What is a soul?

[Skrill]

It is fact that the Physical Brain controls memories, personality. Thousands of other actions are all controlled by our nervous system, which is managed by our brains.

Therefore, what consensus is there for any evidence for a soul(s)? As the existence of the soul is very central to any belief or religion.

(my first post )

[JehovahsWitness]

Spirit, in Scripture, means "breath." And "breath" is a very physical reality.

The original Hebrew word "ruach" comes from the root meaning "breath" "wind" this doesn't mean it *is* air (breath is essentially air moving through your lungs and mouth/nose).

To illustrate: Canine comes from the root word for "pointed tooth". This doesn't mean a dog is a tooth. Rather it is a term that indicates something about this group of animals.

In a similar way, "wind" "breath" etc tell us something about what the bible is refering to when it says "spirit" ; the characteristic about what is being spoken about. And that characteristic is NOT that it is physical.

The bible encyclopedia "Insight on the scriptures" states under "spirit" the following:

The Greek pneuma (spirit) comes from pneo, meaning breathe or blow, and the Hebrew ruach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ruach and pneuma, then, basically mean breath but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense. (Compare Hab 2:19; Re 13:15.) They can also mean wind; the vital force in living creatures; ones spirit; spirit persons, including God and his angelic creatures; and Gods active force, or holy spirit. (Compare Koehler and Baumgartners Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, Leiden, 1958, pp. 877-879; Brown, Driver, and Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, 1980, pp. 924-926; Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by G. Friedrich, translated by G. Bromiley, 1971, Vol. VI, pp. 332-451.) All these meanings have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects.
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200004211#h=2

[JehovahsWitness]

Paul, in I Cor. 15, sys we will have have a spiritual body (vs. 44). "There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies " (vs. 40).

Firstly Paul never says "we" (as in all humans) have a spiritual body, he simply points out the existence of spiritual bodies.

Further, Are you suggesting that Paul is here saying that natural (physical) bodies and spiritual bodies are the SAME thing?

1 CORINTHIANS 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. - NASB

[JehovahsWitness]

why did you say earlier there was no life after death? I don't get it.

Because their is no life after death.; no "afterlife". There are only two states being dead or being alive. After you die, you are dead not alive in a different form.

When people die, they cease to exist, there is nothing left and nothing of them continues. This does not mean however that God cannot make them live again. This is called a "resurrection" in scripture. A resurrection is effectively God "re-creating" the person, bringing them BACK to life.


JW

What is the resurrection?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... urrection/

[hoghead1]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

In the Bible, soul and spirit have more than one meaning. They are not exact, precise terms. For example, soul often indicates the whole person, a living creature, which is described as a "living soul" in Scripture. Where the terms soul and spirit considerably overlap is that the soul is seen as the seat of emotions, as in Gen. 42:21, Deut. 28:65. The same is true of the spirit, as we find in Isa. 19:14, Num. 14:24. Also, the spirit denotes our innermost thoughts, as in Prov. 16:20, Mk. 2:8, Jn. 11:33, I Cor. 2:11. The spirit also can denote deep insights and wisdom. Hence, prophets are moved by the "spirit of wisdom," as in Num. 11:17. At death, the spirit is said to be returned to God, and the soul is also said to be sved, as in Ps. 116:14, 2 Sam. 4:9. In much of the NT, the spirit is seen as denoting the "higher side" of the soul, the yearning for communion with God. So, bottom line, they are not separate entities in Scripture.
Now, I don't know what Bible you are using. If you are using the New World Translation, from the WatchTower Society, sorry, but that is a totally bogus translation and therefore apt to lead to serious misconceptions.

[JehovahsWitness]

In the Bible, soul and spirit have more than one meaning. They are not exact, precise terms. For example, soul often indicates the whole person, a living creature, which is described as a "living soul" in Scripture. Where the terms soul and spirit considerably overlap is that the soul is seen as the seat of emotions, as in Gen. 42:21, Deut. 28:65. The same is true of the spirit, as we find in Isa. 19:14, Num. 14:24. Also, the spirit denotes our innermost thoughts, as in Prov. 16:20, Mk. 2:8, Jn. 11:33, I Cor. 2:11. The spirit also can denote deep insights and wisdom. Hence, prophets are moved by the "spirit of wisdom," as in Num. 11:17.

