Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

[Elijah John]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

[otseng]

Talk about no brains Hoghead must be frothing at the mouth by now. Take your pills, mate, and go to bed.

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[2timothy316]

The questions about what Witnesses believe about who is saved right now is available even in a talk.

Move the slider on the time bar to the 44:15 time mark.

https://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODPrograms ... 10_3_VIDEO

The short version is that not even a single Jehovah's Witnesses has been given the mark of salvation yet. If we can't judge ourselves to be saved how can we even think about judging anyone else? Also, that judgement is not yet happened. It will be a person's relationship with God that will save them. Not the religion that they profess they are in. It is the righteous that will be marked for saving and if anyone thinks that the righteous will only be found in one group doesn't know the Bible. It wasn't always only the Jews that God saved. In many of the accounts others who were saved along with the Hebrews. Many from Egypt followed the Hebrews from Egypt because of what they had seen. Rabah and her entire family were spared at Jericho. Why?

[For_The_Kingdom]

No I don't see it. What is the first word in the answer to 'Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Feel That They Are the Only People Who Will Be Saved?' The first word is NO.

It is "no, but.." And what one will find is that what comes after the ellipsis will contradict the "no".

It can't be clearer. You're seeing what you want to see. Me, a Witness telling that you're wrong isn't enough. A quote directly from our official website confirming what I said isn't enough.

I've already stated what was wrong with the link that you provided...I expect you to address what I said DIRECTLY, instead of speaking in general.

I can only conclude you're going to tell yourself what you want to hear and see what you want to see.

Nope, not at all. Again, I actually made a case as to why the article is false, and what I didn't get in return is any refutation of what I said.

I could have all 19 million Witnesses and Bible students confirm what I have already told you and I'm quite sure you would still see what you want to see.

No need for the 19 million, because one false article is more than enough.

There's no point, your mind is stuck and seeing things that aren't there.

Seeing things that aren't there? What? Your entire THEOLOGY is based upon stuff that isn't there.

There is ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, NO SCRIPTURE that supports the FALSE NOTION of a second chance AFTER one is resurrected. In the article that YOU posted, it doesn't give a scripture for it...yet it clearly gives a scripture for something that has absolutely nothing to do with salvation, such as the "resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous".

It gave a scripture for that red herring, but it didn't give a scripture for this false notion of a "second chance". Why? Because there is no such scripture.

But I am seeing things that isn't there? Yeah, ok.

It's like you're hallucinating.

Hallucinating, eh? So, how am I supposed to interpret?

"Many millions who lived in centuries past and who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses will have an opportunity for salvation."

Now, where in the Bible do you have ANY SCRIPTURAL support for such a belief?? Oh, and this opportunity for salvation that the Watch Tower claim these people will have...doesn't that mean that they will have an OPPORTUNITY to become Jehovah's Witnesses and receive salvation? And if they refuse to become Jehovah's Witnesses, what does that mean? They do NOT gain salvation, right?

That is called READING COMPREHENSION...No one is making up anything. Don't have to...when there is so much falsehood coming from the Watch Tower that all one have to do is open up a Watch Tower or Awake magazine, and the words within it will speak falsely for itself.

And if my assessemnt is inaccurate, then simply explain to me why. Go ahead. I urge you.

Do you know what they call a person that teaches others the exact opposite of what they have been told? It's not a nice title.

Do you know what they call "prophets" who make prophecies that don't come true? False prophets. Jehovah's Witnesses are known for their MANY false prophecies and what did God say about false prophets??

Duet 18:21-22..

21 “But you may wonder, ‘How will we know whether or not a prophecy is from the Lord?’ 22 If the prophet speaks in the Lord’s name but his prediction does not happen or come true, you will know that the Lord did not give that message. That prophet has spoken without my authority and need not be feared.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 321 by For_The_Kingdom]

So in other words you're going to believe whatever it is you want to believe, gottcha. Well, I can't stop you from calling me a liar. All I can do is hope others will read what I have posted and see that I'm not lying. I have a website article and even a talk on the subject as evidence as to what Witnesses believe. You on the other hand claim to see 'subliminal messages' as your evidence. Whatever...

[2timothy316]

There is ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, NO SCRIPTURE that supports the FALSE NOTION of a second chance AFTER one is resurrected. In the article that YOU posted, it doesn't give a scripture for it...yet it clearly gives a scripture for something that has absolutely nothing to do with salvation, such as the "resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous".

Wait what? You don't think that the "resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous" has nothing to do with salvation? Then why resurrect them? Why not just keep the unrighteous dead in the ground? You're not making any sense. It's a second chance at living for those that never had a first chance at eternal life. Isn't this fair?

