What If...?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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theStudent
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What If...?

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Post by theStudent »

Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.

During my research I discovered that lately, just over the last decade or so, a lot of informations has been surfacing about fake fossils.
In fact it has now become common place for fossils sold at museums to be checked for genuineness.
I find this interesting.

Why now, is this happening?
Could it be that evidence as it always does, is now surfacing?

For example
Remember the dinosaur hoax - the one that was said to be put together using different bones?
It has recently been found out that it wasn't a hoax after all.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/02/ ... ecies.html

That is quite interesting.

The fossils aren't the only things that were/are claimed to be fake.
There are the drawings, and pictures as well.
Right now, I am going through a very long document considered a case against some of Darwins picture illustrations.
But have you ever come across this one?

Pictures from the past powerfully shape current views of the world. In books, television programs, and websites, new images appear alongside others that have survived from decades ago. Among the most famous are drawings of embryos by the Darwinist Ernst Haeckel in which humans and other vertebrates begin identical, then diverge toward their adult forms. But these icons of evolution are notorious, too: soon after their publication in 1868, a colleague alleged fraud, and Haeckels many enemies have repeated the charge ever since. His embryos nevertheless became a textbook staple until, in 1997, a biologist accused him again, and creationist advocates of intelligent design forced his figures out. How could the most controversial pictures in the history of science have become some of the most widely seen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haec ... eks4-6.jpg
English: The pictures illustrate Ernst Haeckel's biogenetic law. In the beginning embryos of different species look remarkable similar, later different characteristics develop. The images initiated controversies and charges of fraud.

All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.

My question here, isn't whether he did lie or not, but rather, Does this not place evolutionists in the same position as the Christians they claim are believing in fables?

Consider:
Christians accept the Bible, as the word of God.
Here are just a few facts about the Bible.
With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time.
It has estimated annual sales of 100 million copies.
It has been a major influence on literature and history, especially in the West where the Gutenberg Bible was the first mass-printed book.
It was the first book ever printed using movable type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Archaeological findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, also called the Qumran Caves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The evidence is there however, that the book we hold in our hand today (the Bible), contains information written centuries ago.

Atheist call the book fables - the reason I have yet to find out.
Maybe one of the reasons is that they have not seen God, or seen him write any book - whatever.
So they claim that Christians' belief in them and what they present is blind faith, and belief in stories.

However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?


I'm just interested in you different opinions and thoughts, on the above.
Here is a nice short video of someone's opinion. Reasonable too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

hoghead1
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Re: What If...?

Post #681

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 676 by theStudent]

No thank you. I am very familiar with he WatchTower Society. it view it as an anti-intellectual cult. If you want to go with that sort of thing, that is your privilege. But leave me out of it.

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Re: What If...?

Post #682

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 678 by hoghead1]

Thank you.
I'm glad we have a clear understanding.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Re: What If...?

Post #683

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 679 by theStudent]

Good. Now that we do,now that you recognize that I and I am sure others here are not going to accept WatchTower Society material as anywhere near valid science, how do you plan to change your strategy? How do you plan to meet our request for more solid authority and evidence?

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Re: What If...?

Post #684

Post by theStudent »

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 679 by theStudent]

Good. Now that we do,now that you recognize that I and I am sure others here are not going to accept WatchTower Society material as anywhere near valid science, how do you plan to change your strategy? How do you plan to meet our request for more solid authority and evidence?
I understand you, but you apparently don't understand me.
I suggest you read Post 676 completely if you haven't done so.
And respond to it if you are interested in anything I have to say.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Re: What If...?

Post #685

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 681 by theStudent]

Look, I have given the matter serious study. I had had extensive experience with the Witnesses and also with the first-hand literature, such as "Reasonings from the Scriptures, one of the official WatchTower guidebooks for field service. it is very obvious that the WatchTower Society has a long you-know-what list of what it takes to be apostasy, most especially the Christian religion, other religions, philosophers, intellectuals, evolutionary thinkers, to name but a few. Researchers generally describe the WatchTower Society as an anti-intellectual, anti-social cult which seeks to isolate its members form the rest of the world, which it views as all under teh Devil anyway. My own findings compel me to agree. While I believe in religious freedom and champion the rights of individuals to embrace such cults, I also feel I have the right and responsibility to stress such irrational, cult-type ideology has no real currency in serious scholarly scientific or theological discussions.

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Re: What If...?

Post #686

Post by theStudent »

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 681 by theStudent]

Look, I have given the matter serious study. I had had extensive experience with the Witnesses and also with the first-hand literature, such as "Reasonings from the Scriptures, one of the official WatchTower guidebooks for field service. it is very obvious that the WatchTower Society has a long you-know-what list of what it takes to be apostasy, most especially the Christian religion, other religions, philosophers, intellectuals, evolutionary thinkers, to name but a few. Researchers generally describe the WatchTower Society as an anti-intellectual, anti-social cult which seeks to isolate its members form the rest of the world, which it views as all under teh Devil anyway. My own findings compel me to agree. While I believe in religious freedom and champion the rights of individuals to embrace such cults, I also feel I have the right and responsibility to stress such irrational, cult-type ideology has no real currency in serious scholarly scientific or theological discussions.
Did you even read my post?
I want to suggest to you that you didn't.
If you did, give me an average of what percentage even has anything to do with the Watchtower Society, or Jehovah's Witnesses.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Re: What If...?

