What is a soul?

[Skrill]

It is fact that the Physical Brain controls memories, personality. Thousands of other actions are all controlled by our nervous system, which is managed by our brains.

Therefore, what consensus is there for any evidence for a soul(s)? As the existence of the soul is very central to any belief or religion.

(my first post )

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 180 by dio9]



[center]Reasoning from outside the faith:
Analogies and metaphors are all very nice, but what is the soul?[/center]

The interesting discussion for me is not , if the soul exists but , what is the soul.

I like both questions, and they are very tightly interrelated.
Why describe a soul if we can't prove that there exists such a phenomenon?

Never mind in this subforum.. that question isn't allowed.
So, we are bombarded by opinions.. everyone has an opinion, and in this subforum.. its nothing but opinions. I get it.

Well, I have an opinion too.
The soul is a very bad metaphor for ... ill defined concepts that some people take as quite real. And then, they struggle to make sense out of the Bible texts they think relates to the subject.

IF the Bible is authoritative, then... How does the Bible prove that there is a soul?
By fiat? Of course not.. But in this subforum, we are asked to pretend that words in a book are enough proof for a claimed fact of reality. Hence, talk about "souls".

Is the Bible the only reason people believe in a soul?
Aren't there other reasons that an outsider could hope to observe somehow?

Not being able to "perceive" a soul, makes me a bit of outsider to the faith, and I would love to understand what religious folks are talking about when they use the word... A mere belief without justification other than it says so in the Bible, or a true belief that everyone can know about.. including the outsiders?

Cause it seems to me that only people inside the faith can believe that the "soul" is a truth about our shared reality.


The actual topic of discussion.. what is a soul?
I agree with you there.

Christians seem to have trouble defining what the soul is supposed to be. They only seem to quote the Bible.. and unfortunately, the Bible is a little vague about what the soul is... The only thing that outsiders are presented with are analogies and metaphors. But what about that thing.. the actual thing.. what is that "thing" they call a soul.. And I don't really care to read another poetic version of what it's like.

Because to an outsider, it would make sense to conclude that the "soul" is merely an analogy or a metaphor.. for something that is extremely vague.

[JehovahsWitness]

That may be true of the JDubs, but it is not true of the ancient Jews.

Please be kind enough to refer to my religion by its correct name or not at all, I find it most disrespectful and discourteous to use the diminuative that you did. I believe I am not alone in being attracted to this forum by the high standards of respectful address and although I am not a moderator, and will stand corrected, I think its fair to say they would probably want that to continue.

Feel free to shorten the name to JWs if its a matter of saving time.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 164 by JehovahsWitness]

In the older parts of teh Bible, everyone, the wicked and the righteous, and all animals go to Sheol. It was neither a heaven nor a hell.

This is correct, it refers to the symbolic "common grave of mankind" where everyone goes. A place of total inactivity; neither a place of agonizing torture nor blissful co-existence with God, "sheol" was associated for the ancient Jews with inactivity.

Since this is a bible teaching it exactly corresponds to the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses.


SHEOL
The common grave of mankind, gravedom; not an individual burial place or grave (Heb., qever, Jg 16:31; qevu-rah, Ge 35:20), nor an individual tomb (Heb., ga-dhish, Job 21:32). Insight on the Scriptures Vol II

"abode of the dead," the "underworld," "the common grave of mankind" or "pit." It is said to be the destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead, as described in Book of Job (3:11-19)" - The New Wrld Encyclopedia

The state of the dead was one of neither pain nor pleasure. [...] Israelites and gentiles"all slept together without awareness of one another. - The Encyclopdia Britannica (1971, Vol. 11, p. 276)
[/quote]



It would perhaps have been better to retain the Hebrew word Sheol, or else render it always by the grave or the pit. . . . meaning the state of the dead in general. - A Dictionary of the Bible (1914), edited by William Smith

In a sense, the grave in a generic sense is a near equivalent, except that Sheol is more a mass grave in which all the dead dwell together. . . ."A Translators Handbook on the Book of Jonah, 1978 Brynmor F. Price and Eugene A. Nida p. 37

"abode of the dead," the "underworld," "the common grave of mankind" or "pit." It is said to be the destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead, as described in Book of Job (3:11-19)" - The New Wrld Encyclopedia

The English translators of the Authorized Version, or King James Version, translated Sheol 31 times as hell, 31 times as grave, and 3 times as pit.

ECCLESIASTES 9:10
http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/9-10.htm


English Standard Version
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

====================================

New Living Translation
Whatever you do, do well. For when you go to the grave [hebrew "sheol"], there will be no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom.

King James Bible
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

GOD'S WORD Translation
Whatever presents itself for you to do, do it with [all] your might, because there is no work, planning, knowledge, or skill in the grave where you're going.

JPS Tanakh 1917
Whatsoever thy hand attaineth to do by thy strength, that do; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

King James 2000 Bible
Whatsoever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, where you go.

American King James Version
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, where you go.