Are the following scriptures true?

“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

If Jesus didn't come so that all men can have a chance at life, even those that didn't get to know God, then God doesn't love the 'world' only a select few. You're saying that those that never got to know Jesus or Jehovah are doomed. If a person doesn't know who Jesus or Jehovah are, they can't put faith into them. What about those that are lied to about God and never hear the truth? Are they doomed as well? When a person dies are their sins not paid for as Romans 6:23 says? Does this sound like a God of justice?

[For_The_Kingdom]

Wait what? You don't think that the "resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous" has nothing to do with salvation? Then why resurrect them? Why not just keep the unrighteous dead in the ground? You're not making any sense.

What? The purpose of the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous is for JUDGEMENT!!! It says it right there in Revelations 20:4 when it talks about the resurrection of the "souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God."

And what does it say in verse 5? "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended"

And by verses 11-12, you see that the resurrected dead are now being JUDGED. What you don't see is any HINT of a second chance for anyone!!!

Are the following scriptures true?

“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." John 3:16

Yeah, we are all familiar with John 3:16...what does that have to do with a second chance??

And what does it say? "...so that everyone exercising faith in HIM (or more accurately whoever BELIEVES IN HIM) may not be destroyed (perish), but have ever lasting life.

What it doesn't say is "...so that everyone who is part of an organization known as the Watch & Tract Society may not perish, but have everlasting life".

So, according to the actual holy inspired scriptures of the Living God, I don't need to belong to your organization, or ANY organization for that matter...all I need to do is belong to Jesus Christ.

In other words, you guys (JW's) can stop all of that "we have the truth" / "the truth is over here with us" stuff...because that is not what the Bible says.

Jesus said that HE is the TRUTH (John 14:6)..and by following him I have the TRUTH. We (Christians) don't need a man-made organization to act as a chaser between Jesus and God.

We (Christians) go by what Jesus say, not what the Watch Tower say.

"For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

And?

If Jesus didn't come so that all men can have a chance at life, even those that didn't get to know God, then Jesus didn't die for all men. You're saying that those that never got to know Jesus or Jehovah are doomed. If a person doesn't know who Jesus or Jehovah are, they can't put faith into them.

Straw man. First of all, I am not talking about those that never heard of Christ..obviously, the fair God that I worship will only hold people accountable for what they knew/know, NOT what they don't know or what they never knew.

I am talking about those that willfully reject Christian doctrine...according to JW's, they will get a second chance too, right?

What about those that are lied to about God and never hear the truth? Are they doomed as well?

God is fair and just, and he will judge according to how he see fit. The point is, there is no doctrine of second chances...none whatsover, and for you to push a false doctrine, you are the one that is part of the "lying" problem..because that kind of teaching has no basis in Christian theology.

When a person dies are their sins not paid for as Romans 6:23 says? Does this sound like a God of justice?

The atonement for sin is conditional...it is based upons a person acknowledgement and acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior...once you do that, you get the free gift of eternal life, according to the scriptures.

Anything beyond that is apostasy.

[onewithhim]

Talking about being a Christian, true Christians know what the main theme of the Bible is right from the moment of disobedience of Adam and Eve and the charge that Jehovah put on Satan.

This is the charge:

taken from JW.org

When Adam and Eve sinned, it may have appeared that Jehovah’s purpose to have an earthly paradise inhabited by perfect humans had been thwarted. But God immediately addressed the problem. He said: “I shall put enmity between you [the serpent] and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.�—Genesis 3:15.

These were puzzling, cryptic words. Who was this woman? Who was the serpent? Who was the “seed� that would bruise the serpent’s head? Adam and Eve could only guess. Still, God’s words provided hope for any faithful offspring of that unfaithful pair. Righteousness would triumph. Jehovah’s purpose would be realized. But how? Ah, that was a mystery! The Bible calls it “God’s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom.�—1 Corinthians 2:7.

Excellent point, that Jehovah's purpose to have an earthly paradise inhabited by perfect humans was not thwarted. It will be fulfilled. At the beginning of the human race on Earth, Jehovah's word was that mankind will "fill the earth and subdue it/ take care of it." (Genesis 1:28; 2:15) That was his purpose and his "word." In Isaiah, He said this about His word:

"So my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it." (Isaiah 55:11)

The earthly paradise would be successful, still.

[onewithhim]

Thanks for the clarification, I agree that Jehovah's Witnesses are Christians...so let me redirect the OP now primarily to Evangelicals. (all are welcome to opine as well)

How can you say that Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians? What, in your minds, defines a "Christian"?

