The 144,000

[Checkpoint]

A question that is often debated, and it seems there are more that the usual two opinions or schools of thought.

The 144,000 are a group that is described in Revelation 7 and 14.

As we know, Revelation is itself a controversial book, largely because of its style and the language it uses.

Language that is sometimes literal and sometimes figurative or metaphorical. It is hard to know which best fits what is being portrayed.

Some see the 144,000 as being a literal number to be taken as literal Israelites.

Others see them as a symbolic number, and as being spiritual Israelites, meaning they are believers both Jew and Gentile.

Yet others have concluded that they are literally 144,000 yet they are not literal but spiritual Israelites.

What is your take, and why do you think that?

Revelation 7:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Revelation 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 51 by onewithhim]

You state your opinion only, and you do not take my statements and comment on them. For instance, I brought out Revelation 7: 4 & 9. You seemed to skip right over that. "And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand." (Revelation 7:4) Then in verse 9: "After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations."

Obviously two groups.

I do not state my opinion only, but have backed it up with scripture.

Verses that you do not comment on.

No, it is one vision with two parts.

He hears the number and description, and then sees what has been literally annotated as it actually is spiritually.

I have indeed commented on what you have said. You now exasperatingly contradict what chapter 7 of Revelation has revealed. How can verses 4 and 9 be speaking of the same group? Explain that in clear terms please.

This I explained briefly in my post #36.

What chapter 7 reveals is not something I contradict, but what have sought to grasp and to share.

Much of Revelation is a series of visions, which involve what John saw and what he heard.

I now read and understand chapter 7 as being one vision unfolding in three parts.

These are:

1) Verses 1-4; things John saw and heard.

2) Verses 5-8; things he heard but did not see.

3) Verses 9-17; things he saw and heard.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 56 by Elijah John]

I don't know, but I do think God did. He (Jehovah himself) instructed John, through Jesus, to write the vision down and in doing so it became "scripture" which would fall under the catagory that Paul mentioned. Whether Paul was divinely informed that this would happen we simply don't know, but that doesn't matter, what does as I said is that God directed the creation of "scripture" for the purpose of divine instruction. Paul refered to "scripture" meaning holy writings, he didn't impose any arbitary limites. To illustrate, if I say "all women are beautiful" it doesn't just refer to the women I know or those born before my making that statement. Paul said all scripture is benefitial that applies to scripture past present and future.


NOTE: The bible was "compiled" long before the Catholic church ever existed. Please see my earlier post on this topic.

Revelation was not included in the Canon of the Eastern (Orthodox) churches including the ones in and near the Holy Land and is not included in their Canon now.

The Canon developed and was not fully developed and firmed up until the 6th Century according to the Yale study course on the New Testament. So, no, the Canon was not "firmed up long before the Catholic Church ever existed."

Unfortunately then, the Orthodox churches have been totally missing out on what has been going on in these last days. Revelation is all about what to expect in the days from the time the "Times of the Gentiles" ended, in the early 20th century, right up through the Great Tribulation and on into the "new earth." What a bad choice to make, in not allowing Revelation into their canon.

[polonius]

Unfortunately then, the Orthodox churches have been totally missing out on what has been going on in these last days. Revelation is all about what to expect in the days from the time the "Times of the Gentiles" ended, in the early 20th century, right up through the Great Tribulation and on into the "new earth." What a bad choice to make, in not allowing Revelation into their canon.

RESPONSE: Or a prudent choice for refusing to allow such a fantastic yarn to be appended to scripture!

[onewithhim]

Unfortunately then, the Orthodox churches have been totally missing out on what has been going on in these last days. Revelation is all about what to expect in the days from the time the "Times of the Gentiles" ended, in the early 20th century, right up through the Great Tribulation and on into the "new earth." What a bad choice to make, in not allowing Revelation into their canon.

RESPONSE: Or a prudent choice for refusing to allow such a fantastic yarn to be appended to scripture!

