Smokers need not apply...

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Elijah John
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Smokers need not apply...

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

(Luke 5.31)
And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are in health have no need of a physician; but they that are sick.
One of our Jehovah's Witnesses said that smokers cannot be baptized and become members of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Even, apparently, smokers who want to quit. They have to have already kicked the habit.

Seems this criteria could be extended to ALL who are struggling with their bad habits.

For debate:

In light of Luke 5.31, how Christian is this exclusionary attitude and requirement?

Should Christian groups welcome of exclude those who are still struggling with their bad habits?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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theStudent
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Re: Smokers need not apply...

Post #71

Post by theStudent »

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to theStudent]

Well, I realize you are asking him, but if I might butt in, whether these are sins or not is hard to say. It all depends on the circumstances. For example, dumping garbage on someone's land may be OK if they allowed you to, or if you had some valid reason for so doing. It's like asking is it OK to potty on somebody's property. Well, generally, no, of course. However, if you were like us, we who had to work on our train, over in the city park, during the off season, when the park was closed and so were all the bathrooms, we had no choice but to pee on the property. Drinking may or may not be OK. It just depends. If you can enjoy a few brews and getting tight once in a while and are still able to successfully get on with the rest of your life, no problem. If, however, you are prone to alcoholism, to drinking to the point where you can't really function anymore, and are running into all sorts of legal, financial, and family problems, then it's time to quit but good.
In what areas exactly would it depend?
To be clear.

In what category would you put viewing pornography? Is this a sin, or not?
What about smoking tobaco, instead of sniffing, or drinking?
Or dumping garbage on someone's land, without permission?
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Re: Smokers need not apply...

Post #72

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to theStudent]

It's hard for me to be clear unless I know more about the circumstances. When I was a grad. student in clinical psychology, one of my professors was doing serious research on pornography for the Joint Commission n Pornography and Obscenity. His studies found viewing pornography had no adverse effects, at lest on the sample of students he had in a Big Ten school. On the other hand, I've heard some people have gotten addicted on internet porno. So it depends on the individual. I've heard that people can become addicted to getting into discussion groups online. Well, if it is disrupting your life, then its not good for you. As I say, it depends on the individual and the circumstances. One man's pleasure, another guy's poison.

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theStudent
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Re: Smokers need not apply...

Post #73

Post by theStudent »

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to theStudent]

It's hard for me to be clear unless I know more about the circumstances. When I was a grad. student in clinical psychology, one of my professors was doing serious research on pornography for the Joint Commission n Pornography and Obscenity. His studies found viewing pornography had no adverse effects, at lest on the sample of students he had in a Big Ten school. On the other hand, I've heard some people have gotten addicted on internet porno. So it depends on the individual. I've heard that people can become addicted to getting into discussion groups online. Well, if it is disrupting your life, then its not good for you. As I say, it depends on the individual and the circumstances. One man's pleasure, another guy's poison.
Wow.
This is interesting.

So are you saying
  1. You don't know if it's a sin.
  2. It is not a sin.
  3. It iis a sin fullstop.
  4. It is a sin depending on who is doing it.
  5. It is a sin depending on why one is doing it.
  6. It depends on what scientists come up with. So scientists decide if it is a sin.
  7. God really has no say. The Bible is not relevant.
You didn't answer the other two.
Are we not trying to determine the Bible's view of sin, by the way?
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

hoghead1
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Re: Smokers need not apply...

Post #74

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to theStudent]

I firmly believe that God wants us to think for ourselves, question all authority, and maximize such beauty as we can under the circumstances. I seek to maintain a healthy skepticism about tradition, an emphasis on creativity, and favor personal experience over dogma. I think that alcohol, tobacco, and other intoxicating plants are beautiful things, which God put here specifically for us to enjoy, and I intend in so doing. I don't think the Bible specifically and directly addresses the matter under consideration, as it dos not deal with smoking, and it would be an abuse of Scripture to assume it is a textbook of modern medicine.

