“Sun stood still� (Earth stopped rotating)

[Zzyzx]

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“Sun stood still� (Earth stopped rotating)

Joshua 10:12Then Joshua spoke to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, "O sun, stand still at Gibeon, And O moon in the valley of Aijalon." 13So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies. Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day. 14There was no day like that before it or after it, when the LORD listened to the voice of a man; for the LORD fought for Israel.…


Here, in layman's language, is an idea of what would happen if the Earth stopped rotating.

There are two things to keep in mind:
1. An object in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force.
2. Everything that is on the surface of the Earth is also spinning with the Earth, which is why we experience day and night.

At the moment of sudden stop, every object that was not firmly anchored to the Earth would continue traveling in the direction it was moving -- tangential to the Earth's surface. The degree of "lurch" would depend greatly on your line of latitude -- which reflects your distance from the axis of spin. At the North and South Pole a small piece of earth has 24 hours to move in a full circle around the axis, which is feet to fractions-of-an-inch per hour (i.e. pretty darn slow). At the equator -- the farthest distance from the axis -- the surface of the Earth is moving at 1670 kilometers/hour (1070 miles/hr).

In other words: at the moment of sudden stop everyone standing at the equator would suddenly find themselves travelling at 1.4 times the speed of sound relative to the now-still surface...at least until they hit something.

And then the real fun starts.

Amongst the things that would still be moving (per Newton's first law of motion) is the atmosphere. Anyone who survived flying sideways at 1000+ miles per hour would quickly realize that they were experiencing the worst wind storm ever imaginable. For context, a category five hurricane has winds of over 249km/h (155 miles/h). Just like the people who went flying, the speed of the air is now 1000+ miles per hour relative to the now-stopped surface. Anything that didn't already go zooming to one side would be getting smashed by crushing wind force...and probably then go flying.

And then there's the fact that about 70% of the Earth's surface is water -- which is also not anchored. The shift in momentum would yield enormous tsunamis, which would probably be even worse due to the aforementioned raging windstorm.

There's yet one more liquid we'd have to be concerned with: all of the magma constantly moving through the Earth's mantle and core. I'm not sure whether the magma stops moving suddenly with the solid earth or it stays moving -- but assuming it's still moving*, that would most likely lead to volcanic eruptions through every channel possible to the surface...and there would be earthquakes that go with that.
https://www.quora.com/What-would-happen ... rotating-1

When the Earth began rotating again the reverse would happen . . .

Still believe ancient tales about the Earth ceasing rotation? What sort of mental gymnastics and/or willful ignorance of physics and astronomy does it take to keep believing tales by ancients who thought the Sun revolved around the Earth?

Would it not be more rational to understand that the tale is a TALL TALE -- a religious fantasy?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 8 by liamconnor]

At the same time, as any fundamentalist will tell you, the laws of physics were created by God. If that is so, the laws can be suspended.

In which case, any claim said by anyone at any time, you'd have no way to either debunk or ridicule away, since all they'd have to say is "God did it. God suspended the laws of physics".
In my example above, Sally accused Nick of stealing her tiara from her bedroom. Without considering God, forensic investigators concluded there was no sign of forced entry and that Nick was seen in a diner a hundred miles away.
Now, by introducing a God who suspends laws of physics when and where he desires, now suddenly not even that counter-evidence is enough to counter Sally's accusation. God could have teleported Nick to the bedroom.

[PghPanther]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

Yes, if the earth stopped rotating, we'd all be wiped out by the disaster. (Unless you consider that with God all things are possible.)

But the scripture didn't say the earth stood still. I imagine there are a number of ways that an all-powerful God could make it appear to earthlings that the sun stood still for a number of hours.

For one example, have you seen the science fiction shows that show a person who has the ability to slow or stop time for others (or speed himself up instead)? Wouldn't it appear to him that the sun suddenly stood still?

Do you know for a certainty that God could not do something similar? Even just causing men to believe that such a thing happened,

The fact that scriptures describe it this way makes the physics impossible....so why wouldn't this insightful God through his revelation of the Holy Spirit to the writers of this stuff tell the writer how God did this without destroying the physics of angular momentum and gravitational attraction. If this God explained that to the writer and it was documented as such it was add much more credence to this fairy tale......at least give a reason to investigate that methodology...

You might say that is not important to the revelation from God to man through scriptures? Well then why is it be debated and a point of contention for non-belief in Biblical stories today?

