Is the Resurrurredction really a historical fact, or not?

[polonius]

In Paul’s oldest and first epistle, written in 51-52 AD, he states without qualification that:

“Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,* will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.g17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.� 1 Thes 4:15-17

But it didn’t happen. Thus we must conclude that either Paul or the Lord were incorrect.

How much else of what Paul told us is also incorrect?

Recall, it was Paul who reported the Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 written about 53-57 AD.

Was his story historically correct (did it actually happen) or is it just a story that was used by and embellished by the writers of the New Testament?

Since the basis of Christian belief is the historical fact of the Resurrection, let’s examine the evidence and see if the Resurrection really happened or can an analysis of the story show that it is improbable if not impossible.

Opinions?

[polonius]

[Replying to Claire Evans]

Claire Evans wrote:

I'm not surprised you lost faith as a Catholic. The Catholic denomination is based on devil worship starting with the Vatican.

RESPONSE: Really? And what actual evidence do you have to support your statement? Or is it just a feeling?

[marco]

[Replying to Claire Evans]

Claire Evans wrote:

I'm not surprised you lost faith as a Catholic. The Catholic denomination is based on devil worship starting with the Vatican.

RESPONSE: Really? And what actual evidence do you have to support your statement? Or is it just a feeling?

No, no Polonius, there IS evidence. A video shows a young man making the sign of the cross, with the downward movement stopping just under his throat. this shape is obviously an inverted cross. There is a diagram of a pentacle, Satan's favourite thing and this proves conclusively that the Vatican hierarchy are malevolently getting their flock to make inverted crosses. How bad is that, eh? You can't be up to these Catholics.

[Clownboat]

You cannot prove the Holy Spirit.

Me? No one can that I am aware of, yet here you are talking as if we should consider it some real thing. Why?

I suppose it is because I am asked about it. You don't have to consider anything.

I will not consider your claims until you can show them to be reasonable. Feel free to believe in ghosts, demons, devils, the Catholic church being controlled by Satan, or what have you. Just don't expect them to be respected until you provide adequate justification for said beliefs.

You say that faith leads to seemingly false religious beliefs. What made you come to the conclusion that religious beliefs are false?

They can't all be true. Therefore, they are all likely false.
Do you believe in the Hindu gods? How about Allah? Do you believe in ancestral worship? I could go on and on and on and I would assume you will disbelieve in all of them, except for the one you have decided to apply faith to.

That's a logical fallacy to say that just because they can't all be true then it's most likely none are.

I disagree and I have the odds on my side. If we can agree that 1,000 religions are false, why should I consider that the 1,001 religious concept is all of a sudden true? It seems accurate to say that it is ALSO likely false.

I believe Allah is Satan. I believe the Hindu gods may have been extraterrestrials.

This is a debate site, and sense no one asked you, it would be better to keep such things to yourself IMO.

This does not come as a surprise in any way, shape or form. Again, you pick a god (or had one picked for you) and apply faith. Can you show that any common sense is used?

There have been many non believers who have converted to Christianity so not all Christians have picked their faith or had one picked for them.

I'll take this as an admission that no common sense was used when you arrived at the religion you now serve today.
Does it not bother you to just have faith and no common sense when applied to choosing a religion?

I can recall me saying it is not possible to have faith not sure He exists in the first place? Didn't I say there are two different types of faiths?

You say lots of things, however, you have not shown that faith leads to true religious claims while I have demonstrated that they do in fact lead to false religious beliefs.

What proof do you have that all religion is based on false beliefs?

40 years of evidence that has shown all religious beliefs are based on faith. Can you supply me with a religious concept that does not require faith?

Can we be sure it is man made?

Can we be sure? I cannot be sure that the barbaric, ignorant, punishing god of the Old Testament is not real. I sure hope he is not real though, for the sake of our virgin girls.

You talking about Yahweh? Yes, he was pretty bad. However, he is not the Father.

Means nothing. You are just one of darn near 40,000 differing denominations of Christianity. Similar to knowing that 40,000 versions of Christianity god it wrong, but yours, the 40,001 version is the correct one. You need to do better then pretending to know who the father of Christianity is over any other claimed Christian.
To me, you are just evidencing that you prefer the type of Christianity that you already prefer, which is an obvious statement.

