Water into Wine

[Zzyzx]

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Many Christians seem to consider the tale of Jesus magically turning water into wine to be a literally true story.

From another thread:

Did water magically turn into fine wine?

Yes. It happens everyday on a much slower scale.

If it “happens every day�, then the magical trick attributed to Jesus in bible tales is nothing special, right?

Certainly it was "special," for it was quickly accomplished.

Now that you have committed yourself, I point out that water does NOT turn into wine.

Anyone can test the hypothesis. Put water in a bottle and wait for it to turn into wine. Notice that it does NOT do so.

However, if one puts fruit juices plus sugar plus yeast into a jar, keeps the temperature within a certain range, and prevents contamination, the yeast will convert sucrose and fructose into alcohol – and produce wine. It will not work with water alone.

I KNOW this – and have several gallons of wine in process right now. It takes about two weeks to produce acceptable wine at a cost of about a dollar per gallon. My most recent batch will be finished next Tuesday.

Questions for debate:

1) Is the story of Jesus magically turning water into wine LITERALLY true?

2) Does water actually turn into wine in real life?

3) Does anyone want a proven wine recipe and instructions?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 11 by Zzyzx]

Does the link you provided actually disprove Jesus' miracles?

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 21 by JehovahsWitness]

The desire for fame is not lacking in the miracles. In fact fame is the point. God or Jesus performs a miracle afterwards people exclaim his greatness it is in every miracle. Turning water into wine in particular is a miracle that is specifically self egrandizing.

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 19 by JehovahsWitness]

Moderator removed one-line, non-contributing post. Kindly refrain from making posts that contribute nothing to debate and/or simply express agreement / disagreement or make other frivolous remarks.

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[JehovahsWitness]

DID JESUS USE HIS MIRACLES TO DRAW UNDUE ATTENTION TO HIMSELF ?

If the bible accounts are to be believed, that was the exact opposite, Jesus did not seek fame or recognition for himself.

- Jesus often performed his miracles in private with just the concerned family members and a select few in attendance.

- He often sternly urged those that benefited NOT to tell anyone about what had happened.

- It is evident for example in the account of the Wedding of Cana that the attendees were unaware of what had happened, and Jesus went totally unrecognized for having performed the miracle at all.

- Jesus is reported to have often travelled by the backroads, where he was less likely to attract attention, incognito on occassions and it's notable that by far the majority of his miracles were for the poor, the destitute, those that had very little if any financial or political influence.

- Jesus on a number of occassions performed miracles and left and the individual cured didn't even know who had cured him.

All of the above hardly paints the picture of someone seeking fame and glory for himself.

JW

To learn more please go to to other posts related to ...

GOD, JESUS and ...THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

[Yahu]

3) Does anyone want a proven wine recipe and instructions?

No need, my father had a small vineyard and orchard. We made lots of wine. It isn't hard to do. Basically we used 2 gallons of mashed fruit with water, sugar and yeast to make it in 5 gallon batches. I still have wine on the back porch that was bottled over 30 years ago.

Of course in ancient times, they had to use pure fruit juice because sugar was not available to aid in the fermentation. The fruit is to provide the flavor of the wine. Then, the wine was fermented in new wine skins to allow for expansion due to the C02 production.

Any fruit juice will naturally ferment with wild yeast. Wine was often watered down to use the alcohol as a means to kill of any bacteria in the local water supply. Watered down wine was a way to purify water to make it safe in those days.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 24 by JehovahsWitness]

This miracle was "witnessed" was it not?

This miracle was written down was it not?

This miracle has been spread far and wide to show how great and good Jesus is right?

Is the character Jesus not famous?

If he "sternly" warned people not to tell us what happened then how do we know what happened?

[JehovahsWitness]

If he "sternly" warned people not to tell us what happened then how do we know what happened?

This miracle was "witnessed" was it not? We don't know. Possibly not. There's little doubt that the servers who knew that the jars had water in them previously, and thus knew a miraculous event had taken place when they poured wine out of those same jars. Whether they witnesses the water transforming into wine we simply cannot say for sure. The narrative indicates that even if some did, they had no idea who was responsible for it because they would no doubt have spread the word to the point that the director of the event would have been aware. It seems more likely that only Jesus, his mother (and possibly some of his disciples) really knew what had happened at the time.