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Post #75

Post by Elijah John »

Yahu wrote:
A denomination doesn't have the right to dictate what is or is not sin when scripture is silent on the subject. Worry about the beam in your own eye instead of your neighbors tobacco habit. Religious demons are as big a problem as any addition demons.
:warning: Moderator Final Warning

Suggesting that other Christians are "religious demons" or influenced by "religious demons" is, literally, demonizing another faith and it's adherents. You are entitled to that opinion, but on this debating site which embraces civility, such statements are way out of line, especially when directed at others.

Please review the Rules.


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Moderator final warnings serve as the last strike towards users. Additional violations will result in a probation vote. Further infractions will lead to banishment. Any challenges or replies to moderator warnings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Blastcat
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Post #76

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 69 by hoghead1]




[center]The philosophy of drugs:
Part One[/center]


hoghead1 wrote:
Medicine is not an exact science simply because it is difficult to get a firm hand on controlling all the variables so that you can do nice, neat, tidy studies.
Ok, fair enough, the human body is very complex.

I can think of a lot of science that has to deal with a lot of variables that are hard to control. Medicine doesn't seem to be much different than those. It's a pretty exact finding that cigarettes cause cancer, for example. That's medical science, right?

I don't think that medical science is just "hit and miss" in the way of throwing darts blindfolded might be. Medical science seems to me, a bit more accurate.

hoghead1 wrote:
That's why doctors have changed their minds and will continue to do so and why the literature is full of often conflicting studies.
Frankly, I can't think of ONE kind of science that isn't able and hasn't "changed it's mind". Maybe pseudo-science doesn't.

hoghead1 wrote:
I already mentioned about the big turnaround on pot. Now, some doctors are seeing nicotine as of great medical benefit in curing various neurological disorders from Parkinson's Disease to Schizophrenia.
Yeah, science works by investigating even the strangest hypotheses.
I have no way of verifying how these doctors are forming their opinions.
hoghead1 wrote:
One study found that smokers were far less prone to developing Parkinson's Disease than nonsmokers. Check out sometime Discovery Magazine, March 2014 article titled "Nicotine: The New Wonder Drug?'
I noticed the "?" at the end of that magazine title.
I'm not sure that the magazine is claiming that nicotine is the new wonder drug.

The Discovery Magazine goes for "news that sells".
I don't think it's meant to be the latest in science text books.

hoghead1 wrote:
Incidentally, alcohol, good old booze, is now recognized to help less risk of various diseases and heart problems. I recently had some female clients in rehab who were in fact advised by their doctors to drink wine during their pregnancy.
Yep, some doctors have different advice.
Here is an interesting study about the health benefits of "good old booze":

http://globalnews.ca/news/2591337/a-dai ... o-be-true/

hoghead1 wrote:
Our whole cultural philosophy of drugs is messy because it is very conflicted and often very arbitrary. On one hand, you have your strict Puritanical ethics. On the other, much of American culture sanctifies heavy indulgence. Work hard and get as high as you can. Prohibition, yet live it up in the speaks. It's also messy because it can be very arbitrary. Certain drugs are ruled as dangerous, made illegal. Many of the legal, prescribed drugs also have very dangerous side effects. I'm sure you have seen the TV commercials warning about various drugs out there. Heroin is illegal, but Methadone, which is just as dangerous and addictive, is legal. Pot o still listed as a Class I drug by the feds, even though it has no withdrawal symptoms. Xanax is prescribed, yet carries very dangerous withdrawal effects, including seizure and death. Cocaine was once highly recommended by doctors, yet now is illegal, though still used medically. Morphine is highly addictive, but still widely used, as it is one f the most effective pain killers. Most of the addicts from WW 2 were physician-engendered addicts. Many today are addicted to prescription medications. That's what killed Presley. So, yes, I have good reason to think our philosophy is a mess.
I'm not too sure what you mean by "philosophy". Maybe you mean.. "opinion".

