The 144,000

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Checkpoint
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The 144,000

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

A question that is often debated, and it seems there are more that the usual two opinions or schools of thought.

The 144,000 are a group that is described in Revelation 7 and 14.

As we know, Revelation is itself a controversial book, largely because of its style and the language it uses.

Language that is sometimes literal and sometimes figurative or metaphorical. It is hard to know which best fits what is being portrayed.

Some see the 144,000 as being a literal number to be taken as literal Israelites.

Others see them as a symbolic number, and as being spiritual Israelites, meaning they are believers both Jew and Gentile.

Yet others have concluded that they are literally 144,000 yet they are not literal but spiritual Israelites.

What is your take, and why do you think that?
Revelation 7:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Revelation 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.
Last edited by Checkpoint on Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The 144,00

Post #91

Post by Fellowchristian »

[Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

The scripture is very much clear, the 144000 are servants of God sealed from all the tribes of the children of Israel.
The Christians may be termed ‘Spiritual Israel’. But how can they be from any tribes of the children of Israel?
Let us take a closer look to the scripture.
Apostle John doesn’t say he SAW the angel sealing the 144000 from the Israel.
He says, he heard the number of those who WERE sealed.
It is very much clear from John's narration that the sealing of the 144000 has happened before the time John is brought to witness the scene Rev 7 and he is reporting the same to the saints in 7 churches

He is seeing an angel with the seal of God talking to 4 other angels who are assigned for some other mission.
Rev 7: 2. I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Update:
The mission of the angel with the seal has already started before he talking to the 4 angels.

The mission of the angel with the seal will cease just prior to the time the four other angels start with their mission of hurting the earth and the seas.


John tells to the saints in 7 churches that 144000 have already been sealed. His message to the 7 churches is that the mission of the angel with the seal HAS NOT CEASED, but it will cease before the moment the 4 angels holding the winds begin their mission.

Take note, the mission of the angel with the seal is to SEAL even the last one who is a servant of God.

Let me ask, what prohibits to assume that the angel with the seal started his mission from the day Heavens declared anyone a servant of God from earth?

The 144000 were said to be the servants of God SEALED from "all the tribes of children of Israel�. Let us consider 14000 as a symbolic number, but a definite number, ie no more to be added to the fold of sealed for the reason he is from a tribe of Israel.
“The children of Israel�, we know they are the people under the Old Testament covenant.

Apostle John writes to the saints in the 7 churches that he heard the number of those who 'WERE' sealed under the Old Testament covenant.
John is telling them that he heard from the angel with the seal that he shouting to the 4 other angels, not to start with their mission, until he finishes sealing the last one with a title, “Servant of God�.
The message of assurance to the saints in the 7 churches (of course all the New testament saints) from Apostle John is that, we all are getting sealed, for we all are servants of God, irrespective of the title, “From a tribe of children of Israel�.
(Take note the saints from Smyrna and Philadelphia, the two churches, Lord didn’t charge any blame, were under the misery of being blasphemed by Jews.)
What we can assume is 144000 from all the tribes of the children of Israel have been sealed and the angel with the seal is on his mission of sealing many more of the saints of God on the queue.
The angel with the seal is still on the mission and we don’t know when the 4 angels are getting to be unleashed (Rev 9:14)

Let us put forth a question to Apostle John. “Who are those sealed after those 144000 sealed?�
His answer we read, “I saw a multitude,that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.�
What is their criteria, if not they not for coming from a tribe from the children of Israel?

The answer is from heaven, “they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.�

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Post #92

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 89 by tam]

I couldn't glean an answer to my question from what you posted. If as it is clear the "sheep" are righteous and they are subjects of the kingdom. And the "meek" are also righteous they are reigning over the sheep, wouldn't that make two groups of righteous?
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tam
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Post #93

Post by tam »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 89 by tam]

I couldn't glean an answer to my question from what you posted. If as it is clear the "sheep" are righteous and they are subjects of the kingdom. And the "meek" are also righteous they are reigning over the sheep, wouldn't that make two groups of righteous?

I think it is because your question focuses upon righteousness, and it is Christ who is the Righteous One. Those who belong to Him are covered by Him, so that there is no judgment for them, their sins are forgiven, and He trains them up. The sheep also have a covering: one that grants them entrance into the Kingdom: love, which is made manifest in their deeds, and as we know "love covers over a multitude of sins."




But there are two groups of people - yes: one group reigns with Christ as king-priests (for a thousand years); the other group enters as subjects.


If you have a specific point to your questioning regarding the meek, then you might have to spell it out more for me.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #94

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote:there are two groups of people - yes: one group reigns with Christ as king-priests (for a thousand years); the other group enters as subjects.
That's exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses believe. It is nice to find common ground because we are often criticised for teaching there are two groups of people, one that will eventually rule with Christ and the others (of which I hope to be a number) that will not be ruling but will be subjects of that rule.

We believe the ruling group make up what Jesus refers to as God's Kingdom which we sometimes refer to as a government.

We call this "The good news of the kingdom"
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Post #95

Post by tam »

[Replying to post 93 by JehovahsWitness]

Peace to you JW.



