The 144,000

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Checkpoint
Prodigy
Posts: 4069
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:07 pm
Has thanked: 105 times
Been thanked: 64 times

The 144,000

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

A question that is often debated, and it seems there are more that the usual two opinions or schools of thought.

The 144,000 are a group that is described in Revelation 7 and 14.

As we know, Revelation is itself a controversial book, largely because of its style and the language it uses.

Language that is sometimes literal and sometimes figurative or metaphorical. It is hard to know which best fits what is being portrayed.

Some see the 144,000 as being a literal number to be taken as literal Israelites.

Others see them as a symbolic number, and as being spiritual Israelites, meaning they are believers both Jew and Gentile.

Yet others have concluded that they are literally 144,000 yet they are not literal but spiritual Israelites.

What is your take, and why do you think that?
Revelation 7:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Revelation 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.
Last edited by Checkpoint on Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 11091
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1574 times
Been thanked: 465 times

Re: The 144,00

Post #51

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote:
onewithhim wrote:
Checkpoint wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Checkpoint wrote:
But "spirit begotten born again Christians" number far more than a mere 144,000!
You answered:
That is a matter of opinion.
Some opinions reflect truth; others do not.

It is my opinion that both you and I are "spirit-begotten born again Christians" by faith in Jesus Christ.
Checkpoint wrote:So who do JWs say are these "spiritual Israelites"?
Your answer was:
Sincere Christians throughout the ages that were chosen by God to have that special privilege. Nobody can say for sure, and I certainly cannot name them all, but we know that the first were the 120 Christians in Pentecost.
All believers are "spiritual Israelites". That includes us and so many others, both JWs and those who are not JWs.
Checkpoint wrote:And what of the many other Christians who are born again?
You replied with this answer:
Do you mean the man other Christians that are NOT born again? They will have the hope of living forever in paradise. I count myself as one that holds that hope.


My answer was:
There are no other Christians who are not born again.

If you are not born again you have not and will not enter the kingdom, or the paradise you hope for, or live forever.

Your hope is based on a doctrine and its application that was unknown before 1930.

It was formulated due to a major failed prophecy.
Huh? Jesus didn't explicitly say that non-born-again Christians would not be able to be under the auspices of the Kingdom. He was speaking about those ONLY who would be ruling with him in heaven. In fact, f someone studied carefully, they would see that there are two groups of Christians, though united under one Leader and as one "flock."

At Revelation 7:2-8 John refers to the sealing of 144,000 slaves of God "out of every tribe of the sons of Israel" (known to us now as "spiritual Israel," as per Galatians 3:26-29). AFTER THIS John saw in a vision "a great crowd" out of all nations , tribes, people, and tongues, having come out of the Great Tribulation, serving God "in his temple" (as we do now, in the "courtyard" of God's spiritual temple). So, no matter what people believe these two groups refer to, there ARE two groups.

"Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom [as rulers of that government]." (Luke 12:32)

"And I have other sheep which are not of this fold; those also it is necessary for me to lead, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock with one shepherd." (John 10:16)



So, in my estimation, it is obvious that two groups are involved....one that Jesus will rule in heaven with, and one that will live on Earth forever, to which both Jesus and King David referred:

"The righteous will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it." (Psalm 37:29; see also Matt.5:5)
There are no "non-born-again Christians".

The term "born again" does not describe a kind of Christian, but states what is in the spiritual realm.

You and I are either born of the flesh only, or we are born of the spirit as well, as believers.

Being so reborn we are a new creation, we are now children of God and heirs of the promises.
John 1:

12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Romans 8:

14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.

15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as His children, by which we cry, “Abba! Father!�

16 The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
There are not "two groups of Christians".
John 10:16:

And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
You state your opinion only, and you do not take my statements and comment on them. For instance, I brought out Revelation 7: 4 & 9. You seemed to skip right over that. "And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand." (Revelation 7:4) Then in verse 9: "After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations."

Obviously two groups.


O:)

Checkpoint
Prodigy
Posts: 4069
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:07 pm
Has thanked: 105 times
Been thanked: 64 times

Re: The 144,00

Post #52

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 51 by onewithhim]
You state your opinion only, and you do not take my statements and comment on them. For instance, I brought out Revelation 7: 4 & 9. You seemed to skip right over that. "And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand." (Revelation 7:4) Then in verse 9: "After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations."

Obviously two groups.
I do not state my opinion only, but have backed it up with scripture.

Verses that you do not comment on.

No, it is one vision with two parts.

He hears the number and description, and then sees what has been literally annotated as it actually is spiritually.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 11091
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1574 times
Been thanked: 465 times

Re: The 144,00

Post #53

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 51 by onewithhim]
You state your opinion only, and you do not take my statements and comment on them. For instance, I brought out Revelation 7: 4 & 9. You seemed to skip right over that. "And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand." (Revelation 7:4) Then in verse 9: "After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations."

Obviously two groups.
I do not state my opinion only, but have backed it up with scripture.

Verses that you do not comment on.

No, it is one vision with two parts.

He hears the number and description, and then sees what has been literally annotated as it actually is spiritually.
I have indeed commented on what you have said. You now exasperatingly contradict what chapter 7 of Revelation has revealed. How can verses 4 and 9 be speaking of the same group? Explain that in clear terms please.


:-|

polonius
Prodigy
Posts: 3904
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:03 pm
Location: Oregon
Been thanked: 1 time

Isn't the Book of Revelation fictional?

Post #54

Post by polonius »

St. Paul advises that we test everything, hold fast to that which is true, and put aside childish things.

