Was Jesus and Paul wrong about the Second Coming?

[polonius]

Matt 24:34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

Matt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt 26:64 Jesus said to him in reply, “You have said so.[a] But I tell you: From now on you will see ‘the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming on the clouds of heaven.’�

1Thes 4:15-17 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 59 by Elijah John]



Matthew, 16.27,28
Quote:
27.For the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what has been done. 28.Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

"Repay" as in retribution, for good or ill. Sure sounds like judgement to me. //


Let's stay with 'repay' as in cause and effect, what yu sow yu reap.
But in Christinity there is forgiveness and turning from the evil path towards the good path.
Isn't it like that today in our natural world?
It is basically seperating the evil doers (child abusers, murderers, haters), from good doers; there aren't too many ways of saying it.
Without these laws we could not live as a society.
Can we expect heaven to be different?

"he will repay", as in the "Son of Man (Jesus) will repay. That sounds like Jesus arriving in judgement upon his 2nd coming. Hasn't happened yet, this despite Jesus prediction that it would happen in the lifetime of his own apostles. Those apostles died thousands of years ago.

So the inescapable conclusion seems to be one of two things:

1) Either Jesus is not God, since God cannot be wrong about anything, or:

2) The Bible is not perfect and infallible, and this passage (and others) reflects the human understanding of it's authors who expected Jesus 2nd coming to occur in their own lifetimes. They, in effect, put words on Jesus lips.

But neither of those two likely conclusions necessitate the non-existence of God Himself, (YHVH)

[tam]

The verse does not mention returning in judgment.

Matthew, 16.27,28

27.For the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what has been done. 28.Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

"Repay" as in retribution, for good or ill. Sure sounds like judgement to me.

Repay for good does not sound like a judgment to me. But I understand what you are saying.

I was speaking of verse 28.

"Some standing here" meaning his contemporaries, (apostles) not the reader.

Yes, that is also what I understand. Some standing there would not taste death before they saw Him coming in His Kingdom.

Such as those who saw Him ascend (after He had been given all authority and power, after His death and resurrection). They were alive still when they saw that. Such as John as well, who saw Him both receive His Kingdom AND saw Him returning in His Kingdom on the Lord's day (in Revelation). He was alive when he saw this.


If someone wants to suggest that this doesn't count because it was a vision, remember that Christ said that Abraham had seen His day as well.

"Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." John 8:56


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Claire Evans]

Matt 24:34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

Matt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt 26:64 Jesus said to him in reply, “You have said so.[a] But I tell you: From now on you will see ‘the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming on the clouds of heaven.’�

1Thes 4:15-17 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Leading up to Matthew 24: 34, Jesus is clearly making a prophecy of the future not within the life-time of the disciples. He is referring to what will happen at the end of the age.

In Matthew 24:3 in Greek:

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,� they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?�

Καθημένου δὲ α�τοῦ �πὶ τοῦ ὄ�ους τῶν Ἐλαιῶν π�οσῆλθον α�τῷ οἱ μαθηταὶ κατ’ ἰδίαν λέγοντες Εἰπὲ ἡμῖν, πότε ταῦτα ἔσται, καὶ τί τὸ σημεῖον τῆς σῆς πα�ουσίας καὶ συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος;


αἰῶνος is an age, not a generation of people living in one's lifetime. Jesus cannot be saying what will happen in an age, which is an interval of time, a whole duration of the human race and then suddenly say it is within their life-time.


"All three Synoptic Gospels open the Olivet Discourse with a reference to the destruction of the Temple and continue with a very similar set of signs. The main difference in Luke is that he omits the odd ‘abomination’ reference and replaces it with the siege of Jerusalem, something better known to his Gentile readers.

Luke must be referring to the Temple destruction in 70 AD because it was not destroyed during the siege of Jerusalem. Luke concentrated more on the fall of the Temple rather than the end of the age.