Yes, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that soul refers to "the whole person, a living creature". That is exactly right.

Soul is always used to refer to the "person" (individual) or their life as such but yes, if you are saying that the "overlap" as for example, "woman" might overlap with the woman's "mind" or "attitude" (the mental disposition of that woman) then that is accurate enough. For example, Genesis 42:21 refers to the "distress of [Joseph's] soul" meaning Joseph himself as a person was distressed. Obviously the verse is not referring to a separate part of Joseph that was distressed even though Joseph himself felt fine; rather it is just an idiomatic expression to say *he* (Joseph) the person was distressed.

[JehovahsWitness]

At death, the spirit is said to be returned to God, and the soul is also said to be saved, as in Ps. 116:14, 2 Sam. 4:9.

The scriptures referred to in no way denote or indicate that the soul survives death or has the same destiny as the spirit. NOTE: All of the scriptures supposedly supporting the idea of what happens to a soul after death are all referring to people's situation while alive (see below)

PSALMS 116:14
I will keep my promises to the LORD in the presence of all his people. - New Living Translation

PSALMS 116:2
Because he hath inclined his ear unto me, therefore will I call upon him as long as I live. - King James Bible

Because he bends down to listen, I will pray as long as I have breath! - New Living Translation

2 SAMUEL 4:9
And David answered Rechab and Baanah his brother, the sons of Rimmon the Beerothite, and said unto them, As the LORD liveth, who hath redeemed my soul out of all adversity - King James Bible

So, bottom line, they are not separate entities in Scripture.

This statement has yet to be proven scripturally. What the bible usage does indicate is that the word "spirit" is used in a variety of ways including to refer to the force or power that animates a person and that a soul is used to refer to a whole person (or animal) that ceases all consciouse existence at death.

JW

[hoghead1]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Ps. 116 and also 86 make it clear that the soul is the object of salvation by God, who can deliver it from Sheole. Dan. 12:2 also speaks of God delivering the faithful to eternal life. And, of course, Paul, in I Cor. 15, speaks of eternal life. So, yes, in teh Bible, souls do live on beyond the grace. However, the Bible does not give much detail. In many passages, Sheole is neither a heaven or a hell, jus ta place of sleepy entities. Other passages speak of a more glorious future. Either way, souls live on beyond the grave, according to the Bible.

Also, I gave you some strong examples where soul and spirit overlap in Scripture, which you have yet to address.

[JehovahsWitness]

Ps. 116 and also 86 make it clear that the soul is the object of salvation by God, who can deliver it from Sheole.

I am not disputing this. God can indeed save anyone He so wishes from any situation even from death, but this does not indicate that the soul cannot die nor that it is the same thing as the "spirit" which animates them and makes them live.

If, the soul is a person and a person dies and ceases to exist, how would you describe God bringing that person back from death to live again, if not saving them from "sheol" (the common grave of mankind)? Of course this cannot mean that the person was consciouse while dead, since the bible says all thoughts end or perish when an individual dies, but rather that God does not abandon the faithful in the grave but has the power to resurrect them.

[JehovahsWitness]

Paul, in I Cor. 15, speaks of eternal life. So, yes, in teh Bible, souls do live on beyond the grace.

(I take it that you mean "beyond the grave" as in "alive" although technically dead)

Just because Paul speaks about everlasting life or immortality why are you presuming that makes the person's soul an invisible and separate part of them* that survives death and is synonymous with the "spirit"?

If we are not to contradict explicit statements made in the bible or to impose a non-biblical (read: pagan) idea of an immortal invisible soul resident inside a person that escapes at death and allows that persons consciousness to continue although "dead", then the most logical conclusion is that the person lives for ever or is resurrected to live forever.

*Maybe I am misunderstanding your point and you are not arguing for the immortality of the soul since you have previously posted that you understand the soul to be "the person".

Either way, souls live on beyond the grave, according to the Bible.

You seem to be mixing "beyond the grave" with "out of" the grave. If a person is bought back to life, symbolically they "come out" of the grave, returning to life, to enjoy life again. "Beyond the grave" seems to me to indicate you are saying they never died just continued living in another form. Perhaps you can clarify what you are saying/what you mean when you use this expression.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Also, I gave you some strong examples where soul and spirit overlap in Scripture, which you have yet to address.

I already addressed this issues [ post 115 (see above).