English Revised Version
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Webster's Bible Translation
Whatever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

JW

[JLB32168]

Who is asking to prove that a soul exists, exactly? How about you provide some evidence of that.. like a quote.. so we can check.

The OP asks for evidence of the soul as if its existence is questionable. The implication is that it doesnt exist and is the mere product of brain " a biological occurrence " and nothing more.

The Bible is authoritative on this board. This question in effect rejects the authority of the Bible which says the soul exists; therefore, the question is not appropriate to this board. If one is antagonized by the parameters defined by the board then the best solution to that is to refrain from coming to a board where certain presuppositions are givens and not open for discussion.

What I want to know, as an outsider to your faith is what IS a soul, and I think that's the question asked here.

Okay, well I said that it was the immaterial part of man that exists eternally and apart from the body. It will be separated at death and will be reunited at the resurrection of the dead.

I don't know, for example what it is that you MEAN by "immaterial part of a man" that exists OUTSIDE and apart from the body.

I didnt say it existed outside the body. I said that it will be separated from the body at death. As for what immaterial part of a man is, I would refer anyone with a lack of imagination to Disneys Brave, specifically to the scene where Mor'du, a huge demon-bear is killed by a falling lith; a translucent, lifelike vision of the human Prince Mordu appears, thanks the people for liberating him from the curse that turned him into a bear, and then vanishes into thin air.

If one cannot understand that then I suppose s/he never will. Whatever the case may be, the soul exists on this board and its existence isnt up for debate. [smile]

[JehovahsWitness]

even in the early days, the Jews believed in survival beyond the grave.

"The afterlife concept in Judaism does not arise from the word of God directly, but from historical, social, exegetical, and dialectical developments which occurred after the writing of the Torah (traditionally thought of as Gods direct oral transmission of His law to Moses) and the rest of what is known as the Hebrew bible" - John Martin Fischer, Professor of Philosophy, University of California

"In the Hebrew bible there is little mention of life after death [...] we find allusions to a netherworld called Sheol, where one goes after death but it is never explained in any detail. It is not until the post biblical period that new beliefs in life after death and of reward and punishment in the next life begin to emerge" - The Shengold Jewish Encyclopedia, Edited by Mordecai Shreiber

The Hebrew word "Sheol, " refers to the grave or the abode of the dead ( Psalms 88:3 Psalms 88:5 ). Through much of the Old Testament period, it was believed that all went one place, whether human or animal ( Psalms 49:12 Psalms 49:14 Psalms 49:20 ), whether righteous or wicked ( Eccl 9:2-3 )." - William B. Nelson, Jr, Professor of Old Testament, Westmont College

[dio9]

[Replying to Blastcat]

in Zen world they say find out for yourself. the soul is to be found in the sound of one hand clapping. best wishes dio.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 184 by JLB32168]



[center]Fallacious Religious Reasoning:
Vague criticisms, vague definitions, Part 2[/center]

Who is asking to prove that a soul exists, exactly? How about you provide some evidence of that.. like a quote.. so we can check.

The OP asks for evidence of the soul as if its existence is questionable.

Well.. let's pretend that it's not questionable.
Now... what's the evidence for a soul?

Or.. more specifically, since that's the subject of the thread..

what is a soul?

The implication is that it doesnt exist and is the mere product of brain " a biological occurrence " and nothing more.

So, let's not discuss that... fine.
Don't.

Do you have anything but criticism about how the OP is worded to offer us?

What I want to know, as an outsider to your faith is what IS a soul, and I think that's the question asked here.

Okay, well I said that it was the immaterial part of man that exists eternally and apart from the body. It will be separated at death and will be reunited at the resurrection of the dead.

Yeah, you've repeated yourself almost verbatim there. I didn't understand it the first time, so I don't understand it the second time, either.

If you were to repeat yourself a third time, maybe?

The problem you seem to have is when an outsider to your faith tells you that he does not understand what you are talking about... and asks questions, you seem to think that he is defective or something.

Asking questions is forbidden, I suppose.
Raises some doubt and we can't have that, can we?

Oh no no no no.

But how about people just answering questions as best as they can without attacking the person who asks it?

How about that?

What is this thing that you call the "immaterial part of man"?
Other than saying that it's there ( somewhere in but somehow not in ) .. what is it?

I don't know, for example what it is that you MEAN by "immaterial part of a man" that exists OUTSIDE and apart from the body.

I didnt say it existed outside the body.

Have you changed your mind?
Because earlier on.. you wrote:

"According to the source regarded as authoritative on this board, the soul is the immaterial part of man that exists eternally and apart from the body. "

So, when you wrote that the soul exists externally and apart from the body, you meant inside the body and a part of the body?

Ok, great.
So, I misunderstood.

You use "external" to mean "internal".. my mistake.
You use "apart" to mean "a part of".

Or have you changed your mind?

IF the "soul" exists in the body.... then I wonder where you think it resides?
I think it was Descartes who said it was in the pineal gland.

Any suggestions apart from what the Bible says?
Or is the Bible your only source for information about the soul? As an outsider, as an agnostic, I don't pretend to know anything about the soul. So, I have to ask those who seem to know about the soul. I guess Christians have a lot of opinions about what the soul might be.. how it's described and used in the Bible... lots and lots of opinions.

