The 144,000

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Checkpoint
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The 144,000

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

A question that is often debated, and it seems there are more that the usual two opinions or schools of thought.

The 144,000 are a group that is described in Revelation 7 and 14.

As we know, Revelation is itself a controversial book, largely because of its style and the language it uses.

Language that is sometimes literal and sometimes figurative or metaphorical. It is hard to know which best fits what is being portrayed.

Some see the 144,000 as being a literal number to be taken as literal Israelites.

Others see them as a symbolic number, and as being spiritual Israelites, meaning they are believers both Jew and Gentile.

Yet others have concluded that they are literally 144,000 yet they are not literal but spiritual Israelites.

What is your take, and why do you think that?
Revelation 7:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Revelation 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.
Last edited by Checkpoint on Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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onewithhim
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Re: The 144,00

Post #41

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Checkpoint wrote:
But "spirit begotten born again Christians" number far more than a mere 144,000!
You answered:
That is a matter of opinion.
Some opinions reflect truth; others do not.

It is my opinion that both you and I are "spirit-begotten born again Christians" by faith in Jesus Christ.
Checkpoint wrote:So who do JWs say are these "spiritual Israelites"?
Your answer was:
Sincere Christians throughout the ages that were chosen by God to have that special privilege. Nobody can say for sure, and I certainly cannot name them all, but we know that the first were the 120 Christians in Pentecost.
All believers are "spiritual Israelites". That includes us and so many others, both JWs and those who are not JWs.
Checkpoint wrote:And what of the many other Christians who are born again?
You replied with this answer:
Do you mean the man other Christians that are NOT born again? They will have the hope of living forever in paradise. I count myself as one that holds that hope.


There are no other Christians who are not born again.

If you are not born again you have not and will not enter the kingdom, or the paradise you hope for, or live forever.

Your hope is based on a doctrine and its application that was unknown before 1930.

It was formulated due to a major failed prophecy.
Huh? Jesus didn't explicitly say that non-born-again Christians would not be able to be under the auspices of the Kingdom. He was speaking about those ONLY who would be ruling with him in heaven. In fact, f someone studied carefully, they would see that there are two groups of Christians, though united under one Leader and as one "flock."

At Revelation 7:2-8 John refers to the sealing of 144,000 slaves of God "out of every tribe of the sons of Israel" (known to us now as "spiritual Israel," as per Galatians 3:26-29). AFTER THIS John saw in a vision "a great crowd" out of all nations , tribes, people, and tongues, having come out of the Great Tribulation, serving God "in his temple" (as we do now, in the "courtyard" of God's spiritual temple). So, no matter what people believe these two groups refer to, there ARE two groups.

"Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom [as rulers of that government]." (Luke 12:32)

"And I have other sheep which are not of this fold; those also it is necessary for me to lead, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock with one shepherd." (John 10:16)



So, in my estimation, it is obvious that two groups are involved....one that Jesus will rule in heaven with, and one that will live on Earth forever, to which both Jesus and King David referred:

"The righteous will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it." (Psalm 37:29; see also Matt.5:5)



O:)

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Re: The 144,00

Post #42

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote:
onewithhim wrote:
tam wrote:
onewithhim wrote:
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
So I take it that you do not believe in "Spiritual Israel."

Tell me, who was Peter writing to in his first letter?


:?:
Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
And what of the second question I asked? Who was Peter writing to?

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Post #43

Post by tam »

Wasn't the second question dependent upon a misunderstanding?

Regardless, Peter says who he is writing to:

To God's elect, strangers in the world... chosen according to the foreknowledge of God, the Father, through the sanctifying work of the spirit, for obedience to [Jesus] Christ and sprinkling of his blood.



(also because you did not quote my response - and to keep from potentially misleading anyone - I will point out that I stated from the start that there is a spiritual Israel, and I clarified this in the response you did not quote)

Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #44

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Wasn't the second question dependent upon a misunderstanding?

Regardless, Peter says who he is writing to:

To God's elect, strangers in the world... chosen according to the foreknowledge of God, the Father, through the sanctifying work of the spirit, for obedience to [Jesus] Christ and sprinkling of his blood.



(also because you did not quote my response - and to keep from potentially misleading anyone - I will point out that I stated from the start that there is a spiritual Israel, and I clarified this in the response you did not quote)

Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
I didn't intentionally leave out any of your response, to ultimately mislead anyone. I simply wanted to ask the second question again and yet not take up a lot of space with the other question at hand. I knew that people would have seen your response to the thought of mine that you didn't believe in "spiritual Israel." What led me to have that opinion is something I will have to go back over & then explain.

I agree with you that Peter wrote to God's "elect." I wanted to know specifically who they were....Jews or others.

"To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappodocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen." (I Peter 1:1, NASB) These appear to me to be non-Israelites & former pagans. Gentiles. Would you agree? Just wondering.


:flower:

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Post #45

Post by tam »

onewithhim wrote:
tam wrote: Wasn't the second question dependent upon a misunderstanding?

Regardless, Peter says who he is writing to:

To God's elect, strangers in the world... chosen according to the foreknowledge of God, the Father, through the sanctifying work of the spirit, for obedience to [Jesus] Christ and sprinkling of his blood.



(also because you did not quote my response - and to keep from potentially misleading anyone - I will point out that I stated from the start that there is a spiritual Israel, and I clarified this in the response you did not quote)

Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
I didn't intentionally leave out any of your response, to ultimately mislead anyone. I simply wanted to ask the second question again and yet not take up a lot of space with the other question at hand. I knew that people would have seen your response to the thought of mine that you didn't believe in "spiritual Israel." What led me to have that opinion is something I will have to go back over & then explain.