Post #687

Post by RonE »

[Replying to post 683 by theStudent]
theStudent wrote:
hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 681 by theStudent]

Look, I have given the matter serious study. I had had extensive experience with the Witnesses and also with the first-hand literature, such as "Reasonings from the Scriptures, one of the official WatchTower guidebooks for field service. it is very obvious that the WatchTower Society has a long you-know-what list of what it takes to be apostasy, most especially the Christian religion, other religions, philosophers, intellectuals, evolutionary thinkers, to name but a few. Researchers generally describe the WatchTower Society as an anti-intellectual, anti-social cult which seeks to isolate its members form the rest of the world, which it views as all under teh Devil anyway. My own findings compel me to agree. While I believe in religious freedom and champion the rights of individuals to embrace such cults, I also feel I have the right and responsibility to stress such irrational, cult-type ideology has no real currency in serious scholarly scientific or theological discussions.
Did you even read my post?
I want to suggest to you that you didn't.
If you did, give me an average of what percentage even has anything to do with the Watchtower Society, or Jehovah's Witnesses.
So, do you disavow any knowledge of or affiliation with both of these organizations? Do you disavow any interest or knowledge of their publications? Do you disavow following their dogma?
theStudent wrote:The advocates of evolution, seeking to deny the owner the credit due
The real problem with your post # 676 of course is that despite having had plenty of opportunities you still have not provided any scientific evidence for your god, this supposed creator. You've got the opportunity right now, right here. Or you could go to my topic "Proof of the Christian God" and provide your evidence.

I know I haven't reminded you lately but you are still required by forum rules, to provide evidence supporting your claims.

Or do you not claim that your god exists, and that he is the creator?

Please, surprise me and provide the evidence you've been ducking for so long.
*"On the other hand, we have people who are believers who are so completely sold on the literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible that they are rejecting very compelling scientific data about the age of the earth and the relatedness of living beings." Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D.
*The Atheist has the comfort of no fears for an afterlife and lacks any compulsion to blow himself up.
* Science flies to you the moon.... religion flies you into buildings.
* Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

hoghead1
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Re: What If...?

Post #688

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 683 by theStudent]

I seem to recall that you recommended some JW material. Also, many of your posts seem to go with their whole anti-intellectual agenda.

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Re: What If...?

Post #689

Post by arian »

man wrote: [Replying to post 552 by arian]

If you think thats unholy you better check this out!

College initiation fun, it's funny, and a pretty good one too. This is the same like Alex Jones blowing the door open of the Bohemian Grove sacrifices, .. lol. Nothing like making fun of what really is going on in secret, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpKdSvwYsrE
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root.

Henry D. Thoreau

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Post #690

Post by arian »

Blastcat wrote: [Replying to post 663 by Goat]

[center]
Fallacious Religious Reasoning:
Confirmation Bias[/center]
Goat wrote:
There apparently is one big difference. In the case of evolution, the evidence can be examined, and tested. In the case in the belief in god, not so much.

In the case of the TOE.. you are correct, the evidence CAN be examined by outsiders to the creationist faithful. Apparently, for creationists, the evidence can't be examined so well. Odd that.

Only whatever can cause a problem for evolution ( apparently ) can possibly be looked at by our fine friends the creationists. Funny how that works.

Could creationists be committing the reasoning fallacy known as CONFIRMATION BIAS?

Do most creationists even know what the term MEANS?
When people present evidence after evidence, from the scientific community that proves the TOE a fact of nature, creationists seem to just scoff.

Some creationists seem to be expert scoffers.
Some creationists seem to be expert deniers, too.

Scoffing and denying isn't evidence, however.. not for creationism, not for anything.

In the OP, theStudent asks us to consider "What if they have lied about evolution theory..."

But it seems that the same student cannot seem to consider.. what if they DIDN'T?

:)

:)
The difference between creation and evolution can be easily proven. Let's take ANYTHING in existence, .. something anyone can see and examine without having to build a multi-billion dollar LHC in their basement with a bunch of pagan idols surrounding it.

Let's start with an amoeba, or a single celled bacteria, or a seed of an apple, a toaster, car, plane, a pebble or even a grain of sand, .. whatever, pick one, any thing living or not!?

Then, let us call upon the Priests, Magicians, AKA Evolutionary scientists, and let them show us how "evolution happens"!?

Now if they start off with a list of things they need, and books on how these "things" need to be placed "just right" in a complex environment, .. that's not evolution, or not the evolution they claim "happens". Mother Nature and Father Time does not need anything, it's not that they 'Planned Evolution", right?

So go ahead, let us see "evolution happen"? This should be interesting!
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root.

Henry D. Thoreau

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