Doesn't this apply to the Book of Revelation?

Isn't the belief that all scripture is inspired by God no longer taken seriously because of all the contradictions and errors found it what is said to be "God breathed"?

Of course, Paul never said that it was "God breathed". Someone else came up with that claim. And some others believed it! ;)

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22886
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 899 times
Been thanked: 1338 times
Contact:

Re: Isn't the Book of Revelation fictional?

Post #55

Post by JehovahsWitness »

polonius.advice wrote: St. Paul advises that we test everything, hold fast to that which is true, and put aside childish things.

Doesn't this apply to the Book of Revelation?

Isn't the belief that all scripture is inspired by God no longer taken seriously because of all the contradictions and errors found it what is said to be "God breathed"?

Of course, Paul never said that it was "God breathed". Someone else came up with that claim. And some others believed it! ;)
Why should the book of revelation, which is part of the bible canon be considered a "childish thing" to be "put aside"?

If you have such a high regard for the Apostles Paul's advice, are you aware that he himself penned the throught that "all scripture is inspired of God" (in the original languaged "god breathed")?

There are no contradictions in the bible.


JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Elijah John
Savant
Posts: 12236
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
Location: New England
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: Isn't the Book of Revelation fictional?

Post #56

Post by Elijah John »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
polonius.advice wrote: St. Paul advises that we test everything, hold fast to that which is true, and put aside childish things.

Doesn't this apply to the Book of Revelation?

Isn't the belief that all scripture is inspired by God no longer taken seriously because of all the contradictions and errors found it what is said to be "God breathed"?

Of course, Paul never said that it was "God breathed". Someone else came up with that claim. And some others believed it! ;)
Why should the book of revelation, which is part of the bible canon be considered a "childish thing" to be "put aside"?

If you have such a high regard for the Apostles Paul's advice, are you aware that he himself penned the throught that "all scripture is inspired of God" (in the original languaged "god breathed")?

There are no contradictions in the bible.


JW
Do you think Paul knew the book of Revelation would be included in the Bible as we have it today?

Remember who compiled the Bible in the first place, to include the book of Revelation. It was the RCC.

So what exactly was Paul referring to when he said "all scripture"?

I bet it was only the Hebrew Canon, the Old Testament, and not even his own letters.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22886
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 899 times
Been thanked: 1338 times
Contact:

Re: Isn't the Book of Revelation fictional?

Post #57

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 56 by Elijah John]

I don't know, but I do think God did. He (Jehovah himself) instructed John, through Jesus, to write the vision down and in doing so it became "scripture" which would fall under the catagory that Paul mentioned. Whether Paul was divinely informed that this would happen we simply don't know, but that doesn't matter, what does as I said is that God directed the creation of "scripture" for the purpose of divine instruction. Paul refered to "scripture" meaning holy writings, he didn't impose any arbitary limites. To illustrate, if I say "all women are beautiful" it doesn't just refer to the women I know or those born before my making that statement. Paul said all scripture is benefitial that applies to scripture past present and future.


NOTE: The bible was "compiled" long before the Catholic church ever existed. Please see my earlier post on this topic.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 11091
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1574 times
Been thanked: 465 times

Re: Isn't the Book of Revelation fictional?

Post #58

Post by onewithhim »

polonius.advice wrote: St. Paul advises that we test everything, hold fast to that which is true, and put aside childish things.

Doesn't this apply to the Book of Revelation?

Isn't the belief that all scripture is inspired by God no longer taken seriously because of all the contradictions and errors found it what is said to be "God breathed"?

Of course, Paul never said that it was "God breathed". Someone else came up with that claim. And some others believed it! ;)
The book of Revelation is to be "put aside"? Hey, it's anything but "childish." It is deep, intense, and loaded with information about these last days.

"Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it." (Revelation 1:3)

User avatar
catnip
Guru
Posts: 1007
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:40 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Isn't the Book of Revelation fictional?

Post #59

Post by catnip »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 56 by Elijah John]

I don't know, but I do think God did. He (Jehovah himself) instructed John, through Jesus, to write the vision down and in doing so it became "scripture" which would fall under the catagory that Paul mentioned. Whether Paul was divinely informed that this would happen we simply don't know, but that doesn't matter, what does as I said is that God directed the creation of "scripture" for the purpose of divine instruction. Paul refered to "scripture" meaning holy writings, he didn't impose any arbitary limites. To illustrate, if I say "all women are beautiful" it doesn't just refer to the women I know or those born before my making that statement. Paul said all scripture is benefitial that applies to scripture past present and future.


NOTE: The bible was "compiled" long before the Catholic church ever existed. Please see my earlier post on this topic.
Revelation was not included in the Canon of the Eastern (Orthodox) churches including the ones in and near the Holy Land and is not included in their Canon now.

The Canon developed and was not fully developed and firmed up until the 6th Century according to the Yale study course on the New Testament. So, no, the Canon was not "firmed up long before the Catholic Church ever existed."

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22886
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 899 times
Been thanked: 1338 times
Contact:

Re: Isn't the Book of Revelation fictional?

Post #60

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 59 by catnip]

I didn't use the word "firmed up" that is your own vague and somewhat non descript expression supposedly referring to a particular stage in the development of the bible canon. I will not be debating the validity of the bible canon in this subforum, and provided as link with relevant references as to my position for anyone to click on. If I had any intention of discussing this further I would do so in the relevant subforum

For now suffice it to say, in this subforum the 66 canonical books of the Bible are considered an authoritative source and the bible canon includes the book of Revelation.

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Post Reply