Is God imperfect or simply indifferent?

[Justin108]

Assuming for argument sake that Mark 16:16 and Revelations 21:8 are both true in suggesting that unbelievers are condemned

If God fails to convince each and every one of us that he exists, this either implies that
a) God was unable to convince us he exists (implying imperfection)
b) God did not care to try to convince all of us (implying apathy)

Is God imperfect? Or simply apathetic in our salvation?

[JLB32168]

People also say they've experienced alien abduction. Do you believe these people?

I reserve judgment on that. Statistics prove that intelligent life most likely exists in the Universe. Physics can suggest FTL travel if worm holes exist. Something is occurring with these people. Of course, my beliefs allow that demons exist and they may be responsible for these things if the theology is correct.

I myself have not seen any icons weeping chrism despite having been a believer for 17+ years. I have about as much reason to reject Christianity as you do in rejecting Islam.

Okay

All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.

I am a Christian. The constraints of the OT are no longer applicable. You’re misrepresenting Christian teaching and if you have to do that to sustain your point then the point is weak.

[JLB32168]

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars . . .

Do you think that a person who tells one lie qualifies as a liar?

[Justin108]

I reserve judgment on that. Statistics prove that intelligent life most likely exists in the Universe. Physics can suggest FTL travel if worm holes exist. Something is occurring with these people. Of course, my beliefs allow that demons exist and they may be responsible for these things if the theology is correct.

You and I seem to be wired differently. You are far more gullible than me. But the fact that your mind almost immediately runs to demons screams confirmation bias. Have you ever considered the reverse? That aliens are responsible for the events in the Bible?

I myself have not seen any icons weeping chrism despite having been a believer for 17+ years. I have about as much reason to reject Christianity as you do in rejecting Islam.

Okay

Are you in agreement with my statement?

I am a Christian. The constraints of the OT are no longer applicable.

Do you believe the entity described in the Old Testament is a different entity to what you are currently worshiping?

You’re misrepresenting Christian teaching and if you have to do that to sustain your point then the point is weak.

What have I misrepresented?

Please quote what I have misrepresented, provide the "proper" representation, then tell me how one determines what the "proper" representation should be?

You accuse me of misrepresenting Christianity, yet you blatantly state that Islam commands the death of infidels. How can you be sure you're not misrepresenting Islam?

Do you think that a person who tells one lie qualifies as a liar?

Well it only takes one murder to be a murderer, so why is being a liar after one lie any different?

[JLB32168]

You are far more gullible than me. But the fact that your mind almost immediately runs to demons screams confirmation bias. Have you ever considered the reverse? That aliens are responsible for the events in the Bible?

Yes, that is a logical possibility. Personally, the existence of miracles done in the name of these aliens suggest otherwise, but it is a logical possibility. I just don’t think it’s true.

Are you in agreement with my statement?

I understand that you find belief in Christianity and belief in Islam to be the same now, but that you didn’t understand that difference at one time.

Do you believe the entity described in the Old Testament is a different entity to what you are currently worshiping?

Nope – I believe they are the same. I’m assuming that is supposed to have some import with me. It doesn’t.

What have I misrepresented?

You’re addressing Christianity but consistently using the OT. Being a Christian at one time you should be aware of the fact that the OT isn’t considered the fullness of God’s revelation, that its entire existence is the history of the Hebrew/Jewish peoples and is supposed to prepare the way for Christ’s advent. If you don’t understand that then you left something based upon a great ignorance of Christian theology. If you haven’t gone back to investigate it, it indicates a biased and narrow mindset. That seems to be quite common w/most atheists and other skeptics.

You accuse me of misrepresenting Christianity, yet you blatantly state that Islam commands the death of infidels. How can you be sure you're not misrepresenting Islam?

The exact quotes from the Koran are readily available to anyone who wants to find them.

Well it only takes one murder to be a murderer, so why is being a liar after one lie any different?

Well I don’t regard a person who lies a few times a liar. I don’t regard a repentant “murderer� as a murderer either.

[OnceConvinced]

I'm pointing out how the analogy is a false one. Perhaps you'd be better off using a different one?

I think the analogy is sufficient and is an accurate one. You disagree. Oh well, neither of us will most likely change our minds. I’m cool with that.

How is it possibly an accurate one? In your analogy there is someone physically there throwing out a tangible line. That is nothing like the real thing. It would be a an accurate analogy if it was an invisible man throwing out a line that can't be seen or grabbed a hold of unless you believe its there.

When I say "your own child" they could either be adult or children. My children are adults now but I still call them my children.

