The 144,000

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Checkpoint
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The 144,000

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

A question that is often debated, and it seems there are more that the usual two opinions or schools of thought.

The 144,000 are a group that is described in Revelation 7 and 14.

As we know, Revelation is itself a controversial book, largely because of its style and the language it uses.

Language that is sometimes literal and sometimes figurative or metaphorical. It is hard to know which best fits what is being portrayed.

Some see the 144,000 as being a literal number to be taken as literal Israelites.

Others see them as a symbolic number, and as being spiritual Israelites, meaning they are believers both Jew and Gentile.

Yet others have concluded that they are literally 144,000 yet they are not literal but spiritual Israelites.

What is your take, and why do you think that?
Revelation 7:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Revelation 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.
Last edited by Checkpoint on Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

2timothy316
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Post #111

Post by 2timothy316 »

tam wrote: Peace to you!

Of course there are people on the earth outside of the Kingdom (during the thousand years).

First, Christ casts the goats out into the darkness (where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth - which represents jealousy, bitterness, regret, anger). It is in darkness, because it is not in the LIGHT (Christ).
The scripture I am guessing you are referring to is Matthew 8:12. However, reading the context I don't see how you're tying what Jesus was saying about the Jews of his day being in darkness with the future separation of the sheep and goats (AKA Weeds and wheat).

Perhaps you are thinking of the Weeds and the Wheat? But in that illustration the end of the weeds is not darkness. It's destruction. Please compare, Matthew 13:40-43 "Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be."

It seems you are matching the two together because of the term 'gnashing of teeth'. The Bible denotes there are more than just one group that 'gnash' their teeth. The Jews gnashing their teeth in darkness in Jesus' day in Matt 8 are not the same people spoken of in the 'conclusion of the system of things' in Matt 13.

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Post #112

Post by tam »

Sorry, I was supposed to share something else first...

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Re: The 144,00

Post #113

Post by Fellowchristian »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

The Jehovah's Witness take on it is that they are spiritual Israelites, spirit begotten born again Christians.

JW
JW has opted the name 'Jehovah' in place of Lord in Rom 14:8.
Read the next verse explaining who is Lord mentioned in this verse.
"For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living."

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Post #114

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Peace to you!

Of course there are people on the earth outside of the Kingdom (during the thousand years).

If you want me to describe exactly what that (the Kingdom on earth during the thousand years) is going to look like, I cannot.
To respond to your two statements above:

(1) If there will be people on the earth, during the Thousand-Year Reign, outside of the Kingdom that are not followers of Christ, but actually wicked, then tell me---what is Armageddon for? Who, exactly, is destroyed at Armageddon?

(2) It's interesting that you, who get your ideas directly "from Christ," do not have a clue as to what the Kingdom on Earth will be like during the thousand years. It is throughout the Bible, and Jehovah's Witnesses have been telling people about it for over 100 years. (See my thread "Paradise on Earth.)


:flower:

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Re: The 144,00

Post #115

Post by Fellowchristian »

Checkpoint wrote:
A question that is often debated, and it seems there are more that the usual two opinions or schools of thought.

The 144,000 are a group that is described in Revelation 7 and 14.

As we know, Revelation is itself a controversial book, largely because of its style and the language it uses.

Language that is sometimes literal and sometimes figurative or metaphorical. It is hard to know which best fits what is being portrayed.

Some see the 144,000 as being a literal number to be taken as literal Israelites.

Others see them as a symbolic number, and as being spiritual Israelites, meaning they are believers both Jew and Gentile.

Yet others have concluded they are literally 144,000 yet they are not literal but spiritual Israelites.

What is your take, and why do you think that?

Revelation 7:


4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:



Revelation 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

4 ....... These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.



In Jermiah 2:3 we can find God calling the Israel as the 'firstfruits' of His harvest.

"Israel was holy to the LORD, the firstfruits of his harvest; all who devoured her were held guilty, and disaster overtook them,'" declares the LORD."


In Rev 7:9& 10 we read of the rest of the harvest unto Him.
"9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

We find those redeemed and sealed from all the tribes of Israel as the firstfruits of His harvest and the great multitude which no man could number follows as the rest of the harvest. (Rev 14:15&16)


"Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them." Isa 34:16

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Post #116

Post by tam »

onewithhim wrote:
tam wrote: Peace to you!

Of course there are people on the earth outside of the Kingdom (during the thousand years).