The guests didn't know, the director certainly didn't know, the some of the servers may or may not have known, the only people we know for sure knew exactly what had happened are Jesus and his mother. We have no idea who, if anyone witnesses the actual miracle.

This miracleThis miracle was written down was it not? Yes. So? Your point being what?

has been spread far and wide to show how great and good Jesus is right?

(see above)

Is the character Jesus not famous?

(see above)


If you want to make a point I think it might be a good idea to actually make your point rather than post a series of questions.

Regards,

JW

[DanieltheDragon]

If he "sternly" warned people not to tell us what happened then how do we know what happened?

This miracle was "witnessed" was it not? We don't know. Possibly not. There's little doubt that the servers who knew that the jars had water in them previously, and thus knew a miraculous event had taken place when they poured wine out of those same jars. Whether they witnesses the water transforming into wine we simply cannot say for sure. The narrative indicates that even if some did, they had no idea who was responsible for it because they would no doubt have spread the word to the point that the director of the event would have been aware.

Here is the scripture:

They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew

The guests didn't know, the director certainly didn't know, the some of the servers may or may not have known, the only people we know for sure knew exactly what had happened are Jesus and his mother. We have no idea who, if anyone witnesses the actual miracle.

This conclusion is not congruent with scripture. Where it states the servants knew. Moreover all the master needed to know who brought the best wine need only ask his servants...

This miracleThis miracle was written down was it not? Yes. So? Your point being what?

that it was known by more than just Jesus and Mary. Seeing as how the author is not Jesus or Mary

has been spread far and wide to show how great and good Jesus is right?

(see above)

this miracle among others has helped contribute to Jesus's fame

Is the character Jesus not famous?

(see above)

Despite your claims that Jesus was not looking for fame in relation to his miracles. It seems he got fame and recognition regardless.

If you want to make a point I think it might be a good idea to actually make your point rather than post a series of questions.

it seems I just did, but I needed your co-operation to make my point. Hence the questions.

[JehovahsWitness]

If he "sternly" warned people not to tell us what happened then how do we know what happened?

This miracle was "witnessed" was it not? We don't know. Possibly not. There's little doubt that the servers who knew that the jars had water in them previously, and thus knew a miraculous event had taken place when they poured wine out of those same jars. Whether they witnesses the water transforming into wine we simply cannot say for sure. The narrative indicates that even if some did, they had no idea who was responsible for it because they would no doubt have spread the word to the point that the director of the event would have been aware.

Here is the scripture:

They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew

I didn't say they didn't know where the wine CAME FROM you asked if they witnessed the miracle, I said I don't know and the bible doesn't say. The servants knew that the wine came from the same jars that had contained water, they must have known nobody had poured out the water and poured wine in, whether they knew more than that a supernatural event had happened we don't know, we can presume they did or at least some of them did. The account does not say "they new who was responsible for the miracle" much less "the servants witnesses the miracle happening".

If I know a bike came from Walmart, that doesn't mean I witnessed it being bought, much less being made.

This conclusion is not congruent with scripture. Where it states the servants knew.

Yes, but WHAT did they know? (see above)

Moreover all the master needed to know who brought the best wine need only ask his servants...

How is this relevant? Firstly, the Master presumed that the wine was provided by the groom. Secondly we have no idea if he asked "who brought the wine" we are not in a 21st century Manhattan meet and greet where everyone brought a bottle, the groom/grooms family produced the banquet so that question would were not likely to be asked. If he did he wouldn't ask a servant. And even if he did, that they know the wine came from water jars that had contained water, that doesn't mean they knew who was responsible for the phenonomen (as I have previously pointed out).

[JehovahsWitness]

This miracle was written down was it not? Yes. So? Your point being what?

that it was known by more than just Jesus and Mary. Seeing as how the author is not Jesus or Mary

So? Obviously the account was eventually recorded. When is a subject of speculation, some say 40-80 years after the events, others (myself included) favor a closer window. The point you are trying to make however is that Jesus characteristically drew attention to himself, using this miracle as an example. There is nothing in the account that indicates this to be the case. That it did not remain an eternal secret, doesn't detract from Jesus actions on the day since we have no idea how the story was transmited or by whom. Possibly Mary told Matthew years later, who's to say? What we know for certain is the account was written after Jesus had been dead a number of years.