How do YOU think YOU would describe things that you just saw in a vision about things going on in heaven?

Also, the things John saw in the vision concerning the Earth weren't meant to be understood by anyone, really, until the last days. If you want to, look at the Scriptures written by Daniel and Matthew, indicating that knowledge would be abundant "in the last days." (Daniel 12:4,9; Matthew 13:37-40)


God's people are NOW understanding what Revelation has meant up to now, and what will happen in the immediate future. It's a good thing to know. We know what to expect. If you have any interest in what the near future holds, check out www.jw.org . It's a website that answers any questions about God and the Bible.

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 63 by onewithhim]

Actually, that a very good point you made.
The book of Daniel is a key to understand Revelation, and some things in Daniel are completed with Revelation.
The two really form a union, as is the case with the rest of the scriptures.
To remove either is to be lost to the fulfillment of prophecy, and God's purpose being completed.
It's no wonder the Devil tried to remove the book of Daniel as well.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 51 by onewithhim]

You state your opinion only, and you do not take my statements and comment on them. For instance, I brought out Revelation 7: 4 & 9. You seemed to skip right over that. "And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand." (Revelation 7:4) Then in verse 9: "After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations."

Obviously two groups.

I do not state my opinion only, but have backed it up with scripture.

Verses that you do not comment on.

No, it is one vision with two parts.

He hears the number and description, and then sees what has been literally annotated as it actually is spiritually.

I have indeed commented on what you have said. You now exasperatingly contradict what chapter 7 of Revelation has revealed. How can verses 4 and 9 be speaking of the same group? Explain that in clear terms please.

No, I do not contradict what Revelation 7 relates, even though it may seem that way to you.

The position you hold is the JW one, which you naturally gravitated to, whereas my position comes from no other human source but is my own.

This is what I have found, quite recently.

What chapter 7 reveals is the answer to the question in the very last verse of chapter 6,

"for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Who indeed.

Those who "have the seal of the living God", "on their foreheads", verses 2-3, who are therefore "standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands", verse 9.

The Israel of God. All believers.

Further, I consider chapter 7 to be one vision that has three phases.

1) Verses 1-4; what John saw and was told;

2) Verses 5-8; what he heard but did not yet see;

3) Verses 9-17; what he then saw and was asked about and told.

To me it is obvious that in 2), verses 5-8, we have a parenthesis to give extra information before continuing.

That, then, is my take and my explanation.

I know you are hardly likely to accept it, but it may be of interest anyway.

[theStudent]

Hi Checkpoint.
I was trying to reconcile a few verses in Revelation with you viewpoint.
Could you help me to see how you understand them, and how they harmonize, please?

Revelation 7:4 says John heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel
Whom do you understand these tribes of the sons of Israel to be?

Revelation 7:9 continues... After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.
Whom do you understand these nations and tribes and peoples and tongues to be?

Revelation 7:15-17 says ...they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.�
In what way are they before the throne of God, rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple, and how is it that the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.�

When I compare these to Revelation 14:1 and 3, John says, Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. and verse 4 says These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb...
The 144,000 are brought from among mankind, and are now with the lamb on Mount Zion.
In your view is this mankind the tribes of the sons of Israel, and is Mount Zion heaven?

In Revelation 21:2-5, the holy city, New Jerusalem, is seen coming down out of heaven from God, likened to the tent of God being with mankind.
Is New Jerusalem the 144,000, and is mankind the tribes of the sons of Israel?

I hope you don't mind me asking these questions.
I'm just trying to get a full picture of how you are seeing these things.

[Checkpoint]

Hi Checkpoint.
I was trying to reconcile a few verses in Revelation with you viewpoint.
Could you help me to see how you understand them, and how they harmonize, please?

Revelation 7:4 says John heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel
Whom do you understand these tribes of the sons of Israel to be?

Revelation 7:9 continues... After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.
Whom do you understand these nations and tribes and peoples and tongues to be?