Nice dodge. I acknowledge that you apply faith to a god concept that you have no evidence for. You even claim to have a relationship with this god, but when asked to demonstrate this claim, you can do nothing but dodge it.

Then don't ask again.

This is debate, you are not allowed to tell me to stop asking you to evidence your claims. It's obvious to all that you cannot, so retract your claim that you have a relationship with a god. You can tell us that you believe or think you have a relationship all you want.

That's beside the point. The Canaanite God, Yahweh, is described as being the God of Israel thus the logical conclusion is that they are one and the same.

Trust me, I do not doubt that Abraham, from Er, come up with a god concept that was just a remake of the god from whence he originated.

Yet you assume the Father is Yahweh?

Nope. Your 'Father' and your 'Yahweh' are made up god concepts just like how man has always invented god concepts to explain the unknown (IMO). I just don't employ special pleading for all the gods.

Then why else, if we believe this to be true, would Jesus need to change the beliefs that the Jews had about Yahweh? Surely they would know God already?

No idea. I find claims that people reject gods concepts that they know are real to be illogical. Concepts they think are real, or that they have faith are real or different of course.

Or they just don't like what they are being told.

Again, this is illogical.
You are suggesting that a person KNOWS a god, but doesn't like what the god says so they decide to believe that the god that they know is real is not real.

It is not in the scriptures that God has a Son thus many would reject that. Some believed Jesus' claim while others didn't.

Humans have sons and daughters. I don't find it logical that gods that can create universes with words or vomit would have sons and daughters of their own. These gods are so human.

I think it is possible that Mohammed could have had contact with extra-terrestrials.

Why am I not surprised to read this?

Why?

Because you seem willing to believe just about anything. For example, you believe the Catholic church is controlled by a Satan.

The Bible is a recording of things people believed. Yes, people once believed that gods did all sorts of things. Like causing thunder.
You have not shown that people interacted with gods.
Think about this for a moment. Imagine a Greek person that was struck by lightning and survived. Can you imagine them thinking that it happened because Zeus was angry with them? Imagine if they wrote about this story in a holy book, would that make Zeus real, or should we apply common sense and acknowledge that lightning strikes things all the time without the need of a god?

So is it possible that Zeus was an extra terrestrial with advanced technology?

Come back Claire, come back.
Why does Zeus being a man made god concept not even seem to cross your mind? How many gods do you believe in?

Again, if the Greek guy that attributed his lightning strike to Zeus wrote this belief down, would that make Zeus real?
I acknowledge that all sorts of ancient people believed that they interacted with gods. Can we blame them? They were ignorant after all.

Not necessarily.

You're going to need to explain yourself here.

who were burying all their firstborn, whom the LORD had struck down among them; for the LORD had brought judgment on their gods.

I have no issue believing that ancient ignorant man BELIEVED many things to be true that were not. Like Zeus.

Not necessarily.

Please explain yourself.

Can you kill an idol?

No more than I can kill a rock. What kind of question is this?

And I showed that you are wrong according to Catholics. Either way, we would not be discussing god concepts today if it were not for ignorant men of the past. Men that assigned gods to thunder and lightning (and such).

Why do you feel justified to base your beliefs off of ignorant men and faith? Would you judge (not literally judge) an atheists soul deserves hell based off of your religious beliefs which seem to be nothing more than the writings of ancient men about things they thought were real?

I don't believe an atheist soul deserves hell.

But you do think that Mohammad made contact with aliens.
But you do think that the Catholic church is controlled by devils.
But you do think that Zeus might really be behind thunder and lightning.
Why oh why should anyone find what you believe to be credible?

First of all, Paul believed all the stories in the OT. He didn't know any better. This was said to explain why God would favour the Jews over others. Why would God show mercy to the Jews but not to the Egyptians?

How could I know? Why does your god not allow assembly if a mans testicles are crushed? Perhaps because ancient ignorant men believed this and eventually their beliefs were written down.

