CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
..
Athanasian Creed:
"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
....................................................
"Trinity, the Most Holy
"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
........................................................
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.
....
Challenges from scripture itself:
(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.
(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
............
(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."
(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly described with the word one or its equivalent - alone, only, etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
.............
(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to Jesus is the Christ or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:
YHWH is the Son, or YHWH is the Firstborn, or, YHWH is the Messiah (or Christ), or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that Jesus is YHWH (the only God according to scripture).
.................
Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in three distinct persons):
(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" " Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)
and,
....................
(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
......................................................................
(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
...................
(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential knowledge of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God
.................
(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God. - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.
Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!
CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
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Checkpoint
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Post #181
[Replying to post 180 by B Bob]
It appears you have me confused with onewithim.
The start of your post seemed to identify her, and the later parts me.
I made God out to be a liar with my statement?
With your assumptions yes, I guess so.
In reality, tell me in a different way how what I wrote does that, as you see it.
It appears you have me confused with onewithim.
The start of your post seemed to identify her, and the later parts me.
I made God out to be a liar with my statement?
With your assumptions yes, I guess so.
In reality, tell me in a different way how what I wrote does that, as you see it.
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Checkpoint
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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #182I agree, having changed my views on a number of issues over the years.B Bob wrote: [Replying to post 163 by B Bob]
Because I think it is important for us to recognize what we do, I want to expound upon what I meant when I said "being open is probably easier said than done".
In my opinion, most people study the Bible to prove what they already believe, instead of studying the Bible to prove what is true, then believing it. This is why it is easier to say or think we're open than it is to practice something that would cause us to admit we were wrong. Especially since, in many case, we've been dogmatically wrong for a long time.
Post #183
[Replying to post 181 by Checkpoint]
I am sorry, I don't know what happened. my post references this is a reply to onewithin, but you are right, this post was meant for onwewithin.
For clarity, you have no said anything that makes God out toi be a liar
I am sorry, I don't know what happened. my post references this is a reply to onewithin, but you are right, this post was meant for onwewithin.
For clarity, you have no said anything that makes God out toi be a liar
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Checkpoint
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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #184[Replying to post 163 by B Bob]
You see, you posed a what-if question and then assumed it was true that God is a trinity.
Share with me your views if you wish, they are at least interesting.
However, I would be far more impressed if you gave answers to the OP, and/or to the verses I have cited or quoted.
No, how we are made is not "in the image and likeness of the trinity".God made us in His image and according to His likeness (Gen 1:26-27). This is a HUGE clue. I have not seen anyone ask and/or answer the obvious and reasonable question: "If God is a trinity of three separate persons, operating as one in unity, in what way or better yet, how are we succinctly made in the image and likeness of the trinity? Can you answer this question by the evidence of how we are made (as one person of mind, body, and spirit)?
You see, you posed a what-if question and then assumed it was true that God is a trinity.
Share with me your views if you wish, they are at least interesting.
However, I would be far more impressed if you gave answers to the OP, and/or to the verses I have cited or quoted.
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #185[Replying to post 184 by Checkpoint]
Firstly, I am new at posting and I don't know how to frame other poster's quotes like you are doing with mine, and then reply to each one separately. I have to copy, the QUOTE . . .
Can you help me to understand how you do it?
QUOTE: No, how we are made is not "in the image and likeness of the trinity".
My response: I am not sure if I understand the question. SO, if the following answers or doesn't answer, please let me know. The trinity is three eternally separate person that are only "ONE" in unity of the three SEPARATE persons. Man is not made like this. We are made up of one; mind, body, and soul. None of these are separate. Our body and spirit does not have separate minds of their own that (meaning three separate minds and thoughts) is (are) separate from each other. Likewise, our mind does not have a body or spirit separate from it. All three of these are always together as one.
QUOTE: You see, you posed a what-if question and then assumed it was true that God is a trinity.
My Response: Yes, but I did it from the point of view of someone asking if it is true, then, then let us look at it as if it was true. Does that make sense to you? I wasn't assuming, I was stating, that if God is a trinity, we don't need to assume how He made man in His image and likeness, because we would know (not assume) and understand He was three eternally separate persons that He made us to be like.
QUORTE: Share with me your views if you wish, they are at least interesting.
MY RESPONSE: I very much want to share my views. These are deep concepts. Therefore, I feel like it is best to take it a little at a time. For example, I have studied, prayed, and pondered these things thoroughly for the past few years. It would be foolish to expect someone to receive it all at once (I didn't receive it this way). It would overwhelm most people. They need (you need) to chew on these things before you can digest it (or spit it out). I have a lot to say and (in my passion) I want to jump to deeper things, but it would not be wise. Especially, when you need time to consider what I have already presented. I am so looking forward to sharing more starting with explaining how, in the fullness of time, we are still living on the sixth day of God's creation.