____________

Questions:

  • 1. When you say that medicine isn't an exact science, what is, in your opinion an example of an exact science that has "nice, neat, tidy studies"?
    2. Are you saying that doctors are all medical researchers?
    3. How is mind changing indicative of inexact science?
    4. Is is appropriate to change one's mind due to new information?
    5. Has there ever been or can there ever be new information about medicine?
    6.Has there ever been or can there ever be progress in the field of medicine that would warrant a change of mind by doctors?
    7. Is it appropriate, in your opinion, to believe every medical claim that we read about?
    8. Do you consider magazines like the "Discovery Magazine" a reliable source for what is considered good science, or a source for new scientific claims?
    9. Is one positive scientific study enough to establish that a hypothesis is a fact?
    10.Are you personally convinced that good old booze is good for your health?
    11. When you are using the word "philosophy", are you talking about opinions?
____________


:smileright:

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theStudent
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Re: Smokers need not apply...

Post #77

Post by theStudent »

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to theStudent]

I firmly believe that God wants us to think for ourselves, question all authority, and maximize such beauty as we can under the circumstances. I seek to maintain a healthy skepticism about tradition, an emphasis on creativity, and favor personal experience over dogma. I think that alcohol, tobacco, and other intoxicating plants are beautiful things, which God put here specifically for us to enjoy, and I intend in so doing. I don't think the Bible specifically and directly addresses the matter under consideration, as it dos not deal with smoking, and it would be an abuse of Scripture to assume it is a textbook of modern medicine.
Well, I understand that we all have views, and all of us, I believe, were born with a conscience, which the Bible says is trained by use.
So, as a child grows its conscience is shaped by their surroundings, their guidance, or lack of it, etc.
Hence, something can seem right to a person, even though it is wrong, simply because their conscience was trained to accept it as right.

Some persons' maturity can even be stunted, simply by the company they keep.
The Bible states these facts, and shows that a person's conscience can be trained properly by God's guidance.
(Hebrews 5:11-14)
Concerning him we have much to say and hard to be explained, since YOU have become dull in YOUR hearing. For, indeed, although YOU ought to be teachers in view of the time, YOU again need someone to teach YOU from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God; and YOU have become such as need milk, not solid food. For everyone that partakes of milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their perceptive powers trained to distinguish both right and wrong.
For Jehovah's Witnesses, this means that a person's conscience can become a reliable "compass", when guided by Bible principles.
In other words, their conscience is so well trained, they can perceive what is right or wrong, without someone having to write out a law for every possible thing, by just following basic Bible principles.

Take the following, for example that were mentioned.
Smoking Pornography
  • Avoid greed, and have self control. Respect others. 1 Corinthians 7:2; Colossians 3:5, 6; 1 Thessalonians 4:3-6
  • Train you mind on clean things, not filth, and you will have peace. "You are what you eat". Phillipians 4:8, 9; Romans 12:2
One cannot honestly say they value their life, and the life of others, and be a smoker.
While nicotine may not kill you, the same as pornography wouldn't kill you, they both are bad habits - addictions, that we must try to break. According to the Bible, they are both sinful practices.
(Romans 6:12) . . .do not let sin continue to rule as king in your mortal bodies so that you should obey their desires.
...the possibility that people can be addicted to nicotine, but not die from it, is at the heart of a growing debate in the scientific community. Scientists don't doubt nicotine is addictive, but some wonder if a daily dose could be as benign as the caffeine many of us get from a morning coffee.
(John 8:34) “Most truly I say to you, every doer of sin is a slave of sin.

Some of these principles apply to almost all things in life.
A person guided by such principles, would not dump garbage on their neighbor's property.
They would not fondle the breast or genitals of a minor.
They would not sit and be entertained by movies featuring violence, profanity, vulgar jokes, nor blood and gore.
They would not get involved in dangerous sports, like car racing.
Psalms 11:5; Ephesians 4:31, 32; 5:3-6;

They have their sense of awareness trained by scriptural principles, to know what is right and wrong.
So true Christians do not condone these things, by baptizing persons who show that the scripture have no impact on how they live their lives.
If the scriptures do not impact on our lives, how can we make a dedication to do his will.

In everyday life, people apply these same principles.
Do you think you would be hired as a police officer, if you were a known pimp?
Would you not first have to show that you are not pursuing that lifestyle anymore?

If someone does not have control over their mind, and body, how can they be committed to helping others change their lives.