If you want me to describe exactly what that (the Kingdom on earth during the thousand years) is going to look like, I cannot.
To respond to your two statements above:

(1) If there will be people on the earth, during the Thousand-Year Reign, outside of the Kingdom that are not followers of Christ, but actually wicked, then tell me---what is Armageddon for? Who, exactly, is destroyed at Armageddon?
Are people not part of "gog and magog"? Does the wts not teach that these people are in the Kingdom during the thousand years - but at the end of the thousand years, they ride across the earth to destroy the people God loves? And are these not the ones that are devoured by fire from heaven? The war that God fights on behalf of the people He loves?


The separation of the sheep and the goats occurs when Christ returns. I think we agree upon that. We may disagree upon who the sheep and the goats ARE, but we do agree (I think) that the sheep enter into the Kingdom (and if you accept that the sheep are people who are on the earth, then you MUST accept that the Kingdom is also established upon the earth)


So the separating of the sheep and the goats begins at the start of the thousand years.

Armageddon (the great war of God) occurs at the end of the thousand years (against gog and magog). Because that is the war that God fights, on behalf of His people. (fire devours them from heaven)


**


(2) It's interesting that you, who get your ideas directly "from Christ," do not have a clue as to what the Kingdom on Earth will be like during the thousand years. It is throughout the Bible, and Jehovah's Witnesses have been telling people about it for over 100 years. (See my thread "Paradise on Earth.)
It is also interesting that you equate "I can't tell you exactly what it will look like"... with... "I do not have a clue what the Kingdom on earth will BE like"


I have shared many things that I have received from the Spirit about the Kingdom. But I make NO claim to know everything. (Or to know anything on my own for that matter: I can only share as I have received.)



For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away.

For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.




But maybe the wts claims to know everything?

*shrugs*



Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #117

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote:
onewithhim wrote:
tam wrote: Peace to you!

Of course there are people on the earth outside of the Kingdom (during the thousand years).

If you want me to describe exactly what that (the Kingdom on earth during the thousand years) is going to look like, I cannot.
To respond to your two statements above:

(1) If there will be people on the earth, during the Thousand-Year Reign, outside of the Kingdom that are not followers of Christ, but actually wicked, then tell me---what is Armageddon for? Who, exactly, is destroyed at Armageddon?
Are people not part of "gog and magog"? Does the wts not teach that these people are in the Kingdom during the thousand years - but at the end of the thousand years, they ride across the earth to destroy the people God loves? And are these not the ones that are devoured by fire from heaven? The war that God fights on behalf of the people He loves?


The separation of the sheep and the goats occurs when Christ returns. I think we agree upon that. We may disagree upon who the sheep and the goats ARE, but we do agree (I think) that the sheep enter into the Kingdom (and if you accept that the sheep are people who are on the earth, then you MUST accept that the Kingdom is also established upon the earth)


So the separating of the sheep and the goats begins at the start of the thousand years.

Armageddon (the great war of God) occurs at the end of the thousand years (against gog and magog). Because that is the war that God fights, on behalf of His people. (fire devours them from heaven)


**


(2) It's interesting that you, who get your ideas directly "from Christ," do not have a clue as to what the Kingdom on Earth will be like during the thousand years. It is throughout the Bible, and Jehovah's Witnesses have been telling people about it for over 100 years. (See my thread "Paradise on Earth.)
It is also interesting that you equate "I can't tell you exactly what it will look like"... with... "I do not have a clue what the Kingdom on earth will BE like"


I have shared many things that I have received from the Spirit about the Kingdom. But I make NO claim to know everything. (Or to know anything on my own for that matter: I can only share as I have received.)



For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away.

For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.




But maybe the wts claims to know everything?

*shrugs*



Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Did you answer the question: What do you mean by the goats are "cast out"? I can't seem to see it.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #118

Post by tam »


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Post #119

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: I mean nothing more than what I said with "cast out". They would be outside the kingdom that is upon the earth.
tam wrote: Of course there are people on the earth outside of the Kingdom (during the thousand years).
So the meek will inherit the earth but they will be living alongside those in spiritual darkness? The righteous will be living on "the earth" alongside those that hate, rape, kill and have no respect for God's standards?

How is that different from life now?

JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #120

Post by tam »

[Replying to post 118 by JehovahsWitness]

No, the 'goats' will be OUTSIDE the Kingdom. There is no death (or mourning) inside the Kingdom.


If you are having trouble understanding the Kingdom being a place upon the earth, but there also being an OUTSIDE the Kingdom, then my Lord reminded me of the Garden of Eden.

Adam (and Eve) were taken from OUTSIDE the Garden, and brought INSIDE the Garden. Later they were CAST OUT of the garden; and could no longer access the Garden.

But the Garden (Paradise) itself was not destroyed.

Yes?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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