Smokers need not apply...

[Elijah John]

(Luke 5.31)

And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are in health have no need of a physician; but they that are sick.

One of our Jehovah's Witnesses said that smokers cannot be baptized and become members of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Even, apparently, smokers who want to quit. They have to have already kicked the habit.

Seems this criteria could be extended to ALL who are struggling with their bad habits.

For debate:

In light of Luke 5.31, how Christian is this exclusionary attitude and requirement?

Should Christian groups welcome of exclude those who are still struggling with their bad habits?

[catnip]

(Luke 5.31)

And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are in health have no need of a physician; but they that are sick.

One of our Jehovah's Witnesses said that smokers cannot be baptized and become members of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Even, apparently, smokers who want to quit. They have to have already kicked the habit.

Seems this criteria could be extended to ALL who are struggling with their bad habits.

For debate:

In light of Luke 5.31, how Christian is this exclusionary attitude and requirement?

Should Christian groups welcome of exclude those who are still struggling with their bad habits?

As Jesus says, he came to save sinners--the righteous don't need him. I then wonder who it is that is righteous. Who is it that doesn't need healing. If we could save ourselves, why do we need Christ? We welcome sinners because we are all in the process of being healed.

If we were capable on our own of overcoming sin, then we wouldn't need him. So we ask for forgiveness AND we forgive others.

This is where Paul becomes instrumental, because he explains that we can only overcome sin through faith. This is the reason he goes into detail about why the Law, a good and perfect thing, brought death. Before there was Law, we couldn't sin. It was awareness of the Law that brought death. And that is the theology of the faith.

And James: For if a man keep the Law apart from one single point, he is guilty of breaking all of it.

I am a smoker. I began when I was fourteen. Even though I do not smoke now, I will always be a smoker. If I picked up a cigarette and let myself smoke it, my habit could be back in full in a heartbeat. I do not see it as a sin, but as a sickness. An addiction is not a sin.

Otherwise, I have lived a healthy life. And in some ways, I see that addiction as a blessing because I saw how easily I became a smoker so afterward I was careful about all addictive substances. It may have saved me from far worse habits.

In short, if anyone is a sinner his ONLY hope is through faith and that comes through the practice of faith. It is not immediate. Perhaps the point is that being self-righteous is sin itself.

IF it is a sin, then it is through faith that any of us will be healed. It is our only hope and that is the whole point of our faith. We take sinners into the fold and expect that through faith we will all be healed. Churches are hospitals for recovering sinners. If only the perfect could enter, then the church doors would be barred and the church empty.

[theStudent]

(Luke 5.31)

And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are in health have no need of a physician; but they that are sick.

One of our Jehovah's Witnesses said that smokers cannot be baptized and become members of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Even, apparently, smokers who want to quit. They have to have already kicked the habit.

Seems this criteria could be extended to ALL who are struggling with their bad habits.

For debate:

In light of Luke 5.31, how Christian is this exclusionary attitude and requirement?

Should Christian groups welcome of exclude those who are still struggling with their bad habits?

Well there is another reason I could never be a JW. I don't smoke but I do have a smokeless tobacco habit. I dip so therefore I do have a nicotine addiction.

I guess addiction isn't allowed. I wonder if they exclude coffee drinkers because of caffeine addiction.

Requiring perfection by religious standards is yet another trait of the Pharisees. I wonder if JW have any prison ministries? That is one thing that Yeshua specifically references is visiting those in prison but those in prison wouldn't be 'religiously perfect'.

I guess what you are in effect saying then is that Jesus was wrong for requiring people to repent of their sins and be baptized ; that Peter was wrong in requiring people to repent and be baptized ; that there was no need to preach to persons, because wheter they practiced sin or not, they could belong to the way.

So really, does it matter what the Bible says, or is our opinion the driving force of Christianity?
It's not surprising then that so many people do not even know what the Bible contains, yet they are Christian.