You seem to appear that all ancient people were so ignorant that nothing they wrote could be true. Just expand your mind a bit.

Ancient man was lacking knowledge or awareness in general, uneducated compared to our standards.
Now look up the definition of ignorant. You are asking me to expand my mind to the point where my brain falls out.

Actually not. There is no such mention of radiation in the Bible.

I am lost. Radiation in the Bible? Why would there be mention?

Therefore, could Yahweh have been in possession of something that, if in the presence of, would burn the face?

Yahweh is claimed to be able to create universes with words, why would he need a device that could burn the face?

There are inconsistencies throughout the entire book, why do you want me to try to explain this one? Heck, Christians cannot even agree. Many believe that Jesus was just the angel Michael, others the literal son of a god and yet others one in the same as the god.

I have yet to have a Christian explain the inconsistencies between Yahweh and Jesus. How can it be that hard? Yahweh was a god of war yet Jesus said those who live by the sword, die by the sword.

This thread is not about inconsistencies in the Bible, yet you keep bringing them up?

I don't know where the believe that Jesus was just an angel comes from. There is no remote reference to that in the Bible. There is no contradiction being the Son and one with God, that is being God incarnate. It's the trinity concept.

Talk to a Jehovahs Witness then if you want to learn that Jesus was just an angel. As far as the trinity concept goes, we all know Christians can't even come to an agreement there.

Thank you for admitting that we are discussing what ancient ignorant men believed.

You are assuming those pagan gods were not real. If Yahweh was a real being, then why not others gods? It is only must later that believing in many gods was taboo.

Take all the available god concepts and show me that just one of them is real please.

I think our discussion is coming to an end. This kind of make believe is of no interest to me and you clearly cannot show that you speak the truth.

Why do you automatically assume it is make believe?

It is not credible, and the claims from its supposed followers are not in agreement. Seems like make believe to me, but I'm open to being shown that it is not.

So because it doesn't interest you then it can't be true?

This doesn't deserve a response.

I believe I already have, which is why I ask you to show me to be incorrect. Show me please that you don't suffer from religious paranoia.

Goodness...that is most certainly something that cannot be done!

Agreed. Now please realize that religious paranoia would explain your behavior. That doesn't mean you suffer from it of course. For all I know, you really do have a relationship with a god and you are just unwilling to evidence it. Heck, you could have alien tech that allows you to talk to the gods right?

I don't believe God created the universe with words. Why do you think I should go about proving God over the Internet?

Because you made this claim: " Jesus will come again and prove He is the Son of God.".

I am asking you, how should I go about it? Can you suggest a method?

I cannot help you. I suggest you don't make such ridiculous claims. Stick to things you can evidence.

You are just not understanding the contexts.

Passing the blame I see.

It's not a case of Him not showing them what He really meant. Don't just read something and come to a conclusion because you think it means what you reading. It's interpretation.

What are you on about? I asked you to evidence the claim you made where you said that Jesus will come again and prove he is the son of a god.
Just admit that you said words you can't show are true and perhaps try not to make a habit of it. Doing such is likely a mechanism that lead to many false god beliefs anyways IMO.

[Talishi]

Since the basis of Christian belief is the historical fact of the Resurrection, let’s examine the evidence and see if the Resurrection really happened or can an analysis of the story show that it is improbable if not impossible.

The only surviving "evidence" for the resurrection is the four gospels.

Zero in on one question: Where did the risen Christ first meet his disciples?

Matthew: On a mountain in Galilee.

Mark: In the Upper Room with the Eleven.

Luke: In Emmaus, a village near to Jerusalem

John: In the Upper Room with the Ten.

Down comes the gavel. Case dismissed.

[Claire Evans]

As I said many times, through prayer. It is the only way to connect to the Holy Spirit.

Cool! That's how I did it too!

Do I still have the Holy Spirit, or does the more logical scenario ring true that there is not some Holy Spirit to have?

Devils can make people speak in tongues, too.

Please do not lay your superstitions on me. Show that Devils are real before you make claims about what they can or can't do. You are basically charging me with being demon possessed. I reject such a charge for something more logical and likely.