Certainly if this God was really a God as described in these stories it would have known such fairy tale explanations wouldn't fly in the face of society 2,000 years later....

Then again some middle eastern nomadic herders who made this God up to begin with would have never considered such challenges to what they were writing.

I contend if you took any of the Biblical characters that might have actually lived and moved them in a time machine to 2016 and showed them everything we know today through science and technology they would think...."Crap did we mess up.........we are clueless about reality" and jettison all the junk they wrote about......

[catnip]

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“Sun stood still� (Earth stopped rotating)

Joshua 10:12Then Joshua spoke to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, "O sun, stand still at Gibeon, And O moon in the valley of Aijalon." 13So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies. Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day. 14There was no day like that before it or after it, when the LORD listened to the voice of a man; for the LORD fought for Israel.…


Here, in layman's language, is an idea of what would happen if the Earth stopped rotating.

There are two things to keep in mind:
1. An object in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force.
2. Everything that is on the surface of the Earth is also spinning with the Earth, which is why we experience day and night.

At the moment of sudden stop, every object that was not firmly anchored to the Earth would continue traveling in the direction it was moving -- tangential to the Earth's surface. The degree of "lurch" would depend greatly on your line of latitude -- which reflects your distance from the axis of spin. At the North and South Pole a small piece of earth has 24 hours to move in a full circle around the axis, which is feet to fractions-of-an-inch per hour (i.e. pretty darn slow). At the equator -- the farthest distance from the axis -- the surface of the Earth is moving at 1670 kilometers/hour (1070 miles/hr).

In other words: at the moment of sudden stop everyone standing at the equator would suddenly find themselves travelling at 1.4 times the speed of sound relative to the now-still surface...at least until they hit something.

And then the real fun starts.

Amongst the things that would still be moving (per Newton's first law of motion) is the atmosphere. Anyone who survived flying sideways at 1000+ miles per hour would quickly realize that they were experiencing the worst wind storm ever imaginable. For context, a category five hurricane has winds of over 249km/h (155 miles/h). Just like the people who went flying, the speed of the air is now 1000+ miles per hour relative to the now-stopped surface. Anything that didn't already go zooming to one side would be getting smashed by crushing wind force...and probably then go flying.

And then there's the fact that about 70% of the Earth's surface is water -- which is also not anchored. The shift in momentum would yield enormous tsunamis, which would probably be even worse due to the aforementioned raging windstorm.

There's yet one more liquid we'd have to be concerned with: all of the magma constantly moving through the Earth's mantle and core. I'm not sure whether the magma stops moving suddenly with the solid earth or it stays moving -- but assuming it's still moving*, that would most likely lead to volcanic eruptions through every channel possible to the surface...and there would be earthquakes that go with that.
https://www.quora.com/What-would-happen ... rotating-1

When the Earth began rotating again the reverse would happen . . .

Still believe ancient tales about the Earth ceasing rotation? What sort of mental gymnastics and/or willful ignorance of physics and astronomy does it take to keep believing tales by ancients who thought the Sun revolved around the Earth?

Would it not be more rational to understand that the tale is a TALL TALE -- a religious fantasy?

It could be that it is not literal, you know. It could be relating an altered state of consciousness. This could be brought on by a drug--and the ancient Jews had some whoppers, including "gall" and if I recall correctly artemesia or "wormwood" or something I have never heard of. Although I can't remember where they are mentioned in the O.T., they are. If I recall correctly, the ones above are mentioned in Exodus. Or it could be brought on by sleep deprivation, deep meditation (probably not in the case of war). The ancients didn't distinguish between the mundane reality and other kinds of experiences.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

Yes, if the earth stopped rotating, we'd all be wiped out by the disaster. (Unless you consider that with God all things are possible.)

But the scripture didn't say the earth stood still. I imagine there are a number of ways that an all-powerful God could make it appear to earthlings that the sun stood still for a number of hours.

For one example, have you seen the science fiction shows that show a person who has the ability to slow or stop time for others (or speed himself up instead)? Wouldn't it appear to him that the sun suddenly stood still?

Do you know for a certainty that God could not do something similar? Even just causing men to believe that such a thing happened,

The fact that scriptures describe it this way makes the physics impossible....so why wouldn't this insightful God through his revelation of the Holy Spirit to the writers of this stuff tell the writer how God did this ......