When we follow Bible principles, imo, we are on the right track.
Some people find that out a bit too late, like when they are on their dying bed, or when they get bad news from their doctor, or when they have no control on their children who want to follow mommy's, or daddy's bad ways.

But apart from sinning each person makes the decision on what their lives will be.
Is Nicotine Dangerous?
Nicotine in high doses acts as an effective nerve poison and can have a number of potentially harmful side effects. It is extremely physically addicting, though estimates on the exact degree of addiction range wildly from very low levels to those rivaling that of heroine or cocaine. If taken in large doses — larger than almost anyone is likely to achieve through smoking — it may induce severe nausea or vomiting. In small doses, it may increase blood pressure, which can prove harmful, or in very rare cases, be fatal to those with dangerous heart conditions.
Whether experts know if this is a fact or not, should it matter?
What are the benefits - other than quitting smoking?
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

hoghead1
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Re: Smokers need not apply...

Post #78

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 77 by theStudent]

Yes, but you see, as Hyman Rothman once wisely said, "Doctors, what do they know?" The medicine is not an exact science, and its no surprise the medical world is full of conflicting studies and claims on nicotine, for example, just as it is on pot. Try Discovery Magazine, March, 2014, where you will find a major article titled "Nicotine: The New Wonder Drug?"

There are various models of ultimate authority in Christendom: One is church-type Christianity, where the church is the ultimate authority, your conscience. Anything I have seen or read about the Watchtower Society shows it is a church-type form of Christianity. The Society is your conscience. Hence, it is a top-down, no-questions-asked approach.

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Post #79

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to Blastcat]

There is kind of a pecking order in science. An example of an exact science would be something like physics or chemistry. The "hard' sciences. Top of the pile. "Soft" sciences are fields like medicine, psychology, sociology, etc. The reason is that the "soft" sciences are unable to control, manipulate and measure all the variables as well as the "hard" sciences, though the "hard" sciences also have loads of room for speculation and can't always guarantee their conclusions. "Soft" sciences can be especially "iffy," can have all sorts of "holes" in their studies, which is why the results are often debatable and then individuals in these fields often change their minds.

Discovery Magazine seemed just as reliable a source as any other one might read on the topic. It cited solid medical researchers. If you are concerned, try and dig up a copy, read for yourself, and then you decide.

By "philosophy," I mean one's whole outlook, one's value system.

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Re: Smokers need not apply...

Post #80

Post by onewithhim »

theStudent wrote:
hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to theStudent]

I firmly believe that God wants us to think for ourselves, question all authority, and maximize such beauty as we can under the circumstances. I seek to maintain a healthy skepticism about tradition, an emphasis on creativity, and favor personal experience over dogma. I think that alcohol, tobacco, and other intoxicating plants are beautiful things, which God put here specifically for us to enjoy, and I intend in so doing. I don't think the Bible specifically and directly addresses the matter under consideration, as it dos not deal with smoking, and it would be an abuse of Scripture to assume it is a textbook of modern medicine.
Well, I understand that we all have views, and all of us, I believe, were born with a conscience, which the Bible says is trained by use.
So, as a child grows its conscience is shaped by their surroundings, their guidance, or lack of it, etc.
Hence, something can seem right to a person, even though it is wrong, simply because their conscience was trained to accept it as right.

Some persons' maturity can even be stunted, simply by the company they keep.
The Bible states these facts, and shows that a person's conscience can be trained properly by God's guidance.
(Hebrews 5:11-14)
Concerning him we have much to say and hard to be explained, since YOU have become dull in YOUR hearing. For, indeed, although YOU ought to be teachers in view of the time, YOU again need someone to teach YOU from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God; and YOU have become such as need milk, not solid food. For everyone that partakes of milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their perceptive powers trained to distinguish both right and wrong.
For Jehovah's Witnesses, this means that a person's conscience can become a reliable "compass", when guided by Bible principles.
In other words, their conscience is so well trained, they can perceive what is right or wrong, without someone having to write out a law for every possible thing, by just following basic Bible principles.

