What is a soul?

Skrill · Post by **Skrill** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:54 pm

It is fact that the Physical Brain controls memories, personality. Thousands of other actions are all controlled by our nervous system, which is managed by our brains.

Therefore, what consensus is there for any evidence for a soul(s)? As the existence of the soul is very central to any belief or religion.

(my first post

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onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:40 pm

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 195 by onewithhim]

Good point. Let's clear out the fog. You are seriously misconstruing my position. So let me see if I can clarify matters. There are two issues here. Let's take them one by one.
Fist is the relationship of mind to matter. Many Christians have the idea that mind or soul is a wholly immaterial entity, immaterial being and meaning extensionless, which is somehow stuck in the world of matter, specifically the body, which is the source of all evil. That idea largely came from the influx of Hellenic metaphysics and standards of perfection into the early church. Predominant schools of Hellenic philosophy had great trouble with the material world of time and change, and so viewed it as inherently evil, a big illusion. Hence, Plato speaks of the body as the prison house of the soul, the soul of al evil. He sharply contrasts the reality of teh soul, with the world of matter, arguing the soul ha no extension, occupies no space. That way, it can never be harmed or hurt. This mind-body dualism persisted all down through the ages. It was championed by Rene Descartes, who stressed the basic defining characteristic of matter was extension; the basic characteristic of mind is thought.

However, in the Bible, there is no mind-body dualism, no immaterial, extensionless realm of being. Eveything has a physical dimension. Even God appears to have a body, as all body parts are attributed to God. Nephesh is in the blood, not some extensionless entity dumped into the body, wehre it is trapped. Humans are psychophysical unities, not an immaterial soul trapped in a body. Although the Bible gives more than one conflicting account of the afterlife, and is generally vague on key details, it does make clear that al persons live on after death and that they exist in a physical or bodily state, as Paul makes clear in I Cor. 15, for example. The shades in Sheol are not immaterial entities, as given in the case of Saul with the medium of Endor.
For my pat, I believe that mind and matter are one. There is no mindless matter or matterless mind. All things , in all their aspects, consist exclusively of minds or souls. Therefore, in that I believe we exist beyond the grave, I believe we do so in tangible, physical form, not as disembodied minds.

The next issue is the relationship of spirit to soul. Some people see the Spirit, both capital and small s, as denoting a purely mechanical, impersonal force. To start with, I have trouble with tat view, because it sets up the Spirit, both capital and small s, as an alien, threatening, depersonalizing entity that swallows us up. Furthermore, this mechanical-force idea appears completely contradicted by Scripture. In Scripture, the Holy Spirit denotes God as present in ourselves and our world. And I view God as a personal, loving being, not an impersonal, mechanical force. Furthermore, the Bible describes the Spirit as our comforter. Now, an impersonal, mechanical force can grant us to comfot. it's simply too alien to us. Furthermore, the Bible grants emotion to the Spirit. Read Paul in Rom. 8. He says teh Spirit prays for us with such deep emotion than we cannot begin to understand it. Does that sound like an impersonal, mechanical force to you? It sure doesn't to me. What does it mean to think of God as imparting his Spirit into us? It means to think of there being a very direct flow of God's own feelings into ourselves, which makes us alive.

WHERE does a person exist physically beyond the grave?

Also, it has been explained that "spirit" has several meanings, and it is the CONTEXT which must be considered when deciding which meaning fits. We must remember that all other scripture must harmonize with the particular verse about "spirit" that we are considering. It can be an impersonal force, and it can also be a PERSON who is a spirit---an angel, or even God. These various meanings have been posted on this thread many times.

Your presentations here are like none I've ever encountered, and replying to you is made more difficult by the fact that you do not carefully consider what I (or JW for that matter) say in my posts. If you did, you could explain more succinctly what your point of view is, by addressing a particular point that was brought up by me. You don't do that. You continue on trying to explain your entire general outlook, without specifically addressing a particular point made by the other poster.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:48 pm

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 181 by Blastcat]

I and others already explained that the soul has more than one meaning in the Bible. It can denote the mind and it is also used to denote the whole person, mind and body together. The reason is that the Bible views persons as a psychophysical unity. Mind and matter are one. Later on, via the influx of Hellenic philosophy, Christians came to view soul and body, mind and matter, dualistically, as two separate, independent, antithetical realities. The soul was something wholly immaterial and pure. The body was the source of all evil. Hence, much later Christian literature depicts the soul as something immaterial, extensionless, trapped inside the wicked body, which it is striving to be liberated from. So the Judeo-Christian tradition has produced at least two conflicting views of the soul.

You completely dissed my post # 195! I spent literally 2 hours putting that together (I had to re-post it after it getting deleted), and you apparently didn't even read it. If you had, you would take points from it and discuss those specific points, like any good debater or person in a discussion would do.

Don't EVER say that a JW couldn't answer you. We have answered in great detail, with scriptural support. It is you who doesn't answer us, and when someone continues to be like that there is no reason to go on beating our heads against a wall. Maybe JW will keep on, but I'm done.

](*,)

hoghead1 · Post by **hoghead1** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:48 pm

[Replying to post 206 by JehovahsWitness]

I don't think you quite understand my point and the issues involved here.