I agree with you that Peter wrote to God's "elect." I wanted to know specifically who they were....Jews or others.

"To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappodocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen." (I Peter 1:1, NASB) These appear to me to be non-Israelites & former pagans. Gentiles. Would you agree? Just wondering.


:flower:
I would agree that it is likely he was speaking to the elect among the non-Jewish nations, but since he did not specify 'non-Jewish' elect, then his address would also cover any elect from among the Jews (and/or from among the rest of the tribes), who might happen to be in those places.


(I am the one who needed to be sure that no one was potentially misled, even if that were unintentional. But thank you for your explanation.)


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #46

Post by onewithhim »

I agree with your assessment of who Peter was writing to.


O:)

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Re: The 144,00

Post #47

Post by Checkpoint »

onewithhim wrote:
Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 31 by onewithhim]
In a very recent post (#14) you indicated that you were totally in the dark as to what JWs believed about the 144,000.....when we had discussed this very thing on another thread (see this thread that YOU started, "The Israel of God, Who is It?") . Had you completely forgotten that discussion? Do you wonder that I thought that maybe someone else had entered the discussion in your place?
It was not a matter of whether or not I had forgotten a discussion on another thread, but that we were in a different thread.

Each thread has its own purpose and emphasis, and may have some different readers.

I ask questions to elicit answers, and then decide whether or not to respond. Don't you do that too?
Why not just keep your post "The Israel of God" going, instead of starting up a completely new thread on the exact same topic?
Because it is not the "exact same topic" at all.

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Re: The 144,00

Post #48

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote:
onewithhim wrote:
Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 31 by onewithhim]
In a very recent post (#14) you indicated that you were totally in the dark as to what JWs believed about the 144,000.....when we had discussed this very thing on another thread (see this thread that YOU started, "The Israel of God, Who is It?") . Had you completely forgotten that discussion? Do you wonder that I thought that maybe someone else had entered the discussion in your place?
It was not a matter of whether or not I had forgotten a discussion on another thread, but that we were in a different thread.

Each thread has its own purpose and emphasis, and may have some different readers.

I ask questions to elicit answers, and then decide whether or not to respond. Don't you do that too?
Why not just keep your post "The Israel of God" going, instead of starting up a completely new thread on the exact same topic?
Because it is not the "exact same topic" at all.
It's interesting that you would say that after all of the discussion on that thread ("The Israel of God, Who Are They?"). Please explain how those two topics are different.

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Re: The 144,00

Post #49

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 48 by onewithhim]
It's interesting that you would say that after all of the discussion on that thread ("The Israel of God, Who Are They?"). Please explain how those two topics are different.
The Israel of God looks at the literal/spiritual concept and seeks for a decision one way or the other.

The 144,000 looks at a specific number of specific Israelites and seeks for a decision on just who they are.

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Re: The 144,00

Post #50

Post by Checkpoint »

onewithhim wrote:
Checkpoint wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Checkpoint wrote:
But "spirit begotten born again Christians" number far more than a mere 144,000!
You answered:
That is a matter of opinion.
Some opinions reflect truth; others do not.

It is my opinion that both you and I are "spirit-begotten born again Christians" by faith in Jesus Christ.
Checkpoint wrote:So who do JWs say are these "spiritual Israelites"?
Your answer was:
Sincere Christians throughout the ages that were chosen by God to have that special privilege. Nobody can say for sure, and I certainly cannot name them all, but we know that the first were the 120 Christians in Pentecost.
All believers are "spiritual Israelites". That includes us and so many others, both JWs and those who are not JWs.
Checkpoint wrote:And what of the many other Christians who are born again?
You replied with this answer:
Do you mean the man other Christians that are NOT born again? They will have the hope of living forever in paradise. I count myself as one that holds that hope.


My answer was:
There are no other Christians who are not born again.

If you are not born again you have not and will not enter the kingdom, or the paradise you hope for, or live forever.

Your hope is based on a doctrine and its application that was unknown before 1930.

It was formulated due to a major failed prophecy.
Huh? Jesus didn't explicitly say that non-born-again Christians would not be able to be under the auspices of the Kingdom. He was speaking about those ONLY who would be ruling with him in heaven. In fact, f someone studied carefully, they would see that there are two groups of Christians, though united under one Leader and as one "flock."

At Revelation 7:2-8 John refers to the sealing of 144,000 slaves of God "out of every tribe of the sons of Israel" (known to us now as "spiritual Israel," as per Galatians 3:26-29). AFTER THIS John saw in a vision "a great crowd" out of all nations , tribes, people, and tongues, having come out of the Great Tribulation, serving God "in his temple" (as we do now, in the "courtyard" of God's spiritual temple). So, no matter what people believe these two groups refer to, there ARE two groups.

"Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom [as rulers of that government]." (Luke 12:32)

"And I have other sheep which are not of this fold; those also it is necessary for me to lead, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock with one shepherd." (John 10:16)



So, in my estimation, it is obvious that two groups are involved....one that Jesus will rule in heaven with, and one that will live on Earth forever, to which both Jesus and King David referred:

"The righteous will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it." (Psalm 37:29; see also Matt.5:5)
There are no "non-born-again Christians".

The term "born again" does not describe a kind of Christian, but states what is in the spiritual realm.

You and I are either born of the flesh only, or we are born of the spirit as well, as believers.

Being so reborn we are a new creation, we are now children of God and heirs of the promises.
John 1:

12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Romans 8:

14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.

15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as His children, by which we cry, “Abba! Father!�

16 The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
There are not "two groups of Christians".
John 10:16:

And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

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