers were lacking. The bible certainly didn't do it's job of providing solid answers.

Now I have found a lot more answers and they stear me away from Christianity.

I can not but remain with what I said, God is not hiding*

Then I guess that means he either doesn't care about me or is non-existent.

[OnceConvinced]

Ya i read his post, and i read his linked post. He realized he never believed in Christianity.

You clearly didn't read it properly. I said no such thing. I said that I NO LONGER believe. At the time I was completely invested in it and had complete faith in Jesus. I fully believed.

So what makes up a Christian? Well in Romans it says "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Which I did. Until around 8 years ago. Then I began to lose my faith in it. I began to realise it wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

So if you believe Jesus was raised from the dead you could be considered a Christian, right? And if not, you are not considered a Christian. This is based on the definition of a Christian, like the definition of a scotsman. Scotsmen are from Scotland. Christians believe Christ was raised from the dead. If you don't believe Christ was raised from the dead now, you never truly did.

Then I was most definitely a true Scotsman. It's just that I left Scotland and changed my nationality.

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."(1 John 2:19)

That scripture it talking about a specific group of people who were once part of the group that letter was written to. It's not a general statement about ex-Christians. In fact if you read Paul's righting he talks about the possibility of losing your faith all the time.

It tells us that by the act of leaving the faith, that this shows they never really belonged to the Faith. This is actually a definition of someone who embeds the spirit of the antichrist, opposed to the Holy Spirit. This would be evidence that that person never received the Holy Spirit.

Nope, that is not the case at all. Remember the bible promises that the holy spirit will be given to you as soon as you repent. Which I did. It also says this:

Heb 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This is saying that you can taste the HS and fall away and lose it. You are then not able to gain it again.

But this is based on the definition of what a Christian is... Just like a person from Egypt isn't a true scotsman.. He isn't even a scotsman. Once Convinced has demonstrated he isn't a Christian, and never was. On definition, if he was he would have remained to the end.

Nope, I have not demonstrated that at all. You have completely misrepresented what I have said. You are using the no-true-scotsman fallacy indeed.

Now once convinced might claim to have believed Christ raised from the dead, but i doubt it is true.

Then you are calling me a liar.

If you believed in your heart Christ was raised form the dead, what kind of evidence is going to convince you otherwise?

You will never understand until you are in the same position as I was.

It better be good, solid evidence and not some kind of speculation...

Yep, I can give you a list of a close to a hundred things for why I no longer beleive. All very good reasons. However based on the way you are misrepresenting me I doubt you will read it properly. But I can understand why you are so desperate to discredit me. Your faith must be very shaky indeed.

So tell me Once Convinced, did you ever believe Christ was raised from the dead?

Of course I did.

If so, why did you believe that?

Because the bible said so and because I believed Jesus was in my life and active.

And what convinced you otherwise?

Realising the bible was wrong and that what I thought was Jesus was unlikely Jesus at all. But if you had really read my story properly you would know the answers to these questions. Clearly you never read it properly.

I find your insinuations and accusations extremely insulting. I spent over 30 years of genuine belief in Christ. Fully invested in it. People like you simply demonstrate to me just how false Christianity is. They prove even more that their religion is simply a fantasy and wishful thinking.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 83 by OnceConvinced]

"I put my total faith in one book. The bible. That was what I read. That was what I studied. Anything taught by anyone else had to line up with it. Occasionally I would read a christian book of some kind but never new age stuff.

Have you read any stuff that takes opposing viewpoints to Christianity? I never did until after I lost my faith. "

We know that Jesus spoke in parables. Besides that, spiritual things are clothed with natural in order to be seen and made sense of (spiritual in itself is foreign to us in the world of time and space).

OT can not be taken literaly. Jews do not.

Letter killeth but spirit giveth life.
The Word is written in correspondences,
representations (ark of the covenant, Aaron's breast plate etc).
The meanings have been lost and the Greeks ended up making their own gods, Apollo, Zeus etc.

Yes i read books opposing Christianity. Read Dawkings when I was in spiritual widerness for 20ys. I believe the Lord continues to reveal Himself many different ways. It's up to us not to be quick in judgment and decide what is from Him what is not, i.e. a Muslim having OBE and meeting Jesus.
Better to try and understand.

[MadeNew]

[Replying to post 84 by OnceConvinced]

OC, you don't believe in Christianity, therefor you are not a Christian... And that is pretty much the end of the debate. Your story tells us that you stopped believing in Christianity, this is evidence you never truly believed it. Your story provided the evidence of this, your words deny this. Actions speak louder then words OC. And 1 John 2 is talking about anyone who leaves the faith, this is a blanket statement for how we can tell if someone is Christian or not. You have provided evidence you are not a Christian, and you never belonged to the Faith. Your story is testimony to such thing, and your denial is just words.

[Justin108]

If you don't believe Christ was raised from the dead now, you never truly did.

This is simply not true. It is entirely possible to have believed something in the past that you no longer believe now

It better be good, solid evidence and not some kind of speculation...

What good, speculation-free evidence did you receive that initially convinced you that Christ rose from the dead? There must have been a point in the past where you didn't believe this, until the day someone told you. Whether it was your parents or your church. What speculation-free evidence did they give you to support their claim?

[otseng]

[Replying to post 84 by OnceConvinced]

OC, you don't believe in Christianity, therefor you are not a Christian... And that is pretty much the end of the debate. Your story tells us that you stopped believing in Christianity, this is evidence you never truly believed it. Your story provided the evidence of this, your words deny this. Actions speak louder then words OC. And 1 John 2 is talking about anyone who leaves the faith, this is a blanket statement for how we can tell if someone is Christian or not. You have provided evidence you are not a Christian, and you never belonged to the Faith. Your story is testimony to such thing, and your denial is just words.

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[MadeNew]

Hitler isn't a Christian.

[MadeNew]

[Replying to post 86 by MadeNew]

Hitler isn't a Christian. He doesn't meet the requirements of a Christian. If you go around exterminating people because you don't agree with them, that is not Biblical, Christ prayed for the sinner, he didn't kill them. If someone came to me and said "i believe in Zeus, i don't believe in Christ, but im a Christian", that doesn't make sense and it isn't true. This is objectively false, not some subjective judgement.

This is what Christianity is, and Christianity says.

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."(1 John 2:19)

This is an objective trait of Christianity, and what makes up a Christian. If someone admits they don't believe in Christianity, then they are not a Christian. I don't usually judge people on whether or not they are Christian but this is a bit obvious. Someone that says "I am not a Christian", then it is obvious they are not a Christian..