That doesn’t change anything I said. Adults who make bad decisions of their own free will can’t blame someone else – even whom they call “Father.�

It's not about whether a person has made a bad decision or not. This is about rescuing that person from the situation they have put themselves in. We don’t just let someone drown because they chose not to put on a life jacket or chose to jump out of the boat into the raging ocean. If we love them we do everything we can to save them.

That's clearly not true. I begged and begged God to help me when I started losing my faith. Didn't do an ounce of good. I cried out for that line to be thrown to me. It never was.

Aside from the fact that it seems you’re furious and disappointed w/an entity you no longer believe exists,

I am not angry or furious with any entity. At the time I was heartbroken that God had not rescued me. No anger towards God came into it ever. I did go through feelings of anger very briefly near the end of the 5 years, but that anger was directed at humans. People who had indoctrinated me to believe in Christianity. However I came to the conclusion that they were only doing what they believed to be right.

NOW, at this point in my life, I have no feelings towards any gods. I don’t believe in them. It would make no sense whatsoever to be angry or hurt by something you no longer believe in. I am just stating a fact, that I cried out in anguish to God on a regular basis over a long period of time and got no response.

What conclusion would you come to if God didn’t throw you a line when you most needed it?

What you may see as anger or frustration is my frustration that Christians can make such claims as you have that are clearly not true. God does not help people just because they want his help or need his help. That much is quite obvious.

lots have people have done the same thing – Mother Teresa being one of them. Why did they come to different conclusions?

AS far as I can see she simply remained there even though she no longer believed. Perhaps it was a pride thing?

But this is all irrelevant. The point is I cried out and got no response. Thus your claim that God will always help us if we ask for help or want help it is simply not true. The honourable thing to do is to withdraw this clearly false claim. Are you going to do the honorable thing and withdraw what is clearly a false claim?

Going on about how some Christians remained strong in faith is irrelevant to the claim you made. I was fully committed for over 30 years of my life. Until you have done the same you are in no position to judge me.

Did you consider the possibility that bad theology was blinding you to God’s voice?

What bad theology? The theology that Jesus died for our sins? The theology that if we repent and acknowledge Christ that he will save us? The theology that God is righteous and just? The theology that Jesus is the son of God? The theology that God keeps his promises?

Which bad theology JLB???

Please realise that the way I see the bible now is in no way indicative of what I saw when I was a Christian.

[Justin108]

Personally, the existence of miracles done in the name of these aliens suggest otherwise, but it is a logical possibility.

And the fact that these "demons" abduct people, lay them out on a table, do experiments on them and put them back in their bed the next day suggests they are not demons because... why would a demon do this?

I understand that you find belief in Christianity and belief in Islam to be the same now, but that you didn’t understand that difference at one time.

Please explain the difference in terms of which is more believable and why

Nope – I believe they are the same. I’m assuming that is supposed to have some import with me. It doesn’t.

You worship an entity that at one point commanded the death of unbelievers, homosexuals and those who work on the Sabbath, yet here you are criticizing Islam for worshiping a god that commands the death of infidels.

You’re addressing Christianity but consistently using the OT.

You're worshiping the same entity. Tell me, if you were a Jew in the year 200 BC, would you have rejected Yahweh?

Being a Christian at one time you should be aware of the fact that the OT isn’t considered the fullness of God’s revelation

We've been through this. God actively commanding the death of others cannot be excused as an "incomplete revelation". "Incomplete" implies something is not there that should be there. Instead, the Old Testament has something that should not be there instead. Notice the difference?

If you feel like discussing this point further, we can go on where we left off last time

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... ht=#811695

that its entire existence is the history of the Hebrew/Jewish peoples and is supposed to prepare the way for Christ’s advent

So killing unbelievers, homosexuals and those who work on the Sabbath were absolutely necessary in order to prepare for Christ's advent? Without killing unbelievers, homosexuals and those who work on the Sabbath, Christ's arrival would be impossible?

You excuse God's behavior in the Old Testament while hypocritically condemning Muslims for worshiping a god who demands essentially the exact same things

If you don’t understand that then you left something based upon a great ignorance of Christian theology.

"If you don't understand Islam's command to kill infidels, you left Islam based upon a great ignorance of Islamic theology"

If you haven’t gone back to investigate it, it indicates a biased and narrow mindset.

Implying you know a damn thing about me. I did investigate. I just wasn't as easily pacified as you.

"If you haven't gone back to investigate Islam, it indicates a biased and narrow mindset"

That seems to be quite common w/most atheists and other skeptics.

