The 144,000

[Checkpoint]

A question that is often debated, and it seems there are more that the usual two opinions or schools of thought.

The 144,000 are a group that is described in Revelation 7 and 14.

As we know, Revelation is itself a controversial book, largely because of its style and the language it uses.

Language that is sometimes literal and sometimes figurative or metaphorical. It is hard to know which best fits what is being portrayed.

Some see the 144,000 as being a literal number to be taken as literal Israelites.

Others see them as a symbolic number, and as being spiritual Israelites, meaning they are believers both Jew and Gentile.

Yet others have concluded that they are literally 144,000 yet they are not literal but spiritual Israelites.

What is your take, and why do you think that?

Revelation 7:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Revelation 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

[theStudent]

Hi Checkpoint.
I was trying to reconcile a few verses in Revelation with you viewpoint.
Could you help me to see how you understand them, and how they harmonize, please?

Revelation 7:4 says John heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel
Whom do you understand these tribes of the sons of Israel to be?

Revelation 7:9 continues... After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.
Whom do you understand these nations and tribes and peoples and tongues to be?

Revelation 7:15-17 says ...they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.�
In what way are they before the throne of God, rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple, and how is it that the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.�

When I compare these to Revelation 14:1 and 3, John says, Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. and verse 4 says These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb...
The 144,000 are brought from among mankind, and are now with the lamb on Mount Zion.
In your view is this mankind the tribes of the sons of Israel, and is Mount Zion heaven?

In Revelation 21:2-5, the holy city, New Jerusalem, is seen coming down out of heaven from God, likened to the tent of God being with mankind.
Is New Jerusalem the 144,000, and is mankind the tribes of the sons of Israel?

I hope you don't mind me asking these questions.
I'm just trying to get a full picture of how you are seeing these things.

Good post with interesting questions.

Whether any answers I might give agree with your own answers or do not, does not alter the validity or otherwise of what I wrote in post 65.

The "sons of Israel" I take as being the same as Paul's "This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring", Romans 9:8.

These are not "mankind", but "bought from among mankind".

That is, all believers, all those who inherit the promises. The bride, the New Jerusalem.

Oh, okay.
Based on my experience with you in the past Checkpoint, I wasn't going to ask, but I decided to give it another try.
However, if you don't want to share, and that's the way of your faith, I can't be vexed with you for that.

I myself haven't changed either, and this is the way of my faith.
2 Corinthians 10:5

. . .we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, . . .

What people say...
The 144,000 is the same as the great multitude.
The great multitude is a heavenly class.

What the Bible teaches...
The 144,000 is a literal number of followers, taken out from among other followers, to be joint heirs with Christ in heavenly kingdom.
(Revelation 7:4) And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:
(Revelation 14:1-5)
. . .Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.
I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps.
And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth.
These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,
and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

The tribes of the sons of Israel are to be ruled over by those in the heavenly kingdom.
(Luke 22:28-30)
“However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials;
and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,
so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

The great multitude/crowd is an unlimited number of people out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, who have been cleansed by the blood of the lamb, and therefore are in good standing with God.
(Revelation 7:9) After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.

The tent of God is the bride of Christ - New Jerusalem.
(Revelation 21:2-4)
. . .I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them.
And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.�

Conclusively...
The great multitude pass through the great tribulation, keeping their faithfulness and integrity to God. They thus benefit, from the blessings that pour forth from Christ and the 144,000 - the tent of God - to all men on earth, which come to include those brought back from the dead to a paradise on earth.
(Revelation 7:13-17)
In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?�
So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.� And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.
They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat,
because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.�

According to the Bible, the 144,000 is the tent of God which he uses to bless the great multitude and others on earth. (Revelation 7:15-17; 21:2-4)
Since the great multitude is covered by this tent - the 144,000, the great multitude cannot logically be the same as the 144,000. Nor are they a heavenly class.

So Checkpoint, your understanding does not harmonize with the scriptures.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 68 by onewithhim]

No I do not accept it, and I, too, have come to my conclusions by my own reasoning after studying the verses. I don't automatically gravitate to the JW position. I examine it and research and study it.

I did not say you gravitate to JW thinking "automatically", but "naturally".

That is, you "examine it and research and study it" to enable you to understand passages better, rather than going directly to scripture without that influence.

It's crystal clear that there are two different groups spoken of, as I see that TheStudent brought out in his post, and that I also have pointed out. The 144,000 are of "the sons of Israel," and the great crowd is of people "out of all nations." So, right there in those few verses there is a distinction between them.