The significance of these differences becomes clear as one carefully compares the accounts. Luke emphasizes the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 in a way the other Gospels do not. All the Synoptics anticipate the fall of Jerusalem in the way they introduce the discourse, but Luke focuses on the short-term event in a way Matthew and Mark do not. His temporal indicators (vv. 9, 12) draw the reader back toward the present before really focusing on the end in verses 25-28. A transition begins to appear in verses 20-24, but until verse 19 the focus is still on events before the judgment of the capital in A.D. 70, which is not yet the end.


The speech makes several points. First, Luke clearly shows how the destruction of A.D. 70 is distinct from but related to the end. The two events should not be confused, but Jerusalem's destruction, when it comes, will guarantee as well as picture the end, since one event mirrors the other. Both are a part of God's plan as events move toward the end.

I think that the Jews thought that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD meant the end of the age while Luke was insinuating differently. The other gospels were thinking that the destruction of the temple meant the end of the age was near while Luke is saying that the is saying that it is not something that is going to happen in succession.

"Two features of this discourse should not be overlooked. First, in verses 8-12 Jesus works from the end backwards and then in verse 25 leaps forward again in time, beyond Jerusalem's destruction to the end. Such a rewinding backwards in time is clear in light of the statement in verse 9 that the end will not come right away and the note in verse 12 that before all this--that is, the events of verses 8-11--other things will occur. With verse 12 and following, Jesus moves forward again, toward the description of Jerusalem's fall and the persecution that will accompany it. The issues of the end and the return of the Son of Man are deferred mostly until verse 25, with the reference to the times of the Gentiles in verse 24 serving as a transition into Jesus' statements about the end times. After Jerusalem falls, the period of Gentile rule will continue until the Son of Man returns."

So it will be at the end. When these cosmic signs are displayed, Jesus' followers can rest assured the end is near. In fact, when the whole discourse is taken into account, Jerusalem's fall--predicted as it is and mirroring the end as it does--also serves as a sign guaranteeing that what Jesus says about the end and redemption will come to pass. So Jesus says to look for two things: the fall of Jerusalem and cosmic signs. With these heavenly portents (vv. 25-26), the kingdom of God is near. In this text Luke speaks of the kingdom as not yet arrived, in contrast to earlier texts where it had already approached or come (10:9, 18; 11:20; 17:20). As has been noted, Luke sees the kingdom in two phases: an initial, already-present phase and a consummating, yet-to-come phase. The consummation will wrap up the promise in total fulfillment. Anticipation will become realization. The kingdom will be present in its fullness.

This will explain why the Jews believed that Jesus would come back in their life-time because they didn't distinguish what would happen in their generation and events to come way into the future. In the other gospels, generation was seen as the current generation. It is true that the destruction of Jerusalem happened in their generation. However, they went onto assume that this meant the end of the age would be in their generation also. Luke doesn't agree with that. "


https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/ ... uction-End

Therefore, the belief of the Jews that the fall of Jerusalem immediately precedes the second coming would obviously meant that Paul believed Jesus would come back in his life-time. We know that it was wrong. I think they desperately wanted to believe it but they didn't understand what Jesus meant. It was a case of them wanting them to believe it.

[Monta]

[Replying to tam]

"Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." John 8:56

On sideline, here Abraham had a thought, in kjv bellow he 'saw'.
Big gifference.

kjv: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day; and He saw it and was glad.�

[Elijah John]

What extraordinary evidence would you expect to see of an invisible event that happened in heaven?

SOMETHING...

Firstly, my understanding is that Mormons claim Jesus physically descended from heaven and went to America. Jehovah's Witnesses are simply saying something significant happened in heaven, unseen by humans; they do NOT say Jesus came or visited the earth, he remains in heaven as a spirit during his presence, never changing location at all.

But you are right, since the events were invisible Jesus' disciples asked for SOMETHING... a sign, "something" that humans would be able to observe on the earth that would indicate that invisible event had happened in the spirit realm. They asked "what will be a sign of your "parousia"?" (obviously they wouldn't need a "sign" or his presence if "every eye could see him").

Before I read those chapters, tell me exactly which verses in each "indicate that we are indeed living during the time of Jesus parousia".