So unless we make the exact same conclusions as you, it necessarily means we just didn't look into it enough?

The exact quotes from the Koran are readily available to anyone who wants to find them.

As are the exact quotes of the Biblical God demanding the death of unbelievers, homosexuals and those who work on the Sabbath. "Oh but Justin, that doesn't count because it happened a long long time ago"

Well I don’t regard a person who lies a few times a liar. I don’t regard a repentant “murderer� as a murderer either

You seem to struggle a lot with definitions

[JLB32168]

How is it possibly an accurate one? In your analogy there is someone physically there throwing out a tangible line.

All analogies are limited. That’s why they’re analogies. The analogy is applicable where one is offering to save someone else and that person rejects it. That a person cannot see the rescuer is quite irrelevant. People say, “He wishes to rescue.� You don’t have to see it. You can elect to believe or reject. The person you can’t see reputedly teaches things we commonly call “virtues.� You reject that person’s existence in spite of what’s otherwise a good message. Oh well – that’s your affair.

It's not about whether a person has made a bad decision or not.

I understand your opinion. I reject it as invalid.

People who had indoctrinated me to believe in Christianity.

Yeah – those wicked people who taught you to clothe the naked, feed the hungry, visit the sick and imprisoned, house the homeless. I can see why one would be angry with such people.

What conclusion would you come to if God didn’t throw you a line when you most needed it?

I’ve already said what I thought – God always throws lines. Did you investigate other interpretations of Christian to see if you were rejecting God based upon bad theology? I bet the answer is “No.�

AS far as I can see she simply remained there even though she no longer believed. Perhaps it was a pride thing?

Oh well – no Christian remains faithful unless it’s out of pride.

But this is all irrelevant. The point is I cried out and got no response.

Were you expecting an audible or visual response. Orthodoxy teaches that God doesn’t reveal Himself to anyone. If one deems himself worthy to receive such revelation then the Orthodox teach that this is prelest – spiritual pride.

Thus your claim that God will always help us if we ask for help or want help it is simply not true. The honourable thing to do is to withdraw this clearly false claim. Are you going to do the honorable thing and withdraw what is clearly a false claim?

I’d withdraw it if I thought it was false. You’re asking me to violate my conscience to satisfy your opinion of what’s honorable. That’s not going to happen.

What bad theology? The theology that Jesus died for our sins? The theology that if we repent and acknowledge Christ that he will save us? The theology that God is righteous and just? The theology that Jesus is the son of God? The theology that God keeps his promises?

• I’m going to speculate that you thought that the Father was a wrathful deity that demanded Christ’s death to satisfy His infinite offense against his justice.
• I’m going to speculate that you thought that death was a punishment that originated in God.
• I’m going to speculate that you thought that God sent all people, such as pagans w/o any hope of ever hearing the Gospel, to Hell and that Hell was a place of burning created fire.
• I’m going to speculate that you thought that salvation didn’t involve doing good works.
• I’m also going to speculate that you had little deference for the Mother of God and the saints and didn’t believe that they love us and pray for your salvation.
• I’m going to speculate that you thought that prayers did little to help the dead “unsavedâ€� since they were in Hell w/o hope of any help from the living.
• I’m going to speculate that you held to a literal creation (in spite of the fact that even the ancient Greek Fathers did not and they thought this long before science confirmed it.)
• I’m going to speculate that you thought God was not impassible but was bipolar – extremely wrathful and ready to punish as well as reward.

Which of those are right or wrong?

[JLB32168]

And the fact that these "demons" abduct people, lay them out on a table, do experiments on them and put them back in their bed the next day suggests they are not demons because... why would a demon do this?

Or they make them think this is taking place. They descriptions of aliens certainly seem to resemble descriptions of demons.

Please explain the difference in terms of which is more believable and why.

I did that on the other thread in my response to you – the one on how Christians no longer accept the constraints of the OT – something that atheists and other skeptics find incredibly irritating given their propensity to build every argument on passages in the OT to the exclusion of everything in the NT – the book upon which Christianity is ostensibly founded.

You worship an entity that at one point commanded the death of unbelievers, homosexuals and those who work on the Sabbath, yet here you are criticizing Islam for worshiping a god that commands the death of infidels.

Addressed on another thread.

You're worshiping the same entity. Tell me, if you were a Jew in the year 200 BC, would you have rejected Yahweh?

Why should I – because you say that His actions then don’t comport with modern ideas? Since you can’t say that the actions were wrong then, I’ve little reason to defer to your opinion that they would be wrong if done today.

God actively commanding the death of others cannot be excused as an "incomplete revelation".