Jesus and his apostles were not self-righteous, yet the hypocrites tried to kill them - and succeeded.
When they stoned Stephen, it was because he was telling them what the scriptures say.
What was their response before making sure he didn't walk away from that spot?
(Acts 7:54, 57, 58) . . .Well, at hearing these things, they were infuriated in their hearts and began to grind their teeth at him.
 . .they cried out at the top of their voices and put their hands over their ears and rushed at him all together. After throwing him outside the city, they began stoning him.. . .

"We don't want to hear the truth" - basically.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to theStudent]

I think you are overlooking a number of key issues here. One important one is: What does the Bible mean by "defile flesh" (2 Cor. 2:)? If you were into the temperance movement, it meant no alcohol. But that proved most arbitrary, as the Bible praises alcohol. The first miracle Jesus did was to turn water into wine, and Paul tells Timothy that if his stomach bothers him, take some wine. The Bible says nothing at all about smoking, using caffeine , or using any other drugs, for that matter. The "Puritans" had absolutely no trouble with consuming alcohol or tobacco. If you look to OT dietary laws, we hold with none of them. Actually, Peter's vision of the tablecloth descending from heaven means all that we can ingest are clean and acceptable for consumption. So you just can't point the finger and say something is defiling teh flesh. You have to show why your standards and understanding that such-and-such is a defilement is correct and why others are wrong. And that's no easy task here, especially as the Bible says nothing at all about smoking or caffeine usage, or any other drugs. If you are going to argue that smoking is a defilement because it can have negative side effects, still that really doesn't work. Note that alcohol also has negative side effects, but is still praised by Scripture.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to theStudent]

I add that the rationale you provide here is the exact, same one that has been exploited by religious organizations to promote all sorts of health and health-food scams. Case in point: breakfast cereal. How did we ever get ourselves and our children so addicted to eating all that sugary junk food for breakfast? Interesting story. Along came a physician named Dr. Kellogg. By our standards today, he'd be a real quack. He was a fanatical vegetarian, believed in frequent, daily big enemas, carefully examining the texture and smell of your stool samples to determine your health, complete abstinence from sex, and that his health spa could cure absolutely any illness, via diet. He was also a fanatical follower of the self-proclaimed "prophet" Ellen White and her Seventh Day Adventist Church. The church pumped its money into promoting his spa and he used his money to invest in the cereal business. Rough go at first. Unless properly prepared, cereal is absolutely foul junk. You could hardly swallow it. He delivered away to cook it and coat it with loads to sugar, to make it palatable. With clever advertising, he moved American off the traditional meat-and potatoes breakfast over into eating junk food.
So pardon me, but anytime I see religious groups trying to push certain health standards, I get a bit suspicious.

[JehovahsWitness]

Why would God allow into his clean congregation something that defiles the body like smoking does?

Isn't that a bit like asking "why would anyone allow sick people into a hospital"?

I believe I addressed this issue in my post above. People rarely go to hospital to stay sick.

[onewithhim]

(Luke 5.31)

And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are in health have no need of a physician; but they that are sick.

One of our Jehovah's Witnesses said that smokers cannot be baptized and become members of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Even, apparently, smokers who want to quit. They have to have already kicked the habit.

Seems this criteria could be extended to ALL who are struggling with their bad habits.

For debate:

In light of Luke 5.31, how Christian is this exclusionary attitude and requirement?

Should Christian groups welcome of exclude those who are still struggling with their bad habits?

Well there is another reason I could never be a JW. I don't smoke but I do have a smokeless tobacco habit. I dip so therefore I do have a nicotine addiction.

I guess addiction isn't allowed. I wonder if they exclude coffee drinkers because of caffeine addiction.

Requiring perfection by religious standards is yet another trait of the Pharisees. I wonder if JW have any prison ministries? That is one thing that Yeshua specifically references is visiting those in prison but those in prison wouldn't be 'religiously perfect'.