Matthew 24 verses 3 to 14
Luke chapter 21 verse 11
and Mark 13 verses 4 through 8

Further reading
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... last-days/

You and modern JWs may make the disctinction between the parousia and the 2nd coming, but please demonstrate that CT Russell made that same distinction. Didn't Russell predict Christ's 2nd coming in 1914, and when that did not happen, revise his prediction to mean a an invisible, spiritual return?

Something conveniently unverifiable?

Or am I misunderstanding?

Here are the proof texts of the verses you provided:

MT.24-3-14

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,� they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?�

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Luke 21.11

11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

Mark 13.4-8

4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?�

5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

Yes there are wars today, and natural disasters, but such has been the case for hundreds of years. And religious cult leaders. (false prophets). But I don't recall too many folks who have claimed to be Jesus, none that were taken seriously.

And Jesus refers to kingdom rising against kingdom. With a few exceptions like Great Britain, the age of kingdoms is over and an anachronism.

More evidence that Jesus expected the end times to occur long ago.

so please demonstrate how the verses you provided support your case.

Sorry for the delayed response, but...there it is.

[polonius]

JW posted:

'...there are no biblical errors.

Some people try to argue this despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Let take one example and compare four different biblical accounts of the same incident.

Entrance to Jerusalem

Matt 21 1-7 1 And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and came unto Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples,
2 saying unto them, Go into the village that is over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose [them], and bring [them] unto me.
3 And if any one say aught unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.
4 Now this is come to pass, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophet, saying,
5 Tell ye the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, Meek, and riding upon an ass, And upon a colt the foal of an ass.
6 And the disciples went, and did even as Jesus appointed them,
7 and brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their garments; and he sat thereon.


Mark 11-1-9 1 And when they draw nigh unto Jerusalem, unto Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount of Olives, he sendeth two of his disciples,
2 and saith unto them, Go your way into the village that is over against you: and straightway as ye enter into it, ye shall find a colt tied, whereon no man ever yet sat; loose him, and bring him.
3 And if any one say unto you, Why do ye this? say ye, The Lord hath need of him; and straightway he will send him back hither.
4 And they went away, and found a colt tied at the door without in the open street; and they loose him.
5 And certain of them that stood there said unto them, What do ye, loosing the colt?
6 And they said unto them even as Jesus had said: and they let them go.
7 And they bring the colt unto Jesus, and cast on him their garments; and he sat upon him.
8 And many spread their garments upon the way; and others branches, which they had cut from the fields.
9 And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, Hosanna; Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord:

Luke 28-36 And when he had thus spoken, he went on before, going up to Jerusalem.
29 And it came to pass, when he drew nigh unto Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount that is called Olivet, he sent two of the disciples,
30 saying, Go your way into the village over against [you]; in which as ye enter ye shall find a colt tied, whereon no man ever yet sat: loose him, and bring him.
31 And if any one ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say, The Lord hath need of him.
32 And they that were sent went away, and found even as he had said unto them.
33 And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt?
34 And they said, The Lord hath need of him.
35 And they brought him to Jesus: and they threw their garments upon the colt, and set Jesus thereon.
36 And as he went, they spread their garments in the way.

John 12:12-15 On the morrow a great multitude that had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
13 took the branches of the palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried out, Hosanna: Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel.
14 And Jesus, having found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,
15 Fear not, daughter of Zion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

Summary: The author of Matthews's gospel tries to create a prophecy fulfillment (remember "there are no biblical errors")

But Matthew misunderstood the prophecy. Thus God allows him to create a contradiction, an error in the Bible.

There are others, but even one disproves JW's claim. Q.E.D.

[Elijah John]

JW posted:

'...there are no biblical errors.

Some people try to argue this despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. ....

Summary: The author of Matthews's gospel tries to create a prophecy fulfillment (remember "there are no biblical errors")

But Matthew misunderstood the prophecy. Thus God allows him to create a contradiction, an error in the Bible.

There are others, but even one disproves JW's claim. Q.E.D.