However, I will say this or rather pose this question concerning the sixth day of creation: Keep in mind the creation story is from God's view (it is past tense), but has yet to be fulfilled in the fullness of time. Here goes: In consideration that God created man in His image and likeness, then man sinned and was no longer in the image and likeness of God, even banished from the Garden of Eden (type and shadow of heaven). God, being a God who devises plans to restore the banished one (2 Sam 14:14), made man in His sinless and innocent likeness again through the resurrection of Jesus Christ so man could enter heaven (Garden of Eden) again. Is it reasonable to believe God only made man in His image and likeness in the beginning of the sixth day, but saw that man was no longer made in His image and likeness and ended the sixth day of creation to enter His own eternal rest without restoring man and making him (born again) in His image and likeness?
Let's go a little at a time. Line upon line, precept upon precept . . . I say this because perceive you know what it is like to have God open up your understanding of the scriptures. Everyone that earnestly seeks knowledge and understanding from God experiences this; somewhere it says: line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little . . . Assuming (which I don't like to do) you have experienced and therefore understand that God opens our to the understanding of the scriptures through revelation of things we cannot see unless He grants it. If so, you fully understand it is one thing to share common knowledge and teachings of the scripture, but it is another thing to share revelation that God must grant the understanding of, and to the person, or people you try to share it with. It is a real dilemma.
QUOTE: However, I would be far more impressed if you gave answers to the OP, and/or to the verses I have cited or quoted.
My Response:
1) What is the OP?
2) For clarity, please cite the specific verse and ask the specific questions again.
Like this post
Firstly, I am new at posting and I don't know how to frame other poster's quotes like you are doing with mine, and then reply to each one separately. I have to copy, the QUOTE . . .
Can you help me to understand how you do it?
QUOTE: No, how we are made is not "in the image and likeness of the trinity".
My response: I am not sure if I understand the question. SO, if the following answers or doesn't answer, please let me know. The trinity is three eternally separate person that are only "ONE" in unity of the three SEPARATE persons. Man is not made like this. We are made up of one; mind, body, and soul. None of these are separate. Our body and spirit does not have separate minds of their own that (meaning three separate minds and thoughts) is (are) separate from each other. Likewise, our mind does not have a body or spirit separate from it. All three of these are always together as one.
QUOTE: You see, you posed a what-if question and then assumed it was true that God is a trinity.
My Response: Yes, but I did it from the point of view of someone asking if it is true, then, then let us look at it as if it was true. Does that make sense to you? I wasn't assuming, I was stating, that if God is a trinity, we don't need to assume how He made man in His image and likeness, because we would know (not assume) and understand He was three eternally separate persons that He made us to be like.
QUORTE: Share with me your views if you wish, they are at least interesting.
MY RESPONSE: I very much want to share my views. These are deep concepts. Therefore, I feel like it is best to take it a little at a time. For example, I have studied, prayed, and pondered these things thoroughly for the past few years. It would be foolish to expect someone to receive it all at once (I didn't receive it this way). It would overwhelm most people. They need (you need) to chew on these things before you can digest it (or spit it out). I have a lot to say and (in my passion) I want to jump to deeper things, but it would not be wise. Especially, when you need time to consider what I have already presented. I am so looking forward to sharing more starting with explaining how, in the fullness of time, we are still living on the sixth day of God's creation.
However, I will say this or rather pose this question concerning the sixth day of creation: Keep in mind the creation story is from God's view (it is past tense), but has yet to be fulfilled in the fullness of time. Here goes: In consideration that God created man in His image and likeness, then man sinned and was no longer in the image and likeness of God, even banished from the Garden of Eden (type and shadow of heaven). God, being a God who devises plans to restore the banished one (2 Sam 14:14), made man in His sinless and innocent likeness again through the resurrection of Jesus Christ so man could enter heaven (Garden of Eden) again. Is it reasonable to believe God only made man in His image and likeness in the beginning of the sixth day, but saw that man was no longer made in His image and likeness and ended the sixth day of creation to enter His own eternal rest without restoring man and making him (born again) in His image and likeness?
Let's go a little at a time. Line upon line, precept upon precept . . . I say this because perceive you know what it is like to have God open up your understanding of the scriptures. Everyone that earnestly seeks knowledge and understanding from God experiences this; somewhere it says: line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little . . . Assuming (which I don't like to do) you have experienced and therefore understand that God opens our to the understanding of the scriptures through revelation of things we cannot see unless He grants it. If so, you fully understand it is one thing to share common knowledge and teachings of the scripture, but it is another thing to share revelation that God must grant the understanding of, and to the person, or people you try to share it with. It is a real dilemma.
QUOTE: However, I would be far more impressed if you gave answers to the OP, and/or to the verses I have cited or quoted.
My Response:
1) What is the OP?