I'd at least like to understand your opinions. They aren't particularly clear to me.
I think I would need some more explanation of what you mean. Now.. for example, when I think of things that are immaterial, I think of thoughts and emotions.. concepts... feelings.. those are brain patterns.. and not things like a rock is a thing.

Is the soul nothing but a concept, a feeling, a thought?
Is the soul nothing but a metaphor, or an analogy, and if so.. what is it an analogy FOR?

Do you see what I'm trying to ask you about?
What is the NATURE of this "thing" you call a "soul"?

Before I could even ENTER into a debate about something, I'd need to know what the heck I'm talking about. You know.. if we are going to have a philosophical discussion.. defining TERMS is vital. Don't you think?

I said that it will be separated from the body at death.

Perhaps you mean that the soul is what we usually describe as "life"... but who knows, really? When we lose our life.. it kinda leaves the body after at death... Even the word "death" isn't really explained well.. what death, the little death, the metaphorical death, the first death, the second death... people are BORN again.. did they die first?...

Words... so many confusing usages of words.
But when I come in a subforum like this.. when Christians are debating scripture and taking the Bible as their final authority.. they never seem to AGREE what it all means.

Everyone seems to have different opinions.

Is the "soul" JUST something that will be separated from the body at death?
Or is the "soul" something ELSE?

And what IS that thing?

As for what immaterial part of a man is, I would refer anyone with a lack of imagination to Disneys Brave, specifically to the scene where Mor'du, a huge demon-bear is killed by a falling lith; a translucent, lifelike vision of the human Prince Mordu appears, thanks the people for liberating him from the curse that turned him into a bear, and then vanishes into thin air.

You just insulted people who don't know what you're talking about.. lack of imagination?

Please.

But in any case.. we who lack imagination are going to be explained your ideas concerning the nature of the soul by some Disney movie. Well.. I didn't see the movie, and I still don't know what you mean.

A soul is translucent?
A vision?

Sounds like a soul is some kind of group hallucination to you.
Is that what you mean by "soul"?

But just to be clear.. I have a very well functioning imagination.
Perhaps you mean that the "soul" is simply an imaginary construction.. I don't know.
But I can sure imagine all kinds of things.

IS the soul more to you than something that you can imagine?
Because I can imagine it too.. I'd imagine it better if I knew what YOU were imagining, though.. apparently, it's some kind of translucent vision.

In a cartoon movie.

If one cannot understand that then I suppose s/he never will.

IF one doesn't admit that people can learn new things, I guess they wont bother trying to teach anything. But why don't you blame everyone else for not understanding you?

Because, you can't be blamed for not making yourself comprehensible, right?
That would be our fault, right? So, if you can't really explain what a soul is supposed to be.. that's fine. You wouldn't be the first to fail at that.

Whatever the case may be, the soul exists on this board and its existence isnt up for debate. [smile]

Whatever the case, you have not done much in the way of proving or explaining the soul. But.... you believe it.

How nice it must be for you.
Too bad for the rest of us.

It appears that whatever the soul is supposed to be.. one thing that we can say about it is that if I don't believe in the soul, I won't be able to know it's there.. right?

Got to believe first, then it makes more sense?

I can't learn because I don't already know?
What an interesting knowledge theory you have there !!

[Checkpoint]

Im not sure exactly why were having to prove a soul exists on this board where the Bible is considered authoritative and it clearly says one exists.

According to the source regarded as authoritative on this board, the soul is the immaterial part of man that exists eternally and apart from the body. It will be separated at death and will be reunited at the resurrection of the dead.

If one wishes to debate the existence of the soul then I would invite them to take the question to the appropriate board.

I accept the Bible as the authority, and what it says about the "soul".

However, it nowhere says that souls are eternal or have existence apart from the body.

That's what people say. God doesn't.

Yes, there will one day be "the resurrection of the dead".

Those resurrected will have been dead, all parts of them, material and immaterial.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 177 by Blastcat]

In short, I think that mind and matter are one. I believe that all things, in all their aspects, consist exclusively of minds. I think that souls a or minds are best described as momentary drops of experience.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 178 by JLB32168]

If you are speaking about teh Bible, it does not regard the soul as something immaterial. In Scripture, mind and body are one, not two separate entities, with an immaterial soul trapped in a body. That's why teh Bible speaks of a bodily resurrection, as per Paul in I Cor. 15 and as per the resurrection of Christ. The shades in Sheol, weak and feeble as they may be, are still physical entities, as per Saul's encounter with Samuel via the medium of Endor.

"Immaterial" means having no extension, occupying no space. That idea of teh soul came from certain schools of Hellenic philosophy, especially Plato, who viewed the material order as something intrinsically evil, a big illusion. The early church incorporated many ideas from Hellenic metaphysics, and then Christianity came to think of teh soul as something immaterial trapped in a world of flesh. But that whole idea is foreign and alien to the Bible.