We have a whole thread dedicated to Biblical errors here, launched by the line you quoted:

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=31430

I would ask JW and other advocates of Biblical infallibility, what threatening implications do you percieve if the Bible does indeed contain some errors?

-does it necessarily mean that YHVH God doesn't exist?

-that Jesus is not God?

-that God never demanded blood in order to forgive?

-that there is no life beyond the grave?

-does the whole JW organization have to disband?

Does an imperfect Bible necessitate the above conclusions? Does the whole edifice of faith necessarily collapse?

I guess I am trying to understand why JWs and Evangelicals are so wedded to the the notion of a perfect and infallible Bible, in the face of clear and contrary evidence.

[tam]

[Replying to tam]

"Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." John 8:56

On sideline, here Abraham had a thought, in kjv bellow he 'saw'.
Big gifference.

kjv: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day; and He saw it and was glad.�

Thank you! That makes the point even more clear.

I tend to quote the NIV because it is the version I am most familiar with, but I have found that it takes a few liberties with translation.


Peace to you Monta,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[polonius]

[Replying to tam]

"Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." John 8:56

On sideline, here Abraham had a thought, in kjv bellow he 'saw'.
Big gifference.

kjv: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day; and He saw it and was glad.�

Thank you! That makes the point even more clear.

I tend to quote the NIV because it is the version I am most familiar with, but I have found that it takes a few liberties with translation.


Peace to you Monta,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

RESPONSE: A number of Bible take some liberties so that scripture can be claimed to support their beliefs.

I'd recommend you consider using either the New Revised Standard Bible (World Council of Churches), or the New American Bible Revised Edition (Catholic). Both of these Bibles use the oldest extant sources in their original languages.

Not too surprisingly, they are nearly identical. In fact, the Catholic church now approves a New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition.

I generally use the NRSV but also like the NAB because of its extensive footnotes and introductions (backgrounds) of the various books of the bible.

Both are on line.

[JehovahsWitness]

-does it necessarily mean that YHVH God doesn't exist?

No, but it means He's incompetent. Or stupid. Or both.

It means Jehovah inspired scripture (put his thoughts, instructions, guidance and prophecies) to be recorded for the guidance and salvation of mankind but didn't have the intelligence or the forethought to know that if it were allowed to be corrupted it would not serve its purpose. This would be rather like a mother preparing a meal for her children, and not ensuring that the dog didn't eat it; or saying "Well the dog eat some of if but there's "still some good stuff there", just pick off the bits with dog saliva on it and eat the rest...

It would mean that God sent his son to earth, to save mankind and teach them but didn't have the intelligence to know that we wouldn't have an accurate record of what would be the single most important act in the universe, if it were not accurately recorded and preserved. How can we build trust in Jesus if we don't know anything about him or even if he existed? How can we follow the teachings of Christ if they are nowhere to be read. How can we trust the book where they are to be read if they contain errors and corruptions? Why would God allow that to happen? Indifference? Incompetence? Did God not know that people would have to be ready to die in defense of what they read about this man? How can they be expected to do so if right next to the verse that is proven to be utter nonsense?


It would mean that JEHOVAH isn't actually Jehovah at all. Because the name means, "He causes to become" meaning he can become anything he wants to to achieve his purpose: author, editor, recorder, preserver, protector... and he can make anything or anyone be whatever he wants to in order to achieve his purpose.

His express purpose is that mankind have access to his written word. He sent his prophets to explicitly write down HIS words to instruct his people, not just at the time of writing, but for all future generations (compare Daniel 12:4), was He was too shortsighted, too powerless, too overcome by the imperfection of his "human secretaries", "copiests" or enemies that would want to erradicate God's Words from the face of the earth to protect it for those future generations? If so then JEHOVAH isn't who he claims to be (see Isaiah 55: 8-11).

Not only would he be a fake "Jehovah'', not only would that make him weak, stupid and shortsighted, it would make him unable to do what any author, such a JK Rowlins can do, ie ensure that what was written, is what will be read.

1 PETER 1:25
The word of the Lord endures forever

MATTHEW 4:4
It is written: Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.

JW





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