You are so unreasonable on this that it scarcely merits a response. Christians reject the practice of habits that are undeniably harmful to one's body. Why would you suppose that God is OK with His worshipers slowly killing themselves with nasty habits? Have you never heard of tongue or lip cancer because of dipping? Coffee "addiction" might be a problem for many, but there is no conclusive proof that drinking coffee is actually harmful. There are conflicting studies, with many saying that coffee is good for you.

JWs do not require "perfection." That is a long way off; it will take the better part of a thousand years to get mankind back to absolute perfection. We are only required to do the best we can under our present circumstances, and that is what it means to be "perfect" at this point in time.

JWs do indeed have prison ministries.

[onewithhim]

Why would God allow into his clean congregation something that defiles the body like smoking does?

Isn't that a bit like asking "why would anyone allow sick people into a hospital"?

No. Don't people go to a hospital to be CURED OF THEIR ILLNESS? Does it make any sense to go to a hospital but not follow the doctors' orders?

If people seek to join up with people who are clean, and they want to be baptized, wouldn't they follow the "physicians' " orders and stop indulging in the habits that are making them sick?

Your question seems to indicate that you would go to a hospital because you are sick but would not do anything or change anything to make yourself better.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 17 by onewithhim]

The problem here is that there are no "doctors orders" in Scripture on the subject of smoking, caffeine, or other drugs. Modern medicine is not an exact science, and has provided an overwhelming array of highly conflicting claims and arbitrary dictates on just about every kind of drug, coupled with considerable media hype and politics. Pot, for example, was presented by doctors, at least when I grew up, as a drug that would drive you sex crazed. Today, the medical authorities speak of the beneficial medical effects of pot. If pot were lower in price, I'd probably get a medical-marijuana card. Now if I did, and if I switched from tobacco to pot, and if I wanted to join the Watchtower Society, would that be OK with the JW's? After all, I am taking a prescribed medication. LSD was initially considered therapeutic, then banned, but only in the US, not with European psychotherapists. Many medically prescribed drugs are well-known to have terrible side effects. Have any idea how many persons are addicted to prescription medication? I was recently on a medication that caused me to get what appeared to be big bruises and the smallest cut to bleed like a river. I asked the doctor about his and she told me that's because I was on a blood thinner that is used in rat poison. No way, I said. I refused to take any more of it. At our local heart clinic, there is a display case on what not to eat. In it, there is a big PJ Clark's cheeseburger, fried, and a chocolate shake. Supposedly food like is a big no-no for your heart. Well then, should you JW's refuse all cheeseburgers, shakes, and fries? And what about alcohol? it is probably the most abused drug. Certainly it's not forbidden by Scripture. As I said in a previous post, one of the first miracles of Christ was turning water into wine. Now certainly you are not suggesting that Christ go it it wrong, that he should have turned the wine into water, because medicine says alcohol has deleterious effects and can be addictive.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 15 by JehovahsWitness]

Sorry, but your comment on hospitals isn't near accurate. Many hospitals care to the chronically ill. That is also true of hospices. I spend three years as a clinical-psychology trainee in a VA hospital for chronic schizophrenics. All we could no was make them comfortable, more manageable, and mute some of the symptoms. Cure them? No way.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

P.S. You really got me going here. Sorry but I had to add this: I just spent six years as a substance-abuse counselor in a 45-day residential facility. We never, and I mean never, speak of "curing" anyone. We discourage persons from saying things like "I'm an ex-alcoholic" or "former heroine user," or "I'm all cured now." Instead, everyone is to think of themselves as in "recovery," not cured. You will always have the disease, the illness. There is a very high recidivism rate, about 19 out of 20. What we hope to do is to extend the time between relapses. When clients finish the program, they are warned not to take it for granted, assume it's all over and done with. We warn them all relapse is a very real possibility. If and when they do, they are encouraged not to look down on themselves, but to expect that this kind of thing can happen, and then, when it does, come right back in. I know of plenty of persons who have been through rehab 15 times and will keep coming back. It's a lifelong illness.