My guess is because probably we wouldn't understand.




The fact of the matter however is that

#1 An omnipotent God can do anything - including manipulate the laws of physics

#2 As we all (should) know, when we see the sun appearing to rise and fall below the horizon it isn't actually moving at all. In short, if the sun isn't actually moving when it appears to be, its equally possible it isn't standing still when it appears to be. In both cases, whether for Joshua 3000 BCE or NASA 2016 CE the language is valid because it reflects what appears to be happening to the sun (sunrise/sunfall) but does not reflect the physical reality (the sun isn't actually rising or falling).


JW

[sf]

"Goddidit" and that's all there is to say . . . However, here in C&A debate we do not assume that religious speculation is truthful and accurate (or authoritative or proof of truth).

What about the extra-Biblical claims of a long day in the distant past in other cultures/geographies?

[ttruscott]

2. Everything that is on the surface of the Earth is also spinning with the Earth, which is why we experience day and night.

At the moment of sudden stop, every object that was not firmly anchored to the Earth would continue traveling in the direction it was moving -- tangential to the Earth's surface.

You miss the mark by a faulty conclusion. The power that can stop the earth rotating can also stop the inertia of things on the earth. Suggesting GOD can do the one without being able to do the other is disingenuous at best.

Any person who accepts this happened knows that GOD can make it happen just like it was written if HE wanted to.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 11 by rikuoamero]

In which case, any claim said by anyone at any time, you'd have no way to either debunk or ridicule away, since all they'd have to say is "God did it. God suspended the laws of physics".
In my example above, Sally accused Nick of stealing her tiara from her bedroom. Without considering God, forensic investigators concluded there was no sign of forced entry and that Nick was seen in a diner a hundred miles away.
Now, by introducing a God who suspends laws of physics when and where he desires, now suddenly not even that counter-evidence is enough to counter Sally's accusation. God could have teleported Nick to the bedroom.

1) As I said, I make no case on individual miraculous claims of the O.T. I have no problem accepting it as a legend.

2) Your analogy requires adjustment. It was not just one person in the story who claimed to see the sun stand-still--it was an entire army.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 6 by Divine Insight]

The only question then becomes a theological question, "Why would an omnipotent God be playing these kind of tricks on humans? If he wanted to demonstrate his existence and power why not just speak from a cloud like he supposedly did in the New Testament?"

My reply to this thread is to say "Well...if you're going to believe the sun-ceasing story because an omnipotent god could have done it without causing a complete extinction event, what else are you going to believe because an omnipotent god could have done?"
My own answer to that question is - everything. At that point, to be logically consistent, you'd have to allow each and every claim from everyone forever to stand because...hey, an omnipotent god could do it.
There'd be no restriction.

I disagree. This is why I keep pointing out that at this point theology must then come into the picture. Theology is where the restrictions are exposed.

As you well know I don't believe that any of the supernatural events in the Bible actually occurred, yet I don't even need to demand that a supernatural God doesn't exist.

All I need to do is demonstrate why many, if not all, of the supernatural events that are claimed in the Bible are contradictory to the characteristics that the God of the Bible is supposed to have.

I confess that I have never really given this sun-standing-still event any specific attention so I'm not sure if I can give reasons why that particular event would conflict with the character traits the Biblical God is supposed to have. But I can demonstrate why many of the other supernatural claims made about the Biblical God theologically conflict with the character traits and abilities that the God is supposed to have.

So just because I allow for the premise that a supernatural God could do supernatural things does not automatically vindicate the Bible.

Many Christians seem to think that the Biblical God can just do anything he wants because he's the ultimate BOSS. But that's not compatible with Biblical theology. That might work for Zeus, but it doesn't work for Yahweh.

Yahweh is claimed to be all-righteous. Zeus is not. So Zeus can do unrighteous things with no problem. Yahweh can't.

Yahweh is claimed to be all-loving. Zeus is not.

Yahweh is claim to be omniscient. I don't believe there is any claim that Zeus is omniscient.

Yahweh is supposed to be TRUSTWORTHY. There is no claim that you can trust Zeus because Zeus can do anything he wants including killing you just because he feels like it. Yahweh can't do that and still claim to be "righteous" and "trustworthy".