Biblically speaking, a Christian is a person that recognizes/accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and believe that he died on the cross for the sins of mankind.

Jehovah's Witnesses claim that they are Christians, but their theology is based primarily on allegiance to the organzation as opposed to allegiance to Christ. For example, they don't believe that you can have Jesus Christ in your life if you are NOT part of the Watch Tower & Tract Society.

If I have to be part of a man-made organization to accept Christ, then that contradicts what Jesus said when he said that he is"THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE, NO MAN CAN COME TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME" (John 14:6).

But Jehovah's Witnesses believe that in order to gain salvation, you have to be part of their organization (Watch Tower).

That is the reason why people may not consider JW's Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses theology is NOT based on "allegience to the organization." We support the organization, but our theology is based on allegience to Christ. We believe whole-heartedly that Jesus is the only way to the Father.

I personally believe that many people will be spared at Armageddon because they didn't know or understand the truth about God. People who never were a "part of the organization." They will be taught about Jehovah and Jesus during the Thousand-Year Reign, and everyone on Earth will be subjects of their Kingdom, if they, in the end, choose to accept Jehovah as the universal Sovereign.

After the Thousand-Year Reign, Jesus "hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when he has abolished all rule and authority and power [of men]. For he must reign until He has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when He says, 'All things are put in subjection,' it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to him.When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to him, so that God [the Father] may be all in all." (I Corinthians 15:24-28, NASB, brackets mine)

"...The earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea." (Isaiah 11:9, Darby)

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 321 by For_The_Kingdom]

You just won't take timothy's clear word, will you. I'm afraid you are, at this time, one of those folks that is just not humble ("meek," teachable).

QUESTION: What is wrong with timothy's link? It clears up any confusion about people's salvation, and leaves the final judgments to Jesus.

How is it based on "falsehoods"?


FINAL THOUGHT: You are throwing into the discussion the old tired accusation that JWs have been wrong in their "prophecies," and therefore they must be "false prophets." A lot can be and has been said to clear up any misunderstanding about that. I will not go into detail now, but the basic points are:

(1) The WTS does not claim to be a "prophet." A prophet is someone who gets a message directly from God. The WTS does not claim to get any message directly from God. The men of the WTS pray for direction and then consult the Bible. They then present their understanding of the Scriptures they consulted. The fact that they misunderstood what the Scriptures seemed to be saying about the time for going to heaven (1914) or the end of the world alienated from God (1975), doesn't make them "false prophets." The Catholic Church and the Methodists' founders are two groups that predicted the end of the world and got it wrong, yet who criticizes them for it?

(2) The WTS was interested in figuring out when the Great Tribulation would hit. So many others have wondered about this also. The brothers should, perhaps, have not speculated, and they have since declared that no one should try to figure it out. They were the only ones, however, that got it right about "the appointed times of the nations " being fulfilled in 1914. That was what was referred to by the prophet Daniel and spoken of again by Jesus at Luke 21:24 ("the times of the Gentiles," KJV). Who else even knows what that is referring to? Biblical chronology, carefully studied, pointed to 1914 as the year for God's Kingdom to once again turn its attention to the Earth. (Daniel 4:16,25; see the excellent book Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy by the WTS, or go to the website www.jw.org .) The brothers were relaying to the public what they thought was the message FROM a prophet telling the time for the end of the system, but that message, in actuality, only referred to the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled.

They were also the only ones at that time who recognized that 1975 marked the 6,000th year since Adam's creation. That is why they said that it would LIKELY be the end of the age. They simply forgot that EVE'S creation should be added into the mix, and the Bible didn't indicate when SHE was created.

So you see, when really explored, the "false prophecies" as you call them, are not that at all, and the WTS's innocent conjecturing actually was based on Scriptural indications, though not completely understood by them.

[marakorpa]

[Replying to post 312 by For_The_Kingdom]

The Catholics reckon you have to be a catholic before you can go to heaven.....Seems to be no problem

All other religions reckon that they are the only ones tha tare really Christians....Seems to be no problem.

Buddhists, Muslims, Shinto,all the ones under Indrea all say they are the only ones that offer salvation...Seems to be no problems.

The JWs do not say that you must give abeyance to the organization, and they accept Jesus more so than most religions that make him a part of an impossible trinity. The Jehovah Witnesses are just that, they give witness to Jehovah's purpose and pray to him through his only begotten son Jesus Christ...Your scripture covers this.

I am afraid that you have to receive this months trophy fro doing the twist.