If you didn't even know that devils exist, or Satan himself, how on earth did you believe you could know the Holy Spirit? How can prayer help a non believer? I am not claiming you are demon possessed. I am saying is that speaking in tongues can also be done through devils.

Claire, not everyone is as gullible as others when they are offered up demons, fairies, leprechauns or what have you as explanations for things. Will you buy my ocean front property that I have for sale in Arizona, or would you do you due diligence and verify that what I'm saying is good? Why do you believe demon and angel claims so easily, are you a gullible person, are you a person that would prefer to not due the work to look in to claims, or is there another reason?

Now again, you make claims about devils. Show that you speak the truth or please cease and desist. This is a debate site, not an avenue for you to spew un-evidenced claims as if you are talking about reality.

Weren't you gullible for believing in the Holy Spirit, yes? You claim this is a debate site, which it is, but where is your evidence that you can speak in tongues?

Were you indoctrinated to believe that your conscience, or still small voice if you want to call it that is some spirit entity?

Then, my goodness, my life is just a bunch of coincidences then and just happen to be for my benefit in the long run.

Perhaps. However, I asked if you were indoctrinated to believe that your conscience, or still small voice if you want to call it that is some spirit entity? I was, were you?

The difference is that I never doubted the existence of Satan yet you had no clue.

Why do you continue to show poor reading comprehension? I believed in Satan, Angels and demons for 2 decades.
How many times must I and others tell you that we were true believers? I wanted to keep my beliefs, but perhaps I'm just not as gullible as others, or perhaps there is another mechanism at play. You tell me.

Maybe you were true believers in that you really believed God and Satan existed but were not sure. In the context of the Bible, true believers refer to disciples of Jesus who have no doubt He is the Son of God. They have their proof.

If I was so gullible, why do I not subscribe to the whole of mainstream Christianity? A gullible person would accept everything they are told.

Indoctrination comes from beliefs shoved down people's throats usually with threats or promises of glory. That is what I respected about my mother. She taught we about Jesus but let me decide things on my own.

And you went with demons, angels, aliens and devils as the logical explanation? Why? What evidence made you believe such things? I was indoctrinated to believe in them, but when I realized that they could not be shown to be anything more than make believe, I started questioning them as answers. What's your excuse?

When you have experienced these things for yourself, then you know. Why should I believe in devils without any proof they exist? A logical thought that there must be a source for all that is evil. Evil that is not necessary for human evolution.

If spirits can interact with our physical reality, we could detect these interactions. Why don't we?

My family is not crazy.

Ok?

Yes, you asked me what my excuse for believing in these things.

In fact, during a session of glasie glasie, a South African term for using a glass instead of a ouija board, it revealed that my mother and father would married yet they weren't together at the time. They laughed and the demon got annoyed.

No sure what Nelly is but I believe in aliens and Big Foot.

I didn't ask for more un-evidenced claims. I asked: Why are claims good enough when they are made about your preferred religion, but not good enough to believe other religious claims, nor claims about aliens, Bigfoot and Nelly?

But I do believe in aliens and Bigfoot as I said which Christianity most certainly does not support. Ironic considering references to aliens feature in the OT. I don't think all religious claims are devoid of some truth.

Okay, so how do you think you are able to speak in tongues? Maybe devils are responsible for that. And what exactly do your pastors claim?

It was a gift I received from the Holy Spirit. That is what we are told anyways, right?
I reject the claim that I have demons in me controlling my speech when I speak in tongues. Demons, spirits and what have you. Why such a propensity to believe such claims. Are you not skeptical at all?

So if you don't believe in the Holy Spirit, then what do you think is responsible for it?

The one making the action happen! Me Claire, I'm doing it, I'm in control. I no longer believe that it is some unknown language that only a god can understand or whatever you wish to offer as an explanation.
Seriously, are angels and demons better answers for sounds coming out of my mouth than me making the noises?!? You claim your family is not crazy, so why are angels and demons a better explanation?

Wait a second. Do you believe that it is humanly possible to speak in languages one does not understand? How does that happen?

Have you heard of the story of Annelize Michel. She was demon possessed and could speak languages she didn't know.

