CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

[tigger2]

CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
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Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
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"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
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The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

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Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly described with the word one or its equivalent - alone, only, etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to Jesus is the Christ or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

YHWH is the Son, or YHWH is the Firstborn, or, YHWH is the Messiah (or Christ), or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that Jesus is YHWH (the only God according to scripture).
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Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in three distinct persons):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" " Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
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(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
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(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
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(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential knowledge of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God

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(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God. - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 128 by Checkpoint]

Did you read the scriptures?

The Bible says "And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20).

Yes, I do read the scriptures, and I do hear 1 John 5:20.

The subject is "Him who is true", the One who "is the true God", and who has "His Son Jesus Christ", the one who "has given us understanding".

[B Bob]

[Replying to post 131 by Checkpoint]

You are not making sense whatsoever. It plainly says "In Him that is true is Jesus Christ, the One True God"

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 131 by Checkpoint]

You are not making sense whatsoever. It plainly says "In Him that is true is Jesus Christ, the One True God"

No, that is not what it says.

Read your own quote again.

You have changed or added some words.

The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father.

[tigger2]

1 John 5:20

It is obvious that grammatically the word "this" (houtos) could be referring to either the Father or Jesus in this particular scripture (see the footnote for 1 John 5:20 in the very trinitarian NIV Study Bible). But the fact that the true God (or "the true One") has just been identified as the Father of Jesus (1 Jn 5:20, TEV and GNB; and the footnote in the NIV Study Bible) makes it highly probable that "this is the true God" refers to the Father, not Jesus. The highly trinitarian NT scholar Murray J. Harris sums up his 13-page analysis of this scripture as follows:

"Although it is certainly possible that houtos refers back to Jesus Christ, several converging lines of evidence point to 'the true one,' God the Father, as the probable antecedent. This position, houtos = God [Father], is held by many commentators, authors of general studies, and significantly, by those grammarians who express an opinion on the matter." - p. 253, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992.

Notice how this trinitarian scholar actually admits that the probability is that the Father (not Jesus) is being called the true God here. He even tells us (and cites examples in his footnotes) that New Testament grammarians and commentators (most of them trinitarian, of course) agree!

For the rest of my study of all the uses of true God see:

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... -god.html

[B Bob]

[Replying to tigger2]

or, it means exactly what the word of God says! Jesu Christ is the One True God. The only reason to ignore the obvious is to not believe what God says.

The Father of Jesus is God Himself, coming in the flesh; Jesus Christ. A trinitarian scholar is a scholar of a post biblical doctrine that is errant, leading away from who God truly is; Jesus Christ. Therefore, it is no wonder someone that doesn't believe the word of God actually means what He says, would look at other probabilities that are possibilities, leading away form the stated truth.

Somehow, folks just cannot recognize that God, who is Spirit, could or would Father Himself in His creation of Humanity, that was created in His own image and according to His likeness. If He did that (and He did), He would then be His own father in His own creation that was created for Him and through Him as the firstborn before all creation. This is the difference between God and man: with God, all things are possible

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 121 by onewithhim]

You answered it, but without support of scripture and did not answer why man is made of flesh and spirit, if God is not both flesh and spirit (see Gen 1:26-27)

I answered your question that was a simple one, to a JW. "Is God flesh or spirit?" And I provided a scripture to prove it---He is Spirit. (John 4:24) This has been shown to you also by others on this thread.

And I have explained at least twice what it means to have "spirit." I'm not pointlessly arguing any longer with someone who doesn't bother to read peoples' posts. I have replied to you, using scriptures. You then turn around and say I haven't supported my argument with scriptures. I'm out.

[B Bob]

[Replying to post 136 by onewithhim]

and I have replied to your explaining that scripture does not exclude that God is also flesh. In fact, if God is only spirit, then man was not made in His image and likeness.

See Post 93 and let us start there.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 128 by Checkpoint]

Did you read the scriptures?

The Bible says "And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20).

I have to answer this.....then I'm gone. Read the scripture, B Bob. The "Him" in the scripture is THE FATHER (Jehovah). It speaks of HIS SON Jesus Christ. So the Person who is the Father of Jesus is "the true God and eternal life." Not Jesus.

[B Bob]

[Replying to post 138 by onewithhim]

can you not address Post #93 or do you want to bury your head in the sand

[B Bob]

[Replying to post 138 by onewithhim]

See Post #93 under "Doctrine of God"