2) For clarity, please cite the specific verse and ask the specific questions again.
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Checkpoint
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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #186[Replying to post 185 by B Bob]
I said to you:
As far as I can see, you have ignored it, choosing rather to use this thread to share your own views.
As you usually have in your lack of actually dealing with the verses others, including me, have quoted or cited in posts to you.
You thus have a choice at this point:
1) Deal specifically with what I have just outlined, or
2) Continue to share your own views and ignore the contributions of others on this thread.
I will not now cite any verses, as I want first to see what you do with post #1.
I said to you:
To which you replied:However, I would be far more impressed if you gave answers to the OP, and/or to the verses I have cited or quoted.
The OP is the original post that started this thread, post#1.My Response:
1) What is the OP?
2) For clarity, please cite the specific verse and ask the specific questions again.
As far as I can see, you have ignored it, choosing rather to use this thread to share your own views.
As you usually have in your lack of actually dealing with the verses others, including me, have quoted or cited in posts to you.
You thus have a choice at this point:
1) Deal specifically with what I have just outlined, or
2) Continue to share your own views and ignore the contributions of others on this thread.
I will not now cite any verses, as I want first to see what you do with post #1.
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #187[Replying to Checkpoint]
Ok, now I understand and I am a little embarrassed because I did not realize what I did. I am vey new at this and truly just started posting about a week ago. So I would ask you to excuse me of my ignorance.
It would be helpful if you would give me a tip on how to show the original OP questions in a boxed quote, with my response after each of them (as you do).
Ok, now I understand and I am a little embarrassed because I did not realize what I did. I am vey new at this and truly just started posting about a week ago. So I would ask you to excuse me of my ignorance.
It would be helpful if you would give me a tip on how to show the original OP questions in a boxed quote, with my response after each of them (as you do).
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #188Correct, they understood Jesus, claiming to be the son of God, made Himself equal to God. However, the question comes to mind why they need any false witnesses at all. Since Jesus was claiming to be the prophesied Messiah, He would have come to set up His kingdom, whereby He would have been an enemy of Rome.tigger2 wrote: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
..
Athanasian Creed:
"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
....................................................
"Trinity, the Most Holy
"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
........................................................
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.
....
Challenges from scripture itself:
(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.
(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
............
Luke 9:35
(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."
(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly described with the word one or its equivalent - alone, only, etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
.............
1 John 1:5-11
(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to Jesus is the Christ or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:
YHWH is the Son, or YHWH is the Firstborn, or, YHWH is the Messiah (or Christ), or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that Jesus is YHWH (the only God according to scripture).
.................
Jude 1:4-5, 25
Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in three distinct persons):
John 1:5-11
(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" " Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)
and,
....................
(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
......................................................................
There are none.
(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
...................
They were still Jews. They still believed the Lord God is One (Dt 6:4)
(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential knowledge of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God
John understood who God was, God was the Word and the Word became flesh . . . John 1:1-14
.................
(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God. - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.
Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!
Last edited by B Bob on Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #189[Replying to post 186 by Checkpoint]
see my answers on Post # 188. I still don't know how to separate the quotes from a post from my answers. Therefore, my answers appear within the OP quotes.
see my answers on Post # 188. I still don't know how to separate the quotes from a post from my answers. Therefore, my answers appear within the OP quotes.
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #190[Replying to post 186 by Checkpoint]
Apparently my aging memory has become worse than my eyesight. I can't find my comments for parts G. and H. of the OP.
I commented on part A in post 16 above. B is in post 17; C in 18; D in 19; E in 20 and F in post 27. And then got sidetracked with other comments. So I'll continue with comments on parts G and H in my following posts.
For Bob:
To use the quote feature, highlight the portion you want quoted and then click on "Quote" in the appropriate box above the message box. Do this for every section you want to quote.
I often make up my message on my word processor before copying it to the message box. Then, after it is in the message box, I highlight the various words or sections I wish to modify and then click on the box I need for each: italicize [i], bolden[B], quote, etc.
It's usually a good idea to preview your post before you actually submit it. And don't forget the edit button if you see mistakes after you have posted.
Apparently my aging memory has become worse than my eyesight. I can't find my comments for parts G. and H. of the OP.
I commented on part A in post 16 above. B is in post 17; C in 18; D in 19; E in 20 and F in post 27. And then got sidetracked with other comments. So I'll continue with comments on parts G and H in my following posts.
For Bob:
To use the quote feature, highlight the portion you want quoted and then click on "Quote" in the appropriate box above the message box. Do this for every section you want to quote.
I often make up my message on my word processor before copying it to the message box. Then, after it is in the message box, I highlight the various words or sections I wish to modify and then click on the box I need for each: italicize [i], bolden[B], quote, etc.
It's usually a good idea to preview your post before you actually submit it. And don't forget the edit button if you see mistakes after you have posted.