Seriously, I have ocean front property in Arizona for sale!

Later investigation determined that she was malnourished and dehydrated; her parents and the priests responsible were charged with negligent homicide. The case attracted media and public attention because of the Catholic Church's unusual decision to employ the 400-year-old ritual of exorcism, something that had been rarely seen since the 18th Century. The film The Exorcism of Emily Rose is loosely based on her story.

When Michel was sixteen, she experienced an epileptic seizure and was diagnosed with temporal lobe epilepsy. She was diagnosed as depressed and treated at a psychiatric hospital. By the time she was twenty, she had become intolerant of various religious objects, and began to hear voices.

The autopsy report stated the cause was malnutrition and dehydration because of being in a semi-starvation state for almost a year while the rites of exorcism were performed.[11] She weighed 30 kilograms (68 pounds), suffering broken knees due to continuous genuflections. She was unable to move without assistance, and was reported to have contracted pneumonia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Michel

Again, the most likely explanation in your eyes is demons and devils, not the dehydration and being malnourished or her mental health issues? Is it any surprise you found a religion to provide you with answers?

I know the story. It just doesn't explain how she could speak languages she didn't understand. Anything, I've already made a thread on this topic. But let's just disregard this one.

Either I'm making the noises, or a demon is controlling me, AND YOU GO WITH THE DEMON IDEA!?!?!?!?!?!?

In order to get to the bottom of this, we need to find out how you are speaking in tongues.

I have no desire to get to the bottom of this with you.
I already know you are more than willing to offer up un-evidenced claims as explanations.

Okay.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 1026 by Claire Evans]

I'm not surprised you lost faith as a Catholic. The Catholic denomination is based on devil worship starting with the Vatican.

Claire...that is a contradiction with what you have previously stated. Do you remember earlier discussions you had with myself, where I put forward the hypothesis that Satan is deceiving people into worshipping a Jesus, so as to lead people away from God?
Such as this thread?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=29032

In that thread and other conversations, you basically poo-poo'd the idea of Satan using Christianity, deceiving believers.
Now here you are saying Catholics are devil worshippers.
No. At least, that is NOT what Catholics actually believe. In our earlier conversations, I put forward the hypothesis that Jesus is a disguised Satan, but few to no Roman Catholics actually knowingly worship the Devil. In their minds, Jesus is the Son of God, one of the Trinity, and the pathway to God. In the mind of the average Roman Catholic, Jesus is the enemy of Satan.
So what of your contradiction? Is the Jesus of Roman Catholicism Satan in disguise? Is the Jesus of Roman Catholicism the same Jesus as Eastern Orthodox, Southern Baptism, etc, with those denominations focusing on different teachings and interpretations?

That previous thread I disagreed with Satan pretending to the Jesus so to lead people to Jesus. How does that benefit an evil being? You say to make people in the wrong thing but how does this benefit Satan? People being Christians are supposed to renounce the devil and that is contrary to what he'd want.

Regarding Satanism in the Roman Catholic Church, well, since Christianity has been established, why not lure believers in things that are Satanic by nature with them being non the wiser?

When did I say Catholics are devil worshipers? Quote please. I'm not saying that Jesus is not by Catholics but certainly not by the Vatican.

Isn't Mary the most important in Catholicism?

For someone who sounds so sure that Roman Catholics worship the Devil, why is this a question? To answer your question - no. She is venerated yes, but not the most important. Like pretty much all other denominations, Jesus is the focus of the religion.

As I said, you are twisting my words around. I did not say Catholics were devil worshipers. There is just Satanism that has been introduced covertly. Even in the Anglican church, some of these Satanic things have been introduced like the signing of the cross.

Saying she is the Mother of God must mean she is the most important. It is saying she is the most important deity in Christianity.

You just said it yourself. No effort was needed to lose one's faith. In other words, you did not put in the effort to persist.

I will consider that a slap in the face to both KenRU and myself, and ask for an apology Claire. You know NOTHING of the amount of effort we put in. Oh wait...you do. We've both told you NUMEROUS times of the years we put in, the effort to learn and beleive. I think KenRU said he was in longer (not sure, care to help me out Ken? I stopped believing around age 13).