Seemingly.

Consider what those distinctions are if we take them both literally:

The first has a literal number, 144,000, made up of literal "tribes of the sons of Israel" that are then literally numbered and literally named.

The second is also literally specific as to number, "that no one could number", and literally named as to what they are made up of.

The distinction is the specific way each is described.

Consider again the first description:

Everything is literal. It is either to be taken literally or it is not.

If the number is to be taken literally, then so are those that make up that number.

If those numbered are not to be taken as literally described, then neither is the number that also defines them.

This description is either to be understood literally or metaphorically.

The number and those so numbered are inextricably linked.

To make one literal and the other "spiritual" is inconsistent, illogical, and arbitrary.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 69 by theStudent]

The thing is, gravitating toward the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses does not mean that you are wrong, because the important thing is, is it in harmony with the scriptures? Is it what the Bible really teaches.

It is one thing to say that we believe something, but is the Bible in agreement with what we believe.

Agreed.

No group is always wrong, and no group is always right.

That is why we must "test all things; hold fast to that which is good".

That is what I do, and have found good what JWs teach and believe concerning "the soul", concerning "hell" and concerning "the Trinity".

I have posted those views, in my own words, often on this site.

However, I have not found such good in JW views on prophecy and future events and situations.

I advocate accordingly.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 70 by theStudent]

According to the Bible, the 144,000 is the tent of God which he uses to bless the great multitude and others on earth. (Revelation 7:15-17; 21:2-4)

The tent of God is not any such thing.

Since the great multitude is covered by this tent - the 144,000, the great multitude cannot logically be the same as the 144,000. Nor are they a heavenly class.

There are not two classes of the saved, heavenly and earthly.

That was never JW teaching before 1930.

It became such for historical reasons.

So Checkpoint, your understanding does not harmonize with the scriptures.

You are entitled to your opinion of that, as I am to mine.

The question we all need to face, and answer, is:

"Am I using eisegesis or am I using exegesis, in my reading and explanation of these verses or passages?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 73 by Checkpoint]

There are two classes of the saved, heavenly and earthly.

This much is obvious or else who will be the meek that inherit the earth? And how can Christ rule over the earth if its empty of human life? And how will God's will be done on earth if there is no one living on earth for that will to be done with?

There are countless promises related to the earth, so naturally there will be people living on it during that 1000 year rule of christ.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 73 by Checkpoint]

There are two classes of the saved, heavenly and earthly.

This much is obvious or else who will be the meek that inherit the earth? And how can Christ rule over the earth if its empty of human life? And how will God's will be done on earth if there is no one living on earth for that will to be done with?

There are countless promises related to the earth, so naturally there will be people living on it during that 1000 year rule of christ.

I did not say anything about place but about status.

Our future is a new heaven and earth, not one or the other.

As described by 2 Peter 3:1-14, Revelation 11:15-18, and Revelation 21 and 22.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 75 by Checkpoint]

Your sentence doesn't actually mean anything - one cannot live on both the earth and rule from heaven at the same time. Thus some will live in heaven ruling with Jesus and others meek ones will inherit the earth. Two eventualities; it is indeed one or the other. A child of three can understand this.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 71 by Checkpoint]

You effectively ended our discussion about this when you said that if something is literal then everything must be taken literally, and if something is figurative or symbolic, then everything must be taken symbolically. This is absurd, and this has been discussed before, and I see it as pointless to keep beating a dead horse. Your arguments do not stand up to scrutiny & yet others' exhaustive verifiable explanations do not move you. Therefore I am shaking the dust off my feet. Have an enjoyable evening.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 75 by Checkpoint]

Your sentence doesn't actually mean anything - one cannot live on both the earth and rule from heaven at the same time. Thus some will live in heaven ruling with Jesus and others meek ones will inherit the earth. Two eventualities; it is indeed one or the other. A child of three can understand this.

God chose how to describe our future in the passages I quoted, not me.

One eventuality, "a new heaven and earth", not one or the other.

Simple enough for any child of three to understand.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 71 by Checkpoint]

You effectively ended our discussion about this when you said that if something is literal then everything must be taken literally, and if something is figurative or symbolic, then everything must be taken symbolically. This is absurd, and this has been discussed before, and I see it as pointless to keep beating a dead horse. Your arguments do not stand up to scrutiny & yet others' exhaustive verifiable explanations do not move you. Therefore I am shaking the dust off my feet. Have an enjoyable evening.

To use an expression, it appears I am damned if I do and I am damned if I don't.

Either way, how sad.