Every religion (that I know of) has some truth. How else could they deceive the elect (who seek truth)? But every religion also has some lies (errors). So no religion can truthfully be called the TRUTH.


I learned this from THE Truth: the Christ. Although I spent some time trying to find the 'true religion' for a while also, thinking (in error) that there must be one. Until I learned that there is no true religion (for the reasons I shared above); there is only TRUTH.



We believe the ruling group make up what Jesus refers to as God's Kingdom which we sometimes refer to as a government.
I don't think that makes sense.


Because the sheep (from the sheep and the goats parable) don't enter into the government. But they DO enter into the Kingdom. Yes?

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #96

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 89 by tam]

I couldn't glean an answer to my question from what you posted. If as it is clear the "sheep" are righteous and they are subjects of the kingdom. And the "meek" are also righteous they are reigning over the sheep, wouldn't that make two groups of righteous?

I think it is because your question focuses upon righteousness, and it is Christ who is the Righteous One. Those who belong to Him are covered by Him, so that there is no judgment for them, their sins are forgiven, and He trains them up. The sheep also have a covering: one that grants them entrance into the Kingdom: love, which is made manifest in their deeds, and as we know "love covers over a multitude of sins."




But there are two groups of people - yes: one group reigns with Christ as king-priests (for a thousand years); the other group enters as subjects.


If you have a specific point to your questioning regarding the meek, then you might have to spell it out more for me.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say before that there are not two groups of Christians? Or is my memory failing me?

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Post #97

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Because the sheep (from the sheep and the goats parable) don't enter into the government. But they DO enter into the Kingdom.
That's fine, scratch the word "government"...

We Jehovah's witnesses (like you) believe there are two groups (like you do) one group that will rule in the kingdom and the other that will be ruled over (subjects of the kingdom)

#1) Rulers
#2) Subjects


tam wrote:But there are two groups of people - yes: one group reigns with Christ as king-priests (for a thousand years);
Image
tam wrote: the other group enters as subjects.
Image



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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:41 am, edited 3 times in total.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #98

Post by tam »

onewithhim wrote:
tam wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 89 by tam]

I couldn't glean an answer to my question from what you posted. If as it is clear the "sheep" are righteous and they are subjects of the kingdom. And the "meek" are also righteous they are reigning over the sheep, wouldn't that make two groups of righteous?

I think it is because your question focuses upon righteousness, and it is Christ who is the Righteous One. Those who belong to Him are covered by Him, so that there is no judgment for them, their sins are forgiven, and He trains them up. The sheep also have a covering: one that grants them entrance into the Kingdom: love, which is made manifest in their deeds, and as we know "love covers over a multitude of sins."




But there are two groups of people - yes: one group reigns with Christ as king-priests (for a thousand years); the other group enters as subjects.


If you have a specific point to your questioning regarding the meek, then you might have to spell it out more for me.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say before that there are not two groups of Christians? Or is my memory failing me?
There are not two groups of Christians, correct. Your memory is not failing you.

The above is not talking about two groups of Christians.

But there are those who rule as king-priests with Christ (the Christians - the 144 and the great crowd). And there are those who enter into the Kingdom as subjects (same as most of us are right now, subjects in whatever kingdom - country- that we live in), and these are people from the nations who are NOT Christian, but who are alive at the time Christ returns and establishes the Kingdom upon the earth: some are sheep and invited in, some are goats and cast out.


Peace to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #99

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Christ returns and establishes the Kingdom upon the earth: some are sheep and invited in, some are goats and cast out.
Interesting, so I have a question, when Christ returns to establish the kingdom, (I take it that will be the start of the 1000 year rule) will the goats be "cast out"* at the moment he returns or will they live as subjects of kingdom for a while?


* could you explain what you understand "cast out" to mean?

Thanks,

JW
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #100

Post by tam »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote: Christ returns and establishes the Kingdom upon the earth: some are sheep and invited in, some are goats and cast out.
Interesting, so I have a question, when Christ returns to establish the kingdom, (I take it that will be the start of the 1000 year rule) will the goats be "cast out"* at the moment he returns or will they live as subjects of kingdom for a while?


* could you explain what you understand "cast out" to mean?

Thanks,

JW

Peace to you,

Christ establishes His Kingdom (yes, that will be the start of the 1000 year rule). The nations are all gathered before Him (the nations who are not Christian/anointed). The sheep are invited IN to the Kingdom, the goats are cast out (into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth: jealousy, regret, especially since some who think they should be in, are those to whom Christ says, "away from me, you evil doers, I never knew you).


This is all based upon their words and deeds from their lives, and according to the conditions that Christ says to the sheep (and the goats): I was hungry and you fed me (or did not feed me, in the case of the goats). I was naked, and you clothed me (or did not clothe me). I was in prison and you visited me (or did not visit me). Etc.


We can know that there are those who are outside the Kingdom, because at the end of the thousand years, gog and magog ride across the breadth of the earth to attack the people God loves. But fire comes down out of heaven and devours them.




Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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