Been through this with you and I won't again.

Catholicism is based on pagan worship. That is not biblical.

You know, that word is offensive. Pagan. It basically means someone who isn't part of the world's major religions.

3.
Disparaging and Offensive.
(in historical contexts) a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim; a heathen.
an irreligious or hedonistic person.
an uncivilized or unenlightened person.

You're now at the point of No True [strike]Scotsman[/strike] Christian, with your usage of that word.

The Roman Catholic trinity is based on the Egyptian one. It refers to Horus, Isis and Osiris.

Ancient Egyptian priests believe Osiris could transtantiate into a wafer. The wafer is in form of a sun disk.

http://presscore.ca/the-egyptian-roots- ... lic-church

Can you really tell me that there weren't any other factors that make your faith decline other than not getting the miracles you wanted.

Catholicism is based on pagan worship. That is not biblical.

How about the nonsensical teachings found in the Bible? The numerous contradictions? The complete non-appearance of this God despite YEARS of praying and asking for guidance? I never asked for miracles like boat-loads of cash or servants or anything selfish - I asked for guidance, for help.

KenRU says

So, can you consider the possibility that your assumption is wrong?

Claire replies

No. Do you consider you may be wrong?

So you can't even imagine it? You can't even think of it? Or you won't?
Here's a little story about myself, Claire.
When a teenager, my father was accused by my older sister of sexual molestation. He was removed from the house. However, for reasons I won't get into, I believed him to be innocent.
However, I considered the possibility that I might be wrong. I asked myself what I would do if ever I thought him to be guilty.
In other words, unlike yourself, I didn't consider myself to have the truth. I believed what I believed, but I kept myself open to the possibility of what I believed to be wrong.
Guess what? Eventually, I learned that my father was in fact guilty all along. Unlike yourself, I didn't say "No, I won't/can't even consider it".

The context isn't the same. I cannot give Jesus the benefit of the doubt that He is not practising evil when He actually is, hypothetically.

Sorry this happened.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1050 by Claire Evans]

That previous thread I disagreed with Satan pretending to the Jesus so to lead people to Jesus.

Wrong. According to Christianity, humans have to believe in God in order to fulfil God's will. A Satan disguised as Jesus would deceive humans into worshipping Jesus instead of God, thus causing humans to fail at the 'belief in God' part, without knowing it.

How does that benefit an evil being?

God's wishes are not fulfilled. Instead of humans worshipping God, we have humans worshipping Jesus, falsely believing that Jesus is the pathway to God.

You say to make people in the wrong thing but how does this benefit Satan?

Satan is evil, isn't he? If people believe in the wrong thing, this means they're not believing in the right thing. Surely this is what an evil being would want?

People being Christians are supposed to renounce the devil and that is contrary to what he'd want.

The Christians, in the hypothesis, don't know that the person they worship (Jesus) is Satan is disguise.

Regarding Satanism in the Roman Catholic Church, well, since Christianity has been established, why not lure believers in things that are Satanic by nature with them being non the wiser?

Why are you now agreeing with my hypothesis and not before? Why only with regards to the Roman Catholic Church and not Christianity at large?

When did I say Catholics are devil worshipers? Quote please.

Very well
Post 1026

I'm not surprised you lost faith as a Catholic. The Catholic denomination is based on devil worship starting with the Vatican.

To say a denomination is based on devil worship is to say that members of that denomination worship the devil.

I don't appreciate you trying to imply that you never accused Catholics of devil worship.

As I said, you are twisting my words around. I did not say Catholics were devil worshipers. There is just Satanism that has been introduced covertly.

Then please be careful with what you say. I am most careful with what I write on this site, because I do not want to introduce ambiguities. If you didn't mean to say Catholics are devil worshippers, then why say the 'Catholic denomination is based on devil worship'?

Saying she is the Mother of God must mean she is the most important. It is saying she is the most important deity in Christianity.