Revelation 7:15-17 says ...they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.�
In what way are they before the throne of God, rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple, and how is it that the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.�

When I compare these to Revelation 14:1 and 3, John says, Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. and verse 4 says These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb...
The 144,000 are brought from among mankind, and are now with the lamb on Mount Zion.
In your view is this mankind the tribes of the sons of Israel, and is Mount Zion heaven?

In Revelation 21:2-5, the holy city, New Jerusalem, is seen coming down out of heaven from God, likened to the tent of God being with mankind.
Is New Jerusalem the 144,000, and is mankind the tribes of the sons of Israel?

I hope you don't mind me asking these questions.
I'm just trying to get a full picture of how you are seeing these things.

Good post with interesting questions.

Whether any answers I might give agree with your own answers or do not, does not alter the validity or otherwise of what I wrote in post 65.

The "sons of Israel" I take as being the same as Paul's "This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring", Romans 9:8.

These are not "mankind", but "bought from among mankind".

That is, all believers, all those who inherit the promises. The bride, the New Jerusalem.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 51 by onewithhim]

You state your opinion only, and you do not take my statements and comment on them. For instance, I brought out Revelation 7: 4 & 9. You seemed to skip right over that. "And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand." (Revelation 7:4) Then in verse 9: "After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations."

Obviously two groups.

I do not state my opinion only, but have backed it up with scripture.

Verses that you do not comment on.

No, it is one vision with two parts.

He hears the number and description, and then sees what has been literally annotated as it actually is spiritually.

I have indeed commented on what you have said. You now exasperatingly contradict what chapter 7 of Revelation has revealed. How can verses 4 and 9 be speaking of the same group? Explain that in clear terms please.

No, I do not contradict what Revelation 7 relates, even though it may seem that way to you.

The position you hold is the JW one, which you naturally gravitated to, whereas my position comes from no other human source but is my own.

This is what I have found, quite recently.

What chapter 7 reveals is the answer to the question in the very last verse of chapter 6,

"for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Who indeed.

Those who "have the seal of the living God", "on their foreheads", verses 2-3, who are therefore "standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands", verse 9.

The Israel of God. All believers.

Further, I consider chapter 7 to be one vision that has three phases.

1) Verses 1-4; what John saw and was told;

2) Verses 5-8; what he heard but did not yet see;

3) Verses 9-17; what he then saw and was asked about and told.

To me it is obvious that in 2), verses 5-8, we have a parenthesis to give extra information before continuing.

That, then, is my take and my explanation.

I know you are hardly likely to accept it, but it may be of interest anyway.

No I do not accept it, and I, too, have come to my conclusions by my own reasoning after studying the verses. I don't automatically gravitate to the JW position. I examine it and research and study it.

It's crystal clear that there are two different groups spoken of, as I see that TheStudent brought out in his post, and that I also have pointed out. The 144,000 are of "the sons of Israel," and the great crowd is of people "out of all nations." So, right there in those few verses there is a distinction between them.

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 68 by onewithhim]

No I do not accept it, and I, too, have come to my conclusions by my own reasoning after studying the verses. I don't automatically gravitate to the JW position. I examine it and research and study it.

It's crystal clear that there are two different groups spoken of, as I see that TheStudent brought out in his post, and that I also have pointed out. The 144,000 are of "the sons of Israel," and the great crowd is of people "out of all nations." So, right there in those few verses there is a distinction between them.

The thing is, gravitating toward the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses does not mean that you are wrong, because the important thing is, is it in harmony with the scriptures? Is it what the Bible really teaches.

It is one thing to say that we believe something, but is the Bible in agreement with what we believe.
It is indeed crystal clear that there are two different groups spoken of, as you pointed out. To say otherwise, one must be able to show that the Bible harmonies with that conclusion, which I have given Checkpoint the opportunity to show, but I have been met with the usual.
That's the last time I ask Checkpoint for any clarification or explanation.