Sure it can, but you mention this active commanding of the death of people quite often as if you have a problem with it. Why do you mention it so often?

So killing unbelievers, homosexuals and those who work on the Sabbath were absolutely necessary in order to prepare for Christ's advent?

Apparently so. Is that some problem?

You seem to struggle a lot with definitions

No – I just don’t condemn people unto the ages of ages – branding them forever as some atheists and other skeptics apparently do.

[PghPanther]

If God fails to convince each and every one of us that he exists, this either implies that
a) God was unable to convince us he exists (implying imperfection)
b) God did not care to try to convince all of us (implying apathy)

Excluded middle:

God perfectly reveals Himself to anyone unless s/he is deliberately obtuse.

Let's use your argument for something else.

Evolution is the perfect explanation for how man arrived on the scene. Not all people accept evolution's conclusions; therefore, evolution is not the perfect explanation for how man arrived on the scene.

Excluded middle................The Biblical God is the product of human imagination and that's why it doesn't seem to fulfill yet another imaginative standard set up by humans of what they think a God should be.

The whole idea of even conceiving and assigning the nature of a supernatural being from ancient manuscripts and human imagination is silly.

Also, there are no perfect examples or explanations in science......get out of your theist absolute truth claim hang up....

To properly expressive biological evolution......gravitational theory, quantum mechanics, germ theory of medicine.......or any other results demonstrated from the process of science............it would be expressed as "the best explanation for understanding that part of reality at this time within that discipline of study and is subjected to revision and/or rejection if a better model is developed"........it is not a perfect explanation.....that is a foolish claim left to theists not science.

Theist have to understand something............

Science does not proclaim a an absolute truth from authority which can never be challenged and as a result must back engineer any evidence to fit their absolute truth claim model. But rather....science is always focused on where the evidence leads them in a provisional truth claim that is always subject to revision/rejection based upon any further evidence to the contrary....................

Absolute truth claims from absolute authority that requires back engineering the evidence to fit their conclusions is the role for theists to do with their beliefs and they are not subject to revision/rejection.....only the evidence is......

The above explanations outlines why science has dominated social progress since its discovery 500 years ago because it deals with working models of consistency and predictability within reality............while theism continues to backside into the historical dustbin of hopeful fantasy without grounding in reality because its claims of prayer and the supernatural have no working models in reality only in the imagination of the believer.

[Justin108]

Or they make them think this is taking place.

For what purpose would they possibly want to convince people that they were being abducted by aliens? You are creating the most absurd conspiracy theory to force alien abduction accounts to conform to your belief. Do you also believe the president is a lizard and that the world is being controlled by the Illuminati?

They descriptions of aliens certainly seem to resemble descriptions of demons.

Wow. Okay where exactly can I read more about these descriptions of demons?

I understand that you find belief in Christianity and belief in Islam to be the same now, but that you didn’t understand that difference at one time.

Please explain the difference in terms of which is more believable and why

I did that on the other thread in my response to you – the one on how Christians no longer accept the constraints of the OT – something that atheists and other skeptics find incredibly irritating given their propensity to build every argument on passages in the OT to the exclusion of everything in the NT – the book upon which Christianity is ostensibly founded.

I'm not talking about the OT, I'm asking in what way the belief in Christianity is more justified than the belief in Islam?

Addressed on another thread.

Can you at least tell me which thread?

You're worshiping the same entity. Tell me, if you were a Jew in the year 200 BC, would you have rejected Yahweh?

Why should I – because you say that His actions then don’t comport with modern ideas? Since you can’t say that the actions were wrong then, I’ve little reason to defer to your opinion that they would be wrong if done today.

Yet you call Allah's actions wrong despite it being the exact same actions

In post 66 you said that you reject Islam because "The message of Islam – their very revelation of God – calls for the extermination of infidels".

1. Your God commanded the exact same thing at one point, so how can you call Islam immoral when God commanded the exact same thing?
2. If Islam were true, Allah would be the standard by which good and evil is defined as, so using the logic you have consistently been using throughout this forum, you cannot call Allah immoral because he is the one who decides what is moral. So assuming Islam were correct, on what grounds would you be able to call the killing of infidels evil?

Sure it can, but you mention this active commanding of the death of people quite often as if you have a problem with it. Why do you mention it so often?

I didn't mention it. You did, back in post 66. Before your post, I did not bring up God's commanding of death even once in this topic

Apparently so. Is that some problem?

Yes because God is omnipotent. He would certainly be able to bring Christ to the world without killing homosexuals, unbelievers and those who work on the Sabbath