You have heard of the Trinity, haven't you? In mainstream Christian theology, God has three aspects, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Mary gave birth to the Son, Jesus. Jesus is God, or part of the overall God entity, thus she has the title Mother of God. I guess Mother of the Son just didn't ring as cool a title as Mother of God.
Even with that title, it is still Jesus who is the focus of Roman Catholicism. Mary is venerated as the shining example of womanhood, but not as a god.

Been through this with you and I won't again.

So no apology. No acknowledgement that you are factually wrong with the amount of effort us ex'ers put in?

The Roman Catholic trinity is based on the Egyptian one. It refers to Horus, Isis and Osiris.

Ancient Egyptian priests believe Osiris could transtantiate into a wafer. The wafer is in form of a sun disk.

I thought it was based on devil worship? Now, it's Egyptian?
You won't find an argument from me that Christianity recycled elements from earlier religions.

The context isn't the same. I cannot give Jesus the benefit of the doubt that He is not practising evil when He actually is, hypothetically.

Sorry this happened.

Then you're closed off to any possibility of ever being wrong. Remind me again which of us is supposed to have the ego problem?

[marco]

Regarding Satanism in the Roman Catholic Church, well, since Christianity has been established, why not lure believers in things that are Satanic by nature with them being non the wiser?

Do you suppose the word Catholic means universally stupid? It is amazing YOU are wise in the deceits of Catholics and yet Catholics themselves are taken in. Your theory that the leaders of the Catholic Church are Satanists is like identifying a trout as a giraffe. I have spoken to John Paul 11 and he exuded goodness and sincerity. If Satan does that, then good and well. For someone to tell people to be good and kind and live his life in keeping with that precept is not Satanic. When Christ cast out demons he pointed out that a kingdom is not divided against itself; so when the Church always and everywhere renounces Satan, the same applies. The people who made a video suggesting that well-intentioned piety is Satanism are themselves more closely allied to Satan in their hatred.

[Clownboat]

Didn't say Catholics worshiped the devil. It is just that it has Satanism in it which Catholics obviously don't know about. It's not the Catholic Church per se, like individual ones, but the Vatican and Satanic rituals that they have made. Here is an example:

This is a rather stupid video. It is also one that sells hatred, so you can hardly expect niceness from it. It illustrates the FOUR points when a person makes the sign of the cross. This has nothing to do with a pentacle, a five-pointed star. The hand descends, from head to stomach then to shoulders and describes a perfect cross, which it is intended to do. To associate this devout practice with Satan is a piece of nastiness.

I'm not saying because he is Catholic that he didn't have a desire to know Jesus. I came to this opinion based on prior conversation. However, in general, Catholics believe Mary is more important than Jesus. She is called the "Mother of God". In fact, this suggests God, Himself, is an subordinate of Mary's.

Dear God! This is utter, utter nonsense. When I was eight I KNEW that Catholics do NOT worship Mary. Worship (latria) from where we get the word idolatry, is given to GOD ALONE. Catholic catechism. Hyperdulia is the honour - NOT worship - given to Mary for begetting Jesus. And they don't adore statues for, as the Catechism says: "they can neither see, nor hear nor help us."

How can we discuss the resurrection properly when we don't check on the most basic teachings of a Christian religion? If you are going to discard or demean a set of beliefs, it is incumbent on you to find out from truthful people what those beliefs are.

Catholics believe that Jesus rose "on the third day," and later "ascended into heaven" whence he will come again to "judge the living and the dead." Does that differ greatly from your own view of the resurrection, etc.?

My church use to bad mouth Catholics too. Certainly not to the degree that Claire does of course, but they were treated like lesser Christians for the most part.

It seems to be a way for a cult to strengthen their perceived correctness in the eyes of the cult followers. It also helps to create an Us vs Them attitude that cults need to create unity within the group.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to Claire Evans]

Claire Evans wrote:

I'm not surprised you lost faith as a Catholic. The Catholic denomination is based on devil worship starting with the Vatican.

RESPONSE: Really? And what actual evidence do you have to support your statement? Or is it just a feeling?

Consider the source.
Mohammed apparently also made contact with extraterrestrials.
Is this the type of source we can trust about Catholics or god concepts?