Take the following, for example that were mentioned.
Smoking Pornography
  • Avoid greed, and have self control. Respect others. 1 Corinthians 7:2; Colossians 3:5, 6; 1 Thessalonians 4:3-6
  • Train you mind on clean things, not filth, and you will have peace. "You are what you eat". Phillipians 4:8, 9; Romans 12:2
One cannot honestly say they value their life, and the life of others, and be a smoker.
While nicotine may not kill you, the same as pornography wouldn't kill you, they both are bad habits - addictions, that we must try to break. According to the Bible, they are both sinful practices.
(Romans 6:12) . . .do not let sin continue to rule as king in your mortal bodies so that you should obey their desires.
...the possibility that people can be addicted to nicotine, but not die from it, is at the heart of a growing debate in the scientific community. Scientists don't doubt nicotine is addictive, but some wonder if a daily dose could be as benign as the caffeine many of us get from a morning coffee.
(John 8:34) “Most truly I say to you, every doer of sin is a slave of sin.

Some of these principles apply to almost all things in life.
A person guided by such principles, would not dump garbage on their neighbor's property.
They would not fondle the breast or genitals of a minor.
They would not sit and be entertained by movies featuring violence, profanity, vulgar jokes, nor blood and gore.
They would not get involved in dangerous sports, like car racing.
Psalms 11:5; Ephesians 4:31, 32; 5:3-6;

They have their sense of awareness trained by scriptural principles, to know what is right and wrong.
So true Christians do not condone these things, by baptizing persons who show that the scripture have no impact on how they live their lives.
If the scriptures do not impact on our lives, how can we make a dedication to do his will.

In everyday life, people apply these same principles.
Do you think you would be hired as a police officer, if you were a known pimp?
Would you not first have to show that you are not pursuing that lifestyle anymore?

If someone does not have control over their mind, and body, how can they be committed to helping others change their lives.

When we follow Bible principles, imo, we are on the right track.
Some people find that out a bit too late, like when they are on their dying bed, or when they get bad news from their doctor, or when they have no control on their children who want to follow mommy's, or daddy's bad ways.

But apart from sinning each person makes the decision on what their lives will be.
Is Nicotine Dangerous?
Nicotine in high doses acts as an effective nerve poison and can have a number of potentially harmful side effects. It is extremely physically addicting, though estimates on the exact degree of addiction range wildly from very low levels to those rivaling that of heroine or cocaine. If taken in large doses — larger than almost anyone is likely to achieve through smoking — it may induce severe nausea or vomiting. In small doses, it may increase blood pressure, which can prove harmful, or in very rare cases, be fatal to those with dangerous heart conditions.
Whether experts know if this is a fact or not, should it matter?
What are the benefits - other than quitting smoking?
Excellent, excellent post. I can only pray that somebody will find it compelling enough to possibly change their thinking.

I had previously mentioned the tar in a cigarette, and how it makes an ashtray sticky. That is what is happening in a smoker's lungs. There is nothing about smoking that is beneficial. My late father used to say, "A cigarette has a fire on one end and a fool on the other."

How can anyone argue with what the medical community and Science has had to say about the perils of tobacco use? It's a known FACT that it is detrimental to anyone's health, whether it shows up sooner or later.

The fact that Jehovah's Witnesses have taken the route of "erring on the side of caution" should impress folks who care about being clean inside and out, instead of disagreeing with our position, IMHO. The verses that have been referred to are hard to combat, aren't they?

"...Let us cleanse ourselves of EVERY defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God's fear." (2Corinthians 7:1)

"With the one keeping clean you [Jehovah] will show yourself clean, and with the crooked one you will act astutely." (2Samuel 22:27)



Apparently physical cleanliness meant alot to God in Bible times, because he ordered the Israelites to practice ways of doing things that kept them clean, and transcended the filthy ways of the pagan nations. His laws included the treatment of diseases, making sure their water was clean, the eating of certain foods and eschewing other foods (like shrimp & other foods that scavenged the excrement of other animals), handling dead bodies a certain way so as not to be contaminated by anything, disposing of sewage, bathing frequently and washing clothes in a timely manner.

Truly, can anyone really imagine God being OK with any of his people sucking smoke into their lungs, as long as they took a bath and wore clean clothes? Just asking.

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