The Bible presents a highly anthropomorphic image of God. Either these metaphors doe in fact correspond to the actual reality or God, or they are meaningless, reveal nothing. The problem is that early on, the church incorporated Hellenic metaphysics and standards of perfection, which enshrined the immune and the immutable. Hence, the church fathers wrote off many anthropomorphic metaphors as just God talking "baby talk" (Calvin's term) to us. Hence, Calvin, preaching on the wrath of God, stressed to his congregation that of course, God can feel no anger. Biblical references to the wrath and anger of God are just mere figures of speech that have nothing to do with the actual reality of God, who remains blissfully indifferent toward the world. The same was true with references to God's compassion. Both St. Anselm and St. Thomas Aquinas argued God, in actual point fact, is without any emotion and therefore without any compassion whatsoever. Again, we are left with a cold, aloof God. But who can pout any faith ins a static, aloof passionless absolute? I sure can't. Who would want to be united with a static, aloof passionless absolute? I sure don't.

Immaterial means having no extension and also no mass. it would be impossible for anything immaterial to move anything physical, since F + MA. Also, to move something physical, you need to occupy space, make contact with it. That's why Descartes, in his mind-body dualism, could not explain how mind and body interact. If you are thinking of God as a wholly immaterial being, then you are I can easily beat God in a bicycle race, simply because God has no way of peddling the bike.

When the Bible speaks of God as Spirit, it also likens Spirit to breath. And breath is something very physical.

Paul makes, in I Cor. 15, makes it very clear that the is more than one type of body or physical existence, that our resurrection is not to some immaterial plane, but to some kind of superbody. That's why he talks about spiritual bodies.

hoghead1 · Post by **hoghead1** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:56 pm

[Replying to post 209 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes, I am saying that even atoms have tiny minds. There is no passive, inert, dead matter. Momentary drops of experience are the atoms, the basic building blocks of the universe. The Bible says very little about nature, at it is mostly concerned with God's salvific acts in human history. However, it does present animals as living souls; and Paul, in Rom. 8, says that all of creation groans.

hoghead1 · Post by **hoghead1** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:01 pm

[Replying to post 221 by onewithhim]

I am simply trying to give you as complete a picture as I can as to where I am coming from in order to fully address points you have raised. If you feel I have missed something you said, then the burden falls upon you to raise that specific point, bring it to my attention, and we will take it from there.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:05 pm

hoghead1 wrote:
Yes, I am saying that even atoms have tiny minds. There is no passive, inert, dead matter. Momentary drops of experience are the atoms, the basic building blocks of the universe. The Bible says very little about nature, at it is mostly concerned with God's salvific acts in human history. However, it does present animals as living souls; and Paul, in Rom. 8, says that all of creation groans.

So if the soul is the whole person (with personality, memories, characteristics, likes, dislikes, desires and every other aspect that makes "a whole person") not an atom of the person, how does the person/the soul which you say is entirely physical, survive death ?

Or are you saying that the person (the mind, the intelligence, the consciousness, the memories, the likes, desires, dislikes, personality) continue to exist as a whole person within the atoms that his body was formally made of. Remembering that those atoms go back to the ground and eventually become part of say a carrot that is eaten by ANTOHTER person...

So is heaven being a whole person in a carrot?

JW

hoghead1 · Post by **hoghead1** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:10 pm

[Replying to post 222 by onewithhim]

I don't know what you mean by "dissed." I looked back and found I did respond to your Post 195. Again, if you feel I overlooked something you said, you should bring it up. If you want to go off in a huff, you are welcome to do so. However, that contributes nothing to the discussion and doesn't show me where you might be having some difficulty with what I am saying. If you wish to object to what I am saying, OK, fine. that's what discussion groups are all about. Then you need to go through my points, one by one, and show me a solid counterargument.

You put two hours in, writing on your post? OK, fine. But so what? You have worked hard on your posts, I know I have worked on mine as well, and so has everyone else here. That simply goes with the territory.

hoghead1 · Post by **hoghead1** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:14 pm

[Replying to post 221 by onewithhim]

Where does a person exist physically beyond the grave? Well, you better ask Paul and also Christ that question. They simply said in Paradise or Heaven or Hell (Lk. 16) and they didn't tell me where that was.

hoghead1 · Post by **hoghead1** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:40 pm

[Replying to post 226 by JehovahsWitness]

Biblically, you would have to ask Paul that. He said we will all be resurrected with a new, superdooper body. But he didn't tell me how. It is true, however, that you are I continue to move from one body into another. Where is your body when you were ten years old? Moment to moment, our bodies are different. So the idea of transitioning from one body to another is not al all foreign to nature or to our experience.

When you are talking about atoms here, you are thinking of them in the Newtonian sense of being hard, changeless bits of matter. I am moving in another direction. I am viewing the basic building blocks of the universe as drops of perishing experiences. An atom is a name for a society of perishing occasions or experiences. No thinker thinks twice. No atom "atoms" twice. The "atoms" left in a corpse are not the same atoms that were there when that guy was alive.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:51 pm

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 226 by JehovahsWitness]

Biblically, you would have to ask Paul that. He said we will all be resurrected with a new, superdooper body.

Yes indeed he did. What he did NOT say is that humans survive beyond the grave, that was you, which is why I'm asking (you not Paul) to explain yourself.

If you believe the soul is entirely physical and that a soul is the whole person, and that the whole person survives death and continues living (as a soul/whole person) "beyond the grave" then how is this possible when the physical body ceases to exist as such with death? My issue is not with Paul's point of dying (and coming back to life later). My issue is with yours that one doesn't die at all but lives on "beyond the grave".

hoghead1 wrote: The "atoms" left in a corpse are not the same atoms that were there when that guy was alive.

Right so, where is the soul (the whole physical person) that according to you "surivives" (lives on without being destroyed) beyond the grave? You were the one that mentioned "atoms" when I was asking about the soul, not me. I'm just trying to clear the fog of your belief that the soul is the whole physical person that at the same time survives beyond the grave which by definition is the end of the whole physical person.