So the Biblical God has far more theological restrictions than Zeus. And therefore it's fairly easy to show the the behaviors given to Yahweh are contradictory with respect to many of these theological restrictions of what Yahweh must be.

~~~~~

And more to the point, even though Zeus could actually exist without any theological contradictions, I still don't believe that Zeus exists. And probably the main reason for this is because I would also have no reason to reject Thor, or Odin, or many other Gods in mythology. They can't all be true, so it's simply more rational to believe that none of them are true.

But Yahweh is special in that he disproves himself. In other words, this fictitious character cannot possibly exist. This is not necessarily true of Zeus, Thor, Odin, etc.

We can even move over to something more abstract like the God of Buddhism. The God of Buddhism is perfectly logical and without contradiction if we simply allow for the possibility of the supernatural.

Does this mean that the God of Buddhism must then exist? It doesn't have a contradiction in it, and if we allow for the supernatural it's good to go!

Well, we're still allowing for the supernatural without justification. Therefore we can't say that the God of Buddhism actually exists. But at the same time we can't give any reasons why it couldn't exist. Unless of course we want to claim that the "supernatural" is impossible. But that's a tough claim for a human civilization that doesn't even know what constitutes the "natural" world? How can we even speak of the "super" natural when we don't yet know what's natural?

This is why it's far easier to dismiss Yahweh from a theological perspective than from a scientific perspective. There is nothing in science that demands that Yahweh must be righteous and trustworthy, etc. But those things are claimed to be true of him by biblical theology. So theology is the best way to demonstrate that Yahweh is a farce. He contradicts the very traits and abilities he's supposed to have.

[polonius]

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“Sun stood still� (Earth stopped rotating)

Joshua 10:12Then Joshua spoke to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, "O sun, stand still at Gibeon, And O moon in the valley of Aijalon." 13So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies. Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day. 14There was no day like that before it or after it, when the LORD listened to the voice of a man; for the LORD fought for Israel.…

Here, in layman's language, is an idea of what would happen if the Earth stopped rotating.

When the Earth began rotating again the reverse would happen . . .

Still believe ancient tales about the Earth ceasing rotation? What sort of mental gymnastics and/or willful ignorance of physics and astronomy does it take to keep believing tales by ancients who thought the Sun revolved around the Earth?

Would it not be more rational to understand that the tale is a TALL TALE -- a religious fantasy?

You are assuming that to get the appearance of the sun not going down that the rotation stopped. That is a false assumption. Other factors could be involved.

Here is an example, if the axis of rotation was shifted due to some outside force, from a pole pointed towards the sun, the sun would appear to go in a circle in the sky instead of setting.

YOU are claiming that the ONLY option is to stop the rotation then restart it. That is poor logic.

Yes, it would take a MAJOR event to cause that situation but all we know is the observation from the ground in one location unless you find out what occurred in other civilizations around the world at the same time from their recorded history.

RESPONSE::

Since the first seven books of the Old Testament are now believed to have been written between 800 and 700 BC, the most reasonable explanation is that we are dealing with fiction as in many other cases.

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 15 by sf]

"Goddidit" and that's all there is to say . . . However, here in C&A debate we do not assume that religious speculation is truthful and accurate (or authoritative or proof of truth).

What about the extra-Biblical claims of a long day in the distant past in other cultures/geographies?

Exactly what claims are made, where are they recorded, how do the dates match?


[Replying to post 16 by ttruscott]

2. Everything that is on the surface of the Earth is also spinning with the Earth, which is why we experience day and night.

At the moment of sudden stop, every object that was not firmly anchored to the Earth would continue traveling in the direction it was moving -- tangential to the Earth's surface.

You miss the mark by a faulty conclusion. The power that can stop the earth rotating can also stop the inertia of things on the earth. Suggesting GOD can do the one without being able to do the other is disingenuous at best.

Yes, in imagination, fantasy, science fiction and religion one can propose that supernatural / superhuman entities can do whatever the imagination can envision.

Any person who accepts this happened knows that GOD can make it happen just like it was written if HE wanted to.

Agreed – IF one accepts supernatural gods they can believe whatever they like.

Notice, however, that we debate in a sub-forum that does NOT assume gods exist or that god literature is authoritative or proof of truth.


[Replying to post 17 by liamconnor]

It was not just one person in the story who claimed to see the sun stand-still--it was an entire army.

Where are the accounts from that army attesting to what was seen?

Let me guess . . . There are no reports / records from the supposed army -- only a storyteller claiming